Why? Yes, our dps is good. It's about the same give or take 200-300 dps as an Elemental Shaman with BiS gear (atleast from experience in my guild). Nerfing 5% haste: is it a big hit later into Wrath now, Malan? I'm hoping with the changes to Frostbrand Weapon this 5% haste nerf can be made up through spell damage... Which of course is bad; it could lead to nerfing our spells further.
Our intent is still WF/FT in PvE. You can opt to use FB in PvP, especially with these changes. Shamans benefit a lot from being fully raid buffed since both melee and spellpower buffs and debuffs can help them. In PvP where you likely won't have so many buffs, you might not miss the damage as much and could use FB for its extra benefits.
The Flurry nerf was to lower Enhancement PvE damage, which was once again too high.
. Nerfing 5% haste: is it a big hit later into Wrath now, Malan?
Well I tried to simulate it just now by just removing 1 point from Flurry and not reinvesting it anywhere and the sim predicts that at about a 100 dps loss. Not quite so bad as when they first tried to reduce it as I think at that point it was in the 200-300 dps loss.
That's fully raid buffed though. It'll have a bigger impact on PvP shaman and small groups. It's also a slightly bigger decrease in dps when using a slow OH.
Looks like they're finally going to try and make ArP a useful stat
GC just posted "It is in this build I believe. If not, then it is: Armor Penetration Rating: All classes now receive 25% more benefit from Armor Penetration Rating."
So there is the Flurry nerf I anticipated some pages ago. As I said, it's perfect to counter-balance the major UR buff. While it does hit our melee damage a bit more then our spell damage, it is probably the most balanced talent to nerf us on both ends.
Frozen power on the other side gets stranger patch by patch. If this is their idea of a pvp buff, then I just don't get it. We need a real escape mechanism, we need Wind shock to be taken of the global shock cooldown and we need enhancements to our totem system. It looks like Blizzard, although they realized the major problem that is our shared shock cooldown, is not willing to directly fix it, by just removing it. Instead they added two bandaids in form of Booming echoes and Frozen power.
If you look at things from the perspective of how most shaman hit the expertise cap, through gems, the 9 expertise from talents is equal to 72 expertise rating or 4.5 16 expertise gems. 4.5 haste gems equate to 2.2% haste. So our net loss so far from talents is 2.8% haste, assuming a 100% flurry uptime.
I like the Frozen Power change in terms of PvP, obviously some math needs to be done as far as PvE applications go but since I just got on spring break that can wait a couple of hours. I have to agree with the above poster however in that we still need survivability. Frozen Power, I would say, pretty effectively settles the issue of us being kited or otherwise being unable to stay on our target in PvP. There still remains the larger issue of survivability, the only "improvements" to which have been the Toughness change (5 points no one can spare anyway) and the new Stoneclaw Glyph which I'm sure is going to be nerfed at some point, for ehnc its sorely needed but for resto and possibly elem as well its going to be too good.
If you look at things from the perspective of how most shaman hit the expertise cap, through gems, the 9 expertise from talents is equal to 72 expertise rating or 4.5 16 expertise gems. 4.5 haste gems equate to 2.2% haste. So our net loss so far from talents is 2.8% haste, assuming a 100% flurry uptime.
You can't really make that comparison though, because we are going from a less valuable stat to a more valuable stat. Using the relative gem values works for a few things, but this isn't one of them. It may change the EP values of haste a bit since we will start out a bit farther from the chasm, but the EP value of expertise will remain high, and almost all shaman will be gemming AP once the hit and expertise caps are reached making this worth ~4.5x32ap rather than 4.5x16 haste.
I wasn't trying to say that I'd gem for 4.5 haste gems instead of expertise, I was just trying to make the comparison that in terms of working around talents/gem we lost x% of effective haste. I just meant to say that if we were looking at it from the perspective of replacing the expertise gems you had for haste it would be a net stat loss in that regard. We certainly have more flexibility to choose better stats as you pointed out (although it won't do much for me but make me have to get a new trinket).
I didn't say it was a net DPS loss, although Malan pointed out that it indeed is. Sorry if my previous post wasn't that clear.
Last edited by Brynmor : 03/06/09 at 7:51 PM.
Reason: Typos.
In his Theorycrafting Think Tank article for Enhancement, Malan writes:
During simulation though you will notice that as you approach 1.5 weapon speed when using windfury that the value of haste will decrease sharply. This will continue to occur until you have enough passive haste to push your weapon speed beyond that slight dip. This occurs when the sim finds that adding haste pushes you into speeds where windfury procs are reduced because of swing times.
I am at this point now, with Enhsim giving me a -1.52 EP value for Haste as currently geared. I have 103 Haste rating without actively trying to stack it at all.
Maybe it's just me trying to find the silver lining, but won't the 5% reduction to Flurry give us a bit more room to accept Haste on our gear before we hit the "sour spot"? It's going to be on our gear anyways, and I actually anticipate wearing more offset pieces with ArP and Haste now that I won't have to stack so much Expertise.
Simulating with 4 points in Flurry to mimic the change, I see a 98.56 DPS loss while my EP value for Haste climbs to 1.72.
Simulating with 4 points in Flurry, and an additional 144 AP and 43 Spell Power (4.5 sockets worth), I am seeing a 25.28 DPS loss.
Simulating with 4 points in flurry, an additional 144 AP/43 SP, and a 30% increase to paper doll Haste, I am seeing a 1.81 DPS increase. It's a wash.
Malan, in your test did you include regemming 4.5 sockets for AP or whatever your highest EP stat was? I'm assuming you didn't since you didn't specifically say you did, just wondering as above if the sum of the changes so far are a net loss, gain, or wash.
9 Expertise = 72 Expertise Rating @ 2.5 per point = 180 EP
1 Haste point = ~ 0.03% haste, 5% Haste (lost from flurry) then = ~ 164 Haste points @ 1.57 per point = 256 EP
So on the basis of EP points purely it is a net DPS loss. These are my EP weights of course, but if you want to do your own math just subsitute your own weights in. I don't think it will come up too differently though.
Maybe it's just me trying to find the silver lining, but won't the 5% reduction to Flurry give us a bit more room to accept Haste on our gear before we hit the "sour spot"? It's going to be on our gear anyways, and I actually anticipate wearing more offset pieces with ArP and Haste now that I won't have to stack so much Expertise.
The other way to look at it, of course, is that now this means you'll have to wait until t9 to not have to worry about the sour spot while gearing. =P
I too am interested in the ArP changes - Nightcrowler (druid theorycrafter) noted that it was the second best stat after agility for kitties (prior to this 25% buff in efficacy I believe). It could make all those ugly pieces that didn't have expertise or hit on them look a lot better for enh shamans if the ArP buff came out to anything relevant. I'll be waiting until the next push goes live to do any math myself.
The real question is how attractive ArP and haste will be for hunters - assuming Blizzard itemizes t8enh to be expertise and hit (since offset pieces with expertise make less sense and the hit cap for hunters is pretty low, making excess hit on gear unattractive for them) the wrists belt and boots could be loaded down with stats that are much more relevant to enhancement shamans than they are to hunters... For once?
Sorry, going back to my corner. =x edit: clarification and more clarification
Here is some quick calculations showing what kind of damage you can do with FT on the offhand, or FB w/Frozen Power on the offhand. The numbers are base damage, without raid buffs or investing talent points in Concussion and Improved Shields. Spell coefficients are taken from wowwiki and are 'supposedly' correct as of 3.0.3. Flametongue coefficient is based off of a 2.5 speed offhand weapon (Angry Dread) using the values that Rounced and Hothgor discussed on the WoW Damage Dealing forum.
Damage Per Cast With Flametongue
Spell
Coef
AVG
1500
2000
2500
Lightning Bolt
0.7143
765
1836
2194
2551
Earth Shock
0.3858
872
1451
1644
1837
Lightning Shield
1.0000
380
880
1047
1213
Flametongue
0.0730
181
291
327
364
Damage Per Cast With Frozen Power/FB
Spell
Coef
AVG
1227
1727
2227
Lightning Bolt
0.7143
765
1806
2198
2591
Earth Shock
0.3858
872
1480
1692
1904
Lightning Shield
1.0000
380
789
956
1122
Frostbrand
0.1000
486
609
659
709
Assuming a somewhat standard spell casting priority in combat (Read MW_LB, else SS, else ES, else LL) and a generous assumption of 5 MW charges per 8 seconds, every minute you should have 7.5 casts of SS, LB, ES, LL and one refresh of LS, on average of course. Offhand weapon attacks, hasted with WF totem and 100% uptime on 25% flurry, stand at 51 per minute. Frostbrand, with an 8 PPM base, would proc 17 times per minute. Since every players weapons/stats are different, I'm only going to extend your expected spell damage out based on the spell power values mentioned above.
Total Damage With Flametongue
Spell
Coef
AVG
1500
2000
2500
Lightning Bolt
13773
16452
19131
Earth Shock
10880
12327
13774
Lightning Shield
7920
9420
10920
Flametongue
14816
16677
18539
Total Damage
47389
54876
62363
Total Damage with Frozen Power/FB
Spell
Coef
AVG
1227
1727
2227
Lightning Bolt
13542
16488
19435
Earth Shock
11099
12691
14282
Lightning Shield
5918
7168
8418
Frostbrand
10348
11198
12048
Total Damage
40907
47545
54183
Obviously this is a series of very crude calculations, but without a simulator to reflect these changes, it is a start. Frostbrand on the offhand, even with the Frozen Power Talent, will result in ~15% loss in overall spell damage for a fight, in addition to 12% less Lava Lash damage. So Ghost Crawler is absolutely right: Shamans will still want to use WF/FT.
I wasn't trying to say that I'd gem for 4.5 haste gems instead of expertise, I was just trying to make the comparison that in terms of working around talents/gem we lost x% of effective haste. I just meant to say that if we were looking at it from the perspective of replacing the expertise gems you had for haste it would be a net stat loss in that regard. We certainly have more flexibility to choose better stats as you pointed out (although it won't do much for me but make me have to get a new trinket).
I didn't say it was a net DPS loss, although Malan pointed out that it indeed is. Sorry if my previous post wasn't that clear.
Whether the patch will be a buff or nerf to your PvE DPS depends on your current spec. If you needed to spec UR 5/5, you will probably gain some DPS or stay even, if you didn't, you will lose some. Well, if you leave the whole FT/FT thing out.
I made some sims to see what would happen with my dps. I don't want to clutter the thread with the sim settings, but the results were:
- 3.08 with 5/5 UR: 6035.87 DPS
- 3.1 with the Flurry nerf, after regeming with AP and moving 2 points each into Improved Shields and Ancestral Knowledge: 6049.10 DPS
- 3.1 same changes, but without the Flurry nerf: 6125 DPS
With the 141 Expertise rating, in addition to UR's 9 expertise that was the cap last patch. However, I logged in and was at 30 Expertise(way over the cap) and our rogues were noticing they had an increase in %. Something with expertise changed, with tier gear you only need 32 expertise(2 gems) and UR to cap now.
[e] Apparently expertise is gaining the +25% bonus given to armor pen, thus explaining why everyone has more.
With the 141 Expertise rating, in addition to UR's 9 expertise that was the cap last patch. However, I logged in and was at 30 Expertise(way over the cap) and our rogues were noticing they had an increase in %. Something with expertise changed, with tier gear you only need 32 expertise(2 gems) and UR to cap now.
I am guessing this is a bug, but I am seeing something similar.
Logged off with 27 expertise.
Logged on with 32 expertise:
9 from UR (tooltip still indicates 9 expertise for 3/3)
72 rating from gems
82 rating from gear
I switched to resto spec with 0/3 UR and have 23/23 expertise, so we are getting 5 expertise from nowhere.
With the 141 Expertise rating, in addition to UR's 9 expertise that was the cap last patch. However, I logged in and was at 30 Expertise(way over the cap) and our rogues were noticing they had an increase in %. Something with expertise changed, with tier gear you only need 32 expertise(2 gems) and UR to cap now.
Yes, you are right. I already regemed on the PTR and had 26 expertise, but no I have 30 with 138 rating and 9 through UR. ArP also changed, I got 3% now with 37 rating.
MQ+FT was not fixed with this new PTR patch.
Edit: That looks also to be new: "Enhancement Shaman PvP Set Bonus: The cooldown reduction of Stormstrike has been increased to 2 seconds, up from 1 second."
Last edited by SentinelBorg : 03/06/09 at 10:47 PM.
That brings Frostbrand in line with with FT for the offhand easily. A 10% increase in damage for virtually every ability we use is fantastic!!! The Frostbrand PPM is easily high enough on to have near 100% uptime on bosses.
Bosses are immune to the Frostbrand debuff so there will be no bonus damage on them. Just tested it on Onyxia. It's a PvP/Farming talent and a much nicer one now too.
As for the Flurry thing, trading 9 expertise for 5% Flurry seems pretty reasonable.
Wonder if they are even considering putting Lava Burst back on Maelstrom Weapon. I would also still like to see some love for the Imp Windfury Totem talent (needs a personal component for when a Frost DK is bringing the buff) and would love to see Lava Lash changed to work like a shiv (automatically applies the debuff) when used with Frostbrand on the offhand but we'll see what happens since I don't think they are done messing with things just yet.
Malan, in your test did you include regemming 4.5 sockets for AP or whatever your highest EP stat was? I'm assuming you didn't since you didn't specifically say you did, just wondering as above if the sum of the changes so far are a net loss, gain, or wash.
No, I just ran the sim as though 5% haste had magically vanished overnight. I made no attempt to correct it through stats.
And now I'm totally confused as to why they bothered to drop flurry by 5% but give us 30% more haste from gear.
Actually that may be exactly why they lowered it, keeping us a bit more even in current gear while letting haste scale better. That haste change is pretty big though, if the accepted average EP for haste is 1.7 then the post 3.1 haste will be ~2.21 EP and my Hyperspeed Accelerators become +13% haste for 10 every 60, since we don't really benefit that much from a lower GCD.
But didn't they already try this and decide it was too OP for melee haste? 2.1 and 2.2 or somewhere around there.
For me and my current gear (6.74% haste) my overall haste change (assuming post 3.1 I gem for haste) would be:
(1.25 * 1.1162) / (1.3 * 1.0674) = 1.005 so basically no change in haste.
I probably do have more haste than most of you, but even with lower haste values your overall change should be negligible and we might actually get something more interesting to gem for than raw AP.
Bosses are immune to the Frostbrand debuff so there will be no bonus damage on them. Just tested it on Onyxia. It's a PvP/Farming talent and a much nicer one now too.
I just applied it to each of the three Council guys in Ulduar, so maybe that is Ony specific?
I just applied it to each of the three Council guys in Ulduar, so maybe that is Ony specific?
Then they are most likely snareable.
Rag was rootable but most bosses are not. If the boss is immune to being snared then the Frostbrand debuff won't apply (and most bosses are immune to being snared).
Anachronos (Sp? - dragon outside CoT) can be snared and the debuff applied to him just fine. The question was what happens with a boss who can't be snared. Ony can't be snared, so no debuff appeared.
03/06/09, 5:06 PM
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