[Enhancement] Rawr.Enhance thread - Page 13

Levva · 06/22/09, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by umbraltwilight

With 2.2.7 it seems like there is an extremely high emphasis on haste now compared to previous versions. I was just curious if this was intended or an error since I don't recall any changes to haste lately.

There is NEVER any emphasis on any stat. Rawr doesn't use EP values AT ALL. It uses a series of formulae. Now that I've implemented a model for GCDs it will probably be the case that upping your haste gives you a bit more GCDs and thus perhaps squeeze in extra abilities during the fight duration you specify. This is especially true if you are at one of the haste brackets where the graph swings upwards rapidly.

Haste is known to be a spiky stat, your gear might be right at that cusp where a little more haste gives big benefits. As ever try things out in Rawr then Export to EnhSim to verify the results.

The thing to remember is as I tweak the code to account for extra things its getting more and more accurate. It will never reach the accuracy level of a SIM as its dealing entirely in averages. However it aims to be pretty good at getting things right.

Now that I've got a working EnhSim source code site see EnhSim - Home I can work on both models at the same time and find out why sometimes Rawr results are different from EnhSim results. Sometimes that's EnhSim's fault (eg: armour pen & flametongue coefficients) mostly its due to Rawr not having implemented stuff yet.

Having said that Rawr is looking pretty good at present.

Oprahwndfury · 06/22/09, 1:21 PM

Hi

I have been using RAWR since, pre version 2.0. I downloaded the most recent version, 2.2.7 today, and it seems to have turned my itemization upside down. Pcs that use to be bis are no longer there, Valorous gear is scoring a higher value than its conqueror counterpart and elemental gear is scoring better than enhance gear. The 4pc worldbreaker no longer seems to register (from what i can see) and heroism badge gear is rating much higher than conqueror badge loot.

Is this the general concensus for all users (enhance shamans) alike or am I the exception to the group?

To compile my gear in RAWR, i simply imported the gear sheet from my previous version, like always.

Any help or discussion would be greatly appreciated.

Levva · 06/22/09, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by Oprahwndfury

Hi

I have been using RAWR since, pre version 2.0. I downloaded the most recent version, 2.2.7 today, and it seems to have turned my itemization upside down. Pcs that use to be bis are no longer there, Valorous gear is scoring a higher value than its conqueror counterpart and elemental gear is scoring better than enhance gear. The 4pc worldbreaker no longer seems to register (from what i can see) and heroism badge gear is rating much higher than conqueror badge loot.

Is this the general concensus for all users (enhance shamans) alike or am I the exception to the group?

To compile my gear in RAWR, i simply imported the gear sheet from my previous version, like always.

Any help or discussion would be greatly appreciated.

This is not really the forum to ask for assistance. However since its becoming an FAQ - When you install you need to clean out the old folder. If you keep your old ItemCache file its values have all the old values from the old version. So you need to DELETE the old version and install fresh.

The analogy I can put to you is if you went and bought a fresh pint of milk you wouldn't just pour it into a jug leaving the old milk from several days ago in there. If you did then the fresh stuff would be rather unpleasant very quickly. What you would do is clean out the jug first so you only have fresh milk.

The same is true of installing computer programs and especially true of installing wow addons as well as windows programs like Rawr. ALWAYS delete the old version before installing new.

The problem you are describing is almost certainly due to your itemcache being out of date. If you completely delete your Rawr program directory and install fresh this should help.

Adain · 06/23/09, 9:23 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

There is NEVER any emphasis on any stat. Rawr doesn't use EP values AT ALL. It uses a series of formulae. Now that I've implemented a model for GCDs it will probably be the case that upping your haste gives you a bit more GCDs and thus perhaps squeeze in extra abilities during the fight duration you specify. This is especially true if you are at one of the haste brackets where the graph swings upwards rapidly.

Haste is known to be a spiky stat, your gear might be right at that cusp where a little more haste gives big benefits. As ever try things out in Rawr then Export to EnhSim to verify the results.

The thing to remember is as I tweak the code to account for extra things its getting more and more accurate. It will never reach the accuracy level of a SIM as its dealing entirely in averages. However it aims to be pretty good at getting things right.

Now that I've got a working EnhSim source code site see EnhSim - Home I can work on both models at the same time and find out why sometimes Rawr results are different from EnhSim results. Sometimes that's EnhSim's fault (eg: armour pen & flametongue coefficients) mostly its due to Rawr not having implemented stuff yet.

Having said that Rawr is looking pretty good at present.

Compared to earlier versions (2.2.5 and 2.2.6, using the same equipment), there is definitely a major bias towards haste in 2.2.7 to the point where totem of dueling is best in slot by far. Running the optimizer in earlier versions suggests similar gemming, while 2.2.7 actually suggests replacing a load of JC gems for haste.

Point is, every other version of Rawr there's little and quirks like that, sometimes quite minor, in this case it's a pretty major bias towards haste.

So does that mean that in previous versions, the importance of haste has been completely off? that now, using rawr 2.2.7, totem of dueling suddenly is best in slot by far for example? Have previous models of rawr been that far off the mark?

Rouncer · 06/23/09, 9:34 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

As ever try things out in Rawr then Export to EnhSim to verify the results. The thing to remember is as I tweak the code to account for extra things its getting more and more accurate. It will never reach the accuracy level of a SIM as its dealing entirely in averages. However it aims to be pretty good at getting things right.

Levva has done an amazing job with Rawr but even he states that it is not complete yet and that you still need to Sim everything out to validate the results. When the developer states that and you take the time to quote that, why are you questioning that?

edit - telling him that Rawr seems to still have a heavy bias towards haste that is not borne out by Sim testing is constructive and potentially helpful but that wasn't what you posted, was it?

Levva · 06/23/09, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Adain

So does that mean that in previous versions, the importance of haste has been completely off? that now, using rawr 2.2.7, totem of dueling suddenly is best in slot by far for example? Have previous models of rawr been that far off the mark?

No it means there is a bug in v2.2.7 to do with GCD interference model that grossly over emphasises haste. This bug was fixed around 10 mins after v2.2.7 was live aka I was still working on the GCD interference model when the project co-ordinator build the new live version 10 minutes before I was ready for it. This meant I didn't quite finish and commit my changes in time for the new version.

Today I've posted a fix available for download from MMO-Champion please see Rawr.Enhance - Enhancement Shaman DPS calculator this patches the Rawr.Enhance model to v2.2.7.19935

BigZ · 07/07/09, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

No it means there is a bug in v2.2.7 to do with GCD interference model that grossly over emphasises haste. This bug was fixed around 10 mins after v2.2.7 was live aka I was still working on the GCD interference model when the project co-ordinator build the new live version 10 minutes before I was ready for it. This meant I didn't quite finish and commit my changes in time for the new version.

Today I've posted a fix available for download from MMO-Champion please see Rawr.Enhance - Enhancement Shaman DPS calculator this patches the Rawr.Enhance model to v2.2.7.19935

I am running 2.2.9 and it still appears to love haste. Wanted to confirm that the 2.2.7 fix was integrated into 2.2.9 or if there is something additional we should download.

Muufasa · 07/08/09, 3:58 PM

Anyone have any guess as to why I'm getting Grim Toll so high on my list of optimal trinkets (above wrathstone and pyrite infuser). Wouldn't the attack power be much better than the armor pen proc?

Farosarg · 07/08/09, 5:25 PM

Originally Posted by Muufasa

Anyone have any guess as to why I'm getting Grim Toll so high on my list of optimal trinkets (above wrathstone and pyrite infuser). Wouldn't the attack power be much better than the armor pen proc?

Its hard to tell if you don't post your config, but an educated guess would be that you have too high armor value on your enemy sheet.

Levva · 07/09/09, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by BigZ

I am running 2.2.9 and it still appears to love haste. Wanted to confirm that the 2.2.7 fix was integrated into 2.2.9 or if there is something additional we should download.

All new versions are simply built from the current code, as soon as I commit a fix its in there and any future builds will have that info. Haste is one of those odd stats, a lot more testing is needed to work out if the sim & Rawr are getting it right but there does seem to be sweetspots (and sourspots) we haven't been able to confirm if this is simply the result of the precise nature of sims or whether its a real effect in game.

The issue for instance is if your haste takes your swings & GCD to a point where you can fit an extra spell or two in the combat length suddenly the value of that tiny extra amount of haste is huge. eg: at 1.22sec GCD you can get 29 Stormstrikes in but by adding a tiny amount of haste taking your to 1.219sec GCD the sim works out you can get 30 Stormstrikes in the time, the value of adding that tiny extra haste is seemingly a huge dps boost. However once you are at 30 Stormstrikes it might take until 1.203sec GCD before you can get to 31 Stormstrikes so then it settles down and behaves as a regular stat.

This is what I mean by it perhaps being a artifact of how the sims work rather than something real as in practice no human is going to be able to make use of 0.001 seconds extra GCD.

Originally Posted by Muufasa

Anyone have any guess as to why I'm getting Grim Toll so high on my list of optimal trinkets (above wrathstone and pyrite infuser). Wouldn't the attack power be much better than the armor pen proc?

Most likely you haven't ticked the buffs to make you hit capped. However without your XML config file its tricky to tell.

Muufasa · 07/09/09, 8:47 PM

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Levva · 07/12/09, 8:43 AM

Sorry an XML file cut n paste from Internet Explorer is useless as it adds in extra crap to make it nicer to read. This extra crap makes it fail to load as it has corrupted the XML. Please use a basic text editor to cut n paste the XML (eg: notepad).

Stormhowl · 07/16/09, 7:14 AM

Levva, I have a couple of questions, i apologize, i've been thinking of the best way of asking them without getting banned. :P

First of all, i'm using the updated 2.2.9

second of all, I don't know if this is something out of the ordinary or that you control, but how come magma totem isn't default select on Rawr? To be honest, i didn't notice it myself till after about 2 weeks of using it.

When i do select magma totem, it tends to gem everything for haste, I even get some really odd gear selections. If there is a way i could help show this, i'd be more then glad to work with you.

It is picking gear like the gladiators tunic over some items and often gems them for hit/haste ignoring obvious selections.

I understand that enhancement gear is very sensitive to what we have at the moments of our gear selection but its really odd.

Maybe I'm just under-estimating haste

Levva · 07/16/09, 9:58 AM

Default of Magma totem - hmmm yes suppose this should really be the default these days.

As you have noted the algorithm is far more sensitive to haste with magma totem and to be honest no-one has yet done any testing to see if this is a real effect or not. The problem is that it is using computer precision and so a small amount of haste that moves your from getting 13.99999 totems down in 6 mins combat to 14.000001 totems down in 6 mins combat makes a big difference in dps. Alternatively that slight extra haste could manage to squeeze in an extra SS, ES or LL in the combat and so it looks a big upgrade to the computer.

However to a human the difference between a 1.376 GCD and a 1.374 GCD is not going to make a difference unless you are superhumanly accurate. This tends to be why in modelling haste graphs its a spiky stat. How you determine what is actually valid or not is tricky. As you are always going to get these "boundary" conditions where a tiny extra haste increase allows for an extra ability and thus a jump in dps for that small change.

Vespasian · 07/28/09, 1:43 AM

We were discussing in the BiS thread the deficiencies of Rawr as an all encompassing tool. I suggested that the inability to prioritise an ability priority order makes the results unreliable as our gear, talents and glyphs interact with our abilities in a complex, non-linear fashion. I think the tool would be more valuable if people set the priority order.

I have read through the entirety of this thread but was unable to come to an understanding on the central difference between Rawr and Enhsim in the way that they calculate DPS. I was wondering if you might be able to shed some light on how this. Does it constantly simulate the in-game environment and provide a single DPS figure? If so, why are the results between Enhsim and Rawr so different? A BiS setup reports 7800 DPS on Rawr and 7450 DPS on Enhsim, while upgrading Vulmir to Caress of Insanity reports an increase of 40 DPS on Rawr and 110 DPS on Enhsim.

On a completely unrelated note, is it possible that the next version of Shock and Awe can include a longer priority list and the ability to list MW3_CL, MW4_LB etc?