Used to be true but now with the amount of spell damage we throw out spell hit cap is more important then expertise cap. Just make a perfectly capped set on Rawr and then use negative EP values. I just did that with my current gear and Hit ended up with a value of 4.10 and Expertise at 3.22 so even with the flaws in the EP system it's seems pretty clear that hit is worth more then expertise before the caps.

To go one step further I pulled 20 expertise and 20 hit from the set and ran it which showed 8079.06 dps.
Then I ran it with a 20 expertise gem in place (no socket bonus) showing 8120.47 dps
Then I removed the 20 expertise gem and placed a 20 hit gem in another piece (to avoid a socket bonus) and that showed 8134.39 dps

Enh sim has born that out too (re spell hit > expertise). BiS set _isn't_ expertise capped at all, because capping expertise ends up being a DPS loss.

Getting close to expertise cap without going too far over has generally been a better DPS gain, because a 0.5% chance to have a melee attack dodged is worth it to avoid going over cap.

The big thing to keep in mind is that expertise is not a truncated stat. So if the choice is between being 4 rating under the cap or 6 over the cap then stay under the cap because 4 under the cap is really only a 0.122% chance to be dodged. So even though you will only have 25 expertise according to the paper doll (which should be a 0.25% chance to be dodged) that doesn't really matter as all of the expertise rating over that 25 mark will still be having an effect on the target's dodge rate.

However if the choice was between 8 under or 2 over the cap then I would choose 2 over since there would be enough expertise rating working for me to be worth sacrificing those 2 rating points.

This is why I don't understand the BiS setup at present its miles under the cap and every time I run a test the extra expertise wins. I've not bothered running their config.txt file though EnhSim lately though to try to determine why, their current config is a v1.7.0 config file so its hideously out of date.

Bear in mind too that the sim is simulating being 100% behind the boss at all times. We all know this isn't the case for some fights and so any extra expertise can mitigate dodged attacks too.

I've given up on the BiS setup until it gets updated again which probably won't be until ICC anyway. It was made before a lot of things were fixed with the sim and besides it pretty much shows that you should just get as much 258 gear as possible since the 258 stuff beats everything else by leaps and bounds.

Haste vs AP is about the only controversial aspect left and it's not something the sim can handle anyway since adds have to come into play on some level and it can't simulate those at present. Besides the differences between the two stacking styles are so minor that they barely qualify as static anyway.

A certain shaman I know stated it best regarding haste vs AP; just use Stark Ametrines as much as possible and you really can't go wrong.

Dont know if it has been mentioned or what but will the introduction of 3.3 and Fire Nova dosent change the AP vs Haste into APs favor because of AP = 1/3 SP along with that the PTR of IC seems more and more multitarget bosses than single target Tank'n Spank ?

Indeed MW4_LB will drop out of use with 4pc T10. We may need to code a new conditional for SR too, as we currently have only use SR if mana < X, we may now wish to have use SR if off CD regardless of mana.

Until that is implemented, I have been toying around with just increasing the threshold. If you just set it to max mana would it use the ability on every available cooldown? I know right now, with my current gear, I have it set to go off at around 10k mana in the sim with a low priority and it yields the most dps. As such, I can imagine setting it to a higher priority again and bumping the mana to max, but it's something we'll have to play around with.

I suspect the best implementation would be that the sim config option becomes "first_SR_mana_trigger" and SR is used the first time when mana goes below that level thereafter its used every cooldown.

I would suggest we have two triggers though...

SR - use SR whenever available even if max mana
SR_MANA - use SR whenever mana < config value

ie: rename current implementation to be SR_MANA and add new SR which is use immediately. This would allow testing of either scenario and testing of where in the sequence to put SR.

This would also mean that testing with mana on becomes almost compulsory especially for this type of use of SR AND using Fire Nova in there too, we'll need to know if the priority setup we choose runs out of mana.

If memory serves, the sim uses BL at the start of the fight, so there should also be an option to use Shamanistic Rage at the start of the fight even if you use SR_MANA trigger. That way it it would simulate our ingame behavior of delaying SR to go with BL because we know it will come fairly soon. If its worth delaying at all.

Ok, long time reader, 1st post here.
Im very confused. Ive been playing on 2.3.0 version of rawr and my dps seems to drop dramatically with either 2/2 imp.fire nova and the glyph of fire nova. Totts on nagrand is my shaman and all I am doing is dropping 2 points from reverbaration and putting them into imp.fire nova. 1/2 increases my dps from 7376 to 7449. The second point however, drops it to 5666....
The fire nova glyph is a reduction in dps with any talent point combo. Any ideas, help, suggestions?
I have looked around but havnt seen a case of this before

Levva,

I've been playing around with both Rawr and Enhsim. Fine work on both and glad to see someone actively trying to improve the class/playstyle.

One quick question, do either of the current versions support 2H setups? Rawr doesn't currently allow you to equip them off the built in item sets and importing from the Armory doesn't appear to work correctly as it still shows off-hand stats and swing times.

I'm not looking for a 2H viability vs DW argument. Just trying to research where the threshold is between the two in a non raid buffed situation.

I will NEVER corrupt the purity of Rawr or EnhSim to even contemplate the rubbish that is 2h dps, to be honest in my mind you deserve an infraction for such a question, that adds nothing to the debate. I really don't care that you didn't want a viability answer.

2h IS NOT VIABLE.

This seriously is NOT the forums to be trying to debate this. I leave it to the moderators however to decide on a course of action.

A simple, "No it is not incorporated." would have sufficed.

As I stated, it wasn't my intention to bring that debate here, and this certainly would not be the thread for it.

Been playing around with Enhsim and Rawr. Decided i should check my glyphs because of the changes. When i looked at the glyphs it is showing Glyph of Fire Nova as being worth about 400 dps, in my current gear and what i believe to be BiS atm (changes daily).

Simming it in Enhsim it doesnt support this indication. I just wanted to know its actually accurate or if something somewhere in the code is causing an error. I'll say i am using it now as it is handy for any adds in fights which are fairly common and it does serve as a GREAT, though expensive, time filling attack.

Another possible glyph error is the glyph of fire elemental is worth 0 DPS?

Of course im not sure on either of these, just the values seem a bit strange. Either really high, or really low? Anyone else seeing this as well?

~Ciege

PS: Not knocking what you have done, i love rawr and enhsim, just want to make sure their working properly for everyone.

1. We have a lot of attacks that are higher dps than fire nova. Glyph of fire nova doesn't affect dps because we don't have enough global cooldowns to take advantage of it.

2. Glyph of fire elemental isn't implemented in the sim yet, which is why it doesn't affect dps (in the sim).

1: True, but in placement between Fire Nova and Lava Lash, the damage output on them is very simalar (when including Off Hand Imbue procs). Just got done raiding as was looking at the WoL. Fire Nova Crit is less than Lava Lash Crit + Flametongue Weapon Crit, BUT they both have to crit or Fire Nova does more damage in a Crit. Also it is amazing as a filler, and i mean hitting down time alot is not something to make me happy. In 2 Gobals, its back up which lets me keep doing more and more to push better numbers.

2: Did not know this, thanks.

It's in Rawr but shows as 0 dps gain. Without the sim having it in it there is no way to test it outside of using it in game. Which i do like it. Only the future will tell, just gonna be patient.

~Ciege

Fire Nova also can't proc Static Shock or give changes of Maelstrom Weapon or proc Berserking or proc most trinkets, etc. Using that glyph is a substantial dps loss on single target encounters. It is a dps gain on multi-target encounters though so it really depends on the encounter as to whether the glyph is worth using.

I've added Deathbringer's Will to Rawr.Enhance however please note that in v2.3.2 its not modelled correctly a new version should be out soon that fixes this issue.

I'm having some doubts here:

Actually I'm wearing 4/5 T9 + Crafted ToC Chest and got around 95 Frost Emblems so I'm in the point of doing some calculations to check what items to get first, and these are my results:

Actual Gear -> 5051.53 DPS
T10 Chest -> 5098.73 DPS
T10 Head -> 5125.26 DPS
T10 Pants -> 5087.53 DPS
Trinket+Totem -> 5269.70 DPS

For the calculations I'm letting Rawr use the T9 245 Chest because I algo have the tokens + emblems, but here's my doubt; I got the totem + trinket result letting Rawr use Lava Lash in the priority list and also the talent was checked, but when I unchek LL in the priority list and also unchek the talent the calculations go down to 4998 DPS, which doesn't make sense to me as having more free GCDs for FN or anything else should make higher dps, at least for me.

You're wondering why not using one of your abilities lowers your dps? While Lava Lash isn't a high priority skill, completely dropping it from your rotation results in a dps loss, because of times when you have everything on cooldown, and a dead zone in which you could use it. Easy as that. Lava Lash also proccing MW and all other possible procs as well makes it rather silly to drop.

Ok, I get the point now, instead of dropping it I should lower its priority, that's what you mean, right?

---

Redoing the testings setting LL under FS gives me a little improvement over the previous configuration, now it gives me 5273.13 DPS instead the previous 5269.70 DPS, not much of an improvement anyway.

By the way, what's the needed amount of haste rating to reach the GCD cap? I mean, the required rating to drop the GCD to 1 second.