[Enhancement] Rawr.Enhance thread - Page 11

Levva · 10/15/09, 7:39 PM

Originally Posted by Alandovos

Why is the flameShockNormal damaged calculated based on spell hit only in the glyphed case? Shouldn't the value be modified by spell hit in both cases?

Yup well spotted.

Originally Posted by Rouncer

Flame shock is 21.42% on the DD and 10% per tick on the DoT, so 60% over all ticks. Only thing I'm not sure about with your code is how does it know that it can't use Flame Shock again until that DoT has run out or is that what the cooldown parts are specifying?

Yes the AbilityCooldown function is basically working out how long you are actually taking between reapplying FS on average. Typically its 18.8-19.2 seconds. ie: within a relatively short delay of the last dot tick. Usually due to MW5 being available or some other thing like that.

Levva · 10/16/09, 7:08 AM

Ok so with the revised code...

            float damageFSBase = 500f;
            float damageFSDoTBase = 834f;
            float coefFS = .2142f;
            float coefFSDoT = .6f;
            float damageFS = (damageFSBase + coefFS * spellPower) * concussionMultiplier;
            float damageFTDoT = (damageFSDoTBase + coefFSDoT * spellPower) * concussionMultiplier;
            float usesCooldown = cs.AbilityCooldown(EnhanceAbility.FlameShock);
            float flameShockdps = (damageFS + damageFTDoT) / usesCooldown;
            float flameShockNormal = flameShockdps * cs.ChanceSpellHit;
            float flameShockCrit = 0f;
            if (character.ShamanTalents.GlyphofFlameShock)
            {
                flameShockNormal = flameShockdps * cs.SpellHitModifier;
                flameShockCrit = flameShockdps * cs.SpellCritModifier * cs.CritMultiplierSpell;
            }
            float dpsFS = (flameShockNormal + flameShockCrit) * bonusFireDamage * bossFireResistance * shockBonus;

I'm getting FS glyph coming out really quite strong, above Windfury & Feral Spirits glyphs.

We can try out some numbers...Lets take around 3.2k SP (as per current BiS list) and 43% spell crit, of course spell hit capped. We get...

damageFS = (500 + .2142*3200) * 1.05 = 1244.712
damageFSDoT = (834 + .6*3200) * 1.05 = 2891.7

if we assume the average time between uses is 19 seconds (no clipping plus up to 1 sec delay due to GCD interference) we get...

flameShockDPS = (1244.712 + 2891.7) / 19 = 217.706

For unglyphed and spell hit cap all that's left is to get total dps

dpsFS = 217.706 * 1.1639 * .971785 * 1.25 (these are the dps, bonus fire damage, boss fire resistance and T9 4 pc shock bonus.
dpsFS = 307.798 dps total (unglyphed)

Now lets see the effect of the glyph...

flameShockNormal = 217.706 * .57 = 124.092 (if 43% is crit then 57% is regular hits)
flameShockCrit = 217.706 * .43 * 2.06 = 192.844 (2.06 is the bonus damage on a crit assuming 5/5 Elemental Fury and 3% crit meta gem)

so total dps is ...

dpsFS = (124.092 + 192.844) * 1.1639 * .971785 * 1.25
dpsFS = 448.092 dps (glyphed)

ie: the Flame Shock glyph is adding 140.294 dps!! This is a very significant boost and is working out more than Feral Spririts and Windfury Weapon.

Have I gone wrong somewhere? Thoughts?

darkInertia · 10/16/09, 4:19 PM

Shouldn't you include the crit damage of the direct-damage part, when you calculate the damage without the glyph?

So that would be:

damageFS = (500 + .2142*3200) * 1.05 = 1244.712

damageFS = (1244.712 * .57) + (1244.712 * .43 * 2.06) = 1802.052

flameShockDPS = (1802.052 + 2891.7) / 19 = 247.566

For unglyphed and spell hit cap all that's left is to get total dps

dpsFS = 247.566 * 1.1639 * .971785 * 1.25 (these are the dps, bonus fire damage, boss fire resistance and T9 4 pc shock bonus.
dpsFS = 350.015 dps total (unglyphed)

The glyphed calculations would be the same; so with these numbers the glyph would be adding 98.078 DPS.

This also assumes more or less a fight where you are dpsing a single target for a long period of time. If you are switching off to adds (such as the snobolds (beasts), or portals, volcanos, mistresses, or infernals (in jara)) where your dps target would die before the 18 sec, then the dps gain from the glyph would be lower (as well as the overall damage of the flame shock).

Saanu · 10/16/09, 7:07 PM

Not related to the current Flame Shock discussion, but there appears to be a bug in the import/export function between Rawr and armory/EnhSim. On armory and on my in-game character sheet, it says I have 4669 AP and 1400 SP (unbuffed); however, when I import my stats from armory using Rawr and export them to EnhSim, it creates an EnhSim template with only 4653 AP and 1396 SP. It also isn't transferring over the Flame Shock glyph that I have equipped.

All other stats seem to be transferring correctly. Tested using Rawr v2.2.23 and v2.2.18 with EnhSim 1.8.4a.

Raut · 10/16/09, 8:58 PM

Originally Posted by darkInertia

This also assumes more or less a fight where you are dpsing a single target for a long period of time. If you are switching off to adds (such as the snobolds (beasts), or portals, volcanos, mistresses, or infernals (in jara)) where your dps target would die before the 18 sec, then the dps gain from the glyph would be lower (as well as the overall damage of the flame shock).

Not really. If you are fighting a lot of mobs you can DoT three targets for added effect of the glyph(four/five if points in Reverb and/or you are slow due to GCD capped so not to clip). If you are facing smaller, fast-dieing mobs your FS is still ticking away at the primary target. For personal DPS you can even add a mouse-over macro to reapply FS on the primary target if you so wish. Probably not a stellar idea as you changed your target for a reason but switching from, say Jaraxxus just as you FS is expiring, you can apply it and have it tick regularly.

Short version: Multi targets fights does not equal a FS DPS loss. It's situational.

(Edit: effect, not affect)

Levva · 10/18/09, 9:11 PM

Originally Posted by darkInertia

Shouldn't you include the crit damage of the direct-damage part, when you calculate the damage without the glyph?

Yup very good point the code as currently implemented doesn't have the base damage able to crit I'll have to amend that.

Originally Posted by Saanu

Not related to the current Flame Shock discussion, but there appears to be a bug in the import/export function between Rawr and armory/EnhSim. On armory and on my in-game character sheet, it says I have 4669 AP and 1400 SP (unbuffed); however, when I import my stats from armory using Rawr and export them to EnhSim, it creates an EnhSim template with only 4653 AP and 1396 SP. It also isn't transferring over the Flame Shock glyph that I have equipped.

All other stats seem to be transferring correctly. Tested using Rawr v2.2.23 and v2.2.18 with EnhSim 1.8.4a.

Flame shock wasn't implemented in Rawr.Enhance v2.2.23 hence no export of glyph. Re difference in AP. Interesting I'll have to try out your character - can you PM me your name, server, and region pls.

Rouncer · 10/18/09, 9:36 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

Flame shock wasn't implemented in Rawr.Enhance v2.2.23 hence no export of glyph. Re difference in AP. Interesting I'll have to try out your character - can you PM me your name, server, and region pls.

Probably needs to update his item list since some of the lists are missing the socket bonuses.

Levva · 10/19/09, 7:32 AM

Ah of course. General note to all Rawr users. The ItemCache file is your local file of data and there are tools provided to update these items - eg: Load possible upgrades from Wowhead/Armoury, Update Item cache from Wowhead/Armoury, update item from wowhead/armoury, Tools | Edit items etc.

Now unfortunately the XML from the Armoury is broken and doesn't include the socket bonuses, this means that sometimes if you only do an update from armoury the socket bonuses will have disappeared/not have been loaded. To fix this for all items run and update item cache from Wowhead or right click the individual item and choose upgrade item from wowhead.

This will fix missing socket bonus errors, which is usually where small differences between your character sheet and Rawr exist. In fact with any new version its worth just checking the items on your character to ensure the socket bonuses are listed. Personally I always do a full "Update Item Cache from Wowhead" with any new release.

Saanu · 10/19/09, 12:17 PM

I updated my item cache from wowhead as was suggested, but the problem still persists. It might be worth noting that I got a few errors while performing the update that took the general form of "Unable to update 'XXXXX' due to an error:Index was outside the bounds of the array," typically for set items (i.e. all heroes, valorous(naxx), valorous(ulduar), conqueror's(ulduar), etc.) and relic slot items. I'm assuming this isn't normal behavior and might(?) be a problem on wowhead's end. Either way, I'm guessing it's probably what's preventing me from fixing the issue.

Seeing as there's a 16 AP deficit, I'm going to assume it isn't tracking the socket bonus in my helm at this time. Here's my armory link for reference:

The World of Warcraft Armory

Levva · 10/19/09, 12:34 PM

Simply bother to actually look at the item tooltip to know if its your helm that is the problem!! Seriously I can't be expected to hand hold everyone. Something as basic as does the tooltip say the right thing HAS to be something the user bothers to look at.

From your problems it sounds like your itemcache is seriously buggered. When you installed v2.2.23 you did actually install into a fresh folder didn't you? You didn't just pour the new version into the old directory and hope the mix would work?

Rouncer · 10/19/09, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

From your problems it sounds like your itemcache is seriously buggered. When you installed v2.2.23 you did actually install into a fresh folder didn't you? You didn't just pour the new version into the old directory and hope the mix would work?

I was getting that same error with the current build this morning and I know I downloaded it into a fresh folder. I even just downloaded the new build at work and tried to update with the same results.

Saanu · 10/19/09, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

Simply bother to actually look at the item tooltip to know if its your helm that is the problem!! Seriously I can't be expected to hand hold everyone. Something as basic as does the tooltip say the right thing HAS to be something the user bothers to look at.

From your problems it sounds like your itemcache is seriously buggered. When you installed v2.2.23 you did actually install into a fresh folder didn't you? You didn't just pour the new version into the old directory and hope the mix would work?

At no point have I asked anyone to hold my hand, so you can put an end to your worries. I was simply running short on time when I made my last post and didn't bother to check the tooltip of my helm within the Rawr program. It seemed like a reasonable assumption to make at the time, considering the socket bonus was equal to the missing attack power, and I have since then confirmed my initial assumption.

My only interest in posting in this thread was to bring attention to a "possible" bug. Yes, it was installed into a fresh folder; however, since you suggested it might be a problem with my particular installation, I have gone through the motions of wiping all traces of Rawr from my system and reinstalling it. I still get the same error messages when I try to update my item cache.

In the interim, I've edited the item in question to include the +16 attack power socket bonus for my own purposes.

Levva · 10/19/09, 7:12 PM

Originally Posted by Saanu

At no point have I asked anyone to hold my hand, so you can put an end to your worries. I was simply running short on time when I made my last post and didn't bother to check the tooltip of my helm within the Rawr program. It seemed like a reasonable assumption to make at the time, considering the socket bonus was equal to the missing attack power, and I have since then confirmed my initial assumption.

My only interest in posting in this thread was to bring attention to a "possible" bug. Yes, it was installed into a fresh folder; however, since you suggested it might be a problem with my particular installation, I have gone through the motions of wiping all traces of Rawr from my system and reinstalling it. I still get the same error messages when I try to update my item cache.

In the interim, I've edited the item in question to include the +16 attack power socket bonus for my own purposes.

Apologies for snapping at you. I moderate the MMO Champion forums and had just spent the previous hour banning people and generally deleting some of the most clueless drivel you could imagine. Although if you ever read the Blizzard forums you'll have a pretty good idea of the sort of clueless drivel I mean. I then settled down to read the Shaman forum there that I spend a lot of time on and had to deal with someone who simply didn't think that reading the FAQ provided should apply to them.

So you can imagine perhaps that the very first message I read on EJ sounds in the same sort of vein that something just popped

Anyway sorry again. It is one of the more common FAQ for Rawr that itemcache gets screwed due to things like armoury offline or wowhead data inconsistencies. It is due to get worse over next 4-5 weeks as we move into a period of hundreds of new items on the PTR for patch 3.3.

I'll investigate the error further. Meantime can you post an issue Rawr - Issue Tracker on the "Update item from wowhead" error stating the steps you took. This code is in the Rawr.Base code and so could potentially affect many many people.

Asirae · 10/20/09, 3:52 AM

Go ahead and delete this post if it is stupid.

I see there is a paypal donate button for Rawr, but is there a SAA donation? I would like to give $10 USD to see Shock and Awe continued in the future.

Levva · 10/20/09, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Asirae

Go ahead and delete this post if it is stupid.

I see there is a paypal donate button for Rawr, but is there a SAA donation? I would like to give $10 USD to see Shock and Awe continued in the future.

Many thanks for the offer of support but seriously I have an exceptionally well paid job, that even allows me time to spend visiting forums and updating Rawr.Enhance/ShockAndAwe etc. So whilst the sentiment is appreciated the actual cash would be better going to a charity.

♦ pewsey · 10/22/09, 12:50 AM

I would like to understand why RAWR and EnhSim are providing significantly different results in their direction of gearing. RAWR would like me to equip and use as much haste as possible, including dropping Mjolnir for Elemental Focus Stone. When I correlate that with what EnhSim tells me, EnhSim isn't so enthused.

Brief outputs from EnhSim are ; AP gems + Mjolnir > ArP Gems + Mjolnir > Haste Gems + Elemental

I've always trusted EnhSim as a source of truth, and used RAWR for the 'working gear out' - but up until recently the 2 have been consistent with their direction. Please be clear with my understanding - I don't care about the 'dps numbers' that come out of the 2 sims. It's more that the 2 models are potentially conflicting in their advice.

Which internal model should I trust? According to EnhSim if I regem to AP+Mjolnir over my current setup I'll pick up 60dps which isn't small cheese. (6710-6770)

[e] Reran the sims at home - I'd made some config errors in my rotation which was dumb.

Levva · 10/22/09, 6:10 AM

Originally Posted by pewsey

I would like to understand why RAWR and EnhSim are providing significantly different results in their direction of gearing. RAWR would like me to equip and use as much haste as possible, including dropping Mjolnir for Elemental Focus Stone. When I correlate that with what EnhSim tells me, EnhSim isn't so enthused.

Brief outputs from EnhSim are ; AP gems + Mjolnir > ArP Gems + Mjolnir > Haste Gems + Elemental

I've always trusted EnhSim as a source of truth, and used RAWR for the 'working gear out' - but up until recently the 2 have been consistent with their direction. Please be clear with my understanding - I don't care about the 'dps numbers' that come out of the 2 sims. It's more that the 2 models are potentially conflicting in their advice.

Which internal model should I trust? According to EnhSim if I regem to AP+Mjolnir over my current setup I'll pick up 60dps which isn't small cheese. (6710-6770)

[e] Reran the sims at home - I'd made some config errors in my rotation which was dumb.

Is this still a problem? Or has fixing the config errors fixed things. If it is still a problem please provide your Rawr XML save file and your EnhSim config.txt file so I can investigate. Without those files the best I can do is pure guesswork.

♦ pewsey · 10/22/09, 9:50 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

Is this still a problem? Or has fixing the config errors fixed things. If it is still a problem please provide your Rawr XML save file and your EnhSim config.txt file so I can investigate. Without those files the best I can do is pure guesswork.

I'll do some more checking and report back. The magnitude was much smaller (went from 300dps down to 60dps) but the vector is still diverging.

Levva · 10/22/09, 9:20 PM

Advanced notice of several major new additions to Rawr.Enhance in v2.2.24.

Added Flame Shock
Added Flame Shock Glyph
Added Simulation for mana usage
Added user customisable priority queue
Added user customisable Graphing option to view the effect of adding/subtracting stats to/from your kit. With this you should never need EP values again.

♦ pewsey · 10/22/09, 9:37 PM

regem3 sets = hand optimised using EnhSim based on the gear I have
regem3-optimise sets = using the RAWR optimiser (taking Elemental Focus stone and haste gems)

regem3-optimise results in a 30 dps loss. There's a minor issue with the optimiser in that I can't specify only a single weapon (I have 1xGrinder, but the optimiser chooses it for both MH and OH) so I swap in my Spinebreaker after the optimiser has finished.

Results from EnhSim were regem3 = 6859, regem3-optimise = 6825

(I think I've given you what you need - if you need more, PM me)

Zimeron · 10/23/09, 1:39 AM

Originally Posted by pewsey

There's a minor issue with the optimiser in that I can't specify only a single weapon

You can edit the item and put it as "unique" for the time being; that will help flesh out any differences.

Levva · 10/24/09, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by pewsey

regem3 sets = hand optimised using EnhSim based on the gear I have
regem3-optimise sets = using the RAWR optimiser (taking Elemental Focus stone and haste gems)

regem3-optimise results in a 30 dps loss. There's a minor issue with the optimiser in that I can't specify only a single weapon (I have 1xGrinder, but the optimiser chooses it for both MH and OH) so I swap in my Spinebreaker after the optimiser has finished.

Results from EnhSim were regem3 = 6859, regem3-optimise = 6825

(I think I've given you what you need - if you need more, PM me)

Yes a misunderstanding of how to use the optimiser I think. I've updated v2.2.24 to add a warning if you have weapons that are one-handed asking you if you want Rawr to assume there are two of them. Basically edit The Grinder and mark it unique if you only have one. (Tools | Edit item). {EDIT : It seems that the mage developer and the guy who wrote the optimiser - a genius btw - made a change to my warning message and broke it. It will now warn all the time even if you have marked the items as unique}

The optimiser will only result in a dps loss if it fails to find a better solution. The fact you didn't give it the right info to start means it will have been handicapped from the outset. Often getting a lower result is because things weren't marked as available. Check enchants etc to see that you did actually mark them available and that the result reflects this.

Having said that I'll check your file in Rawr. The new version 2.2.24 is out today did you use it or 2.2.23?

♦ pewsey · 10/25/09, 3:58 AM

2.2.23. Amusingly I got a second grinder from Insanity10 last night. However, while Rawr likes it, EnhSim doesn't so much. Lions Maw, Grinder and Spinebreaker all sim within 3dps of each other (in the MH).

Enchants etc are marked, gems are marked - all good questions, but I've been using Rawr for quite a while - and for the most part I've used the output directly rather than cross checking with EnhSim - but it started to give me results that I really wanted a second check on - so an enhance guildy and I were comparing results and gearing.

I've not quite explained it correctly. The optimiser tells me to "use haste" - which results in an increase in DPS in Rawr, but a 30dps loss in EnhSim. The issue I'm facing is - I don't know who to believe - I'm making (possibly mistakenly) the assumption that EnhSim is correct.

So, to recap. I'm using Rawr to perform optimisation - and it tells me to go from regem3 to use regem3-optimise. Comparing those sets in EnhSim results in a DPS loss of 30. Ie, my original premise that Rawr and EnhSim are 'moving in different directions' as Rawr seems to be quite besotted with Haste items.

Rouncer · 10/25/09, 11:41 AM

Levva, can you add an option to Rawr so that it won't send the priorities when exporting to EnhSim? Either that or add the remaining priorities so we can keep Rawr and EnhSim synched.

Maybe put check boxes on the export page so people can control what actually gets exported to EnhSim.

- Character Data
- Talents
- Buffs
- Priorities
- Fight Length

♦ pewsey · 10/25/09, 8:03 PM

Following up to my / Levva posts;

Downloaded latest versions of Rawr (23->24) and EnhSim (84->85).

Loaded regem3 into Rawr (dps of 8355) and exported to EnhSim - results were dps of 7647
Pressed optimise in Rawr (dps of 8459) and exported to EnhSim - results were dps of 7636

Optimise liked to equip my Elemental Focus stone and regem +haste around it.

Note again, I'm not fussed that there are DPS difference between Rawr and EnhSim - what is confusing is that they are moving in different directions. (Rawr goes up, EnhSim goes down)