[Enhancement] 3.1 changes - new rules in place - Page 16

rava · 03/07/09, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Yah seems like that limitation alone is going to push it drastically away from any pve use.

[e] ugh just got word that Expertise might have it's rating conversion changed, if you're on the PTR you may want to look into it.

I think that they may have mixed something up with haste and expertise. 190 haste on live(5.79% haste) and test(7.53% haste) yet there is no difference in listed weapon speed, both are sitting at 1.70. Yet looking at expertise I gained ~1.75% dodge parry reduction for the same expertise value(+26). That's around a 27% increase of the listed value which could have been fudged columns on the % increases.

Protico · 03/07/09, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Yah seems like that limitation alone is going to push it drastically away from any pve use.

[e] ugh just got word that Expertise might have it's rating conversion changed, if you're on the PTR you may want to look into it.

Currently: 8:1, 16:2, 24:3, 32:4, 40:6, 48:7, 56:8, 64:9, 72:10, 80:12, 88:13, 96:14, 104:15.

panny · 03/07/09, 12:14 AM

At the levels of spellpower that you get in PvP, Frostbrand offhand is about equal to Flametongue, assuming the debuff is up all the time. The added utility of the snare means it's probably worth the small loss in damage, assuming the proc damage is the same. Nice little buff I guess.

falonub · 03/07/09, 2:12 AM

Anyone have logs/numbers of their PTR tonight that tried the frostbrand talent in a raid setting? I tried it tonight but I don't want to throw out stuff without logs or it's irrelevant. It was nice seeing one FB crit for 2900 however.

panny · 03/07/09, 4:17 AM

I suspect I'm going to be cussed out by any Blizzard devs reading this, but has anyone tried Frostbrand mainhand on a Wrath Strike and a Flametongue on a slow offhand with the appropriate glyphs in a raid?

Quirk · 03/07/09, 9:04 AM

My target dummy DPS with Improved Scorch + Earth and Moon (Moonkin Aura, Mark of the Wild, Blessing of Might) was shockingly close between WF/FT Slow/Slow and FB/FT Slow/Slow (Calamity's Grasp/The Stray)

Tonight I'll parse and present, unless someone beats me to it.

Rouncer · 03/07/09, 9:34 AM

Originally Posted by panny

I suspect I'm going to be cussed out by any Blizzard devs reading this, but has anyone tried Frostbrand mainhand on a Wrath Strike and a Flametongue on a slow offhand with the appropriate glyphs in a raid?

Best thing would be for people to start testing Frostbrand on the PTR so we can get a real PPM number to incorporate into the Sim.

I really don't think there will be any issues with Frostbrand outperforming Windfury on the mainhand especially since most bosses will be immune to the Frostbrand debuff but it will be much easier to establish one way or the other with an updated Sim.

Best way is just one fast weapon (1.3), pure autoattack, no haste at all (naked and talentless is best).

Track total time, number of hits and procs. Minimum of 100 minutes, longer is even better.

SentinelBorg · 03/07/09, 12:17 PM

I'm running the test right now. With no talents, no haste and Webbed Death, so this can double as another Berserking test. I just did my 1000th melee hit and had exactly 200 FB procs till then. I will edit this post with the final results later.

Edit: I use a lvl 70 dummy, so no dodges or misses. Only auto-attack. 2840 Hits, 600 procs now.

Edit: Here are the results: Wow Web Stats

123 min Runtime, 5251 white-hits, 1099 FB procs, 122 Berserking procs

-> FB: 8.93 ppm, Berserk: 1 ppm

Rouncer · 03/07/09, 12:48 PM

Converting that into PPM that sets it at 8.57 so far with 23.333 minutes of testing.

Just to make sure, you're using the level 60 dummy right or using enough +hit and expertise to remove dodge/miss from the table and attacking from behind to remove parry.

Protico · 03/07/09, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Converting that into PPM that sets it at 8.57 so far with 23.333 minutes of testing.

A little over an hour in and mine is holding right aroud 8.56 (1025 FB / 5525 white @ 1.3 speed, 70min).

Rouncer · 03/07/09, 2:04 PM

That's a really interesting value.

Maybe blizzard codes by average number of seconds between procs instead of by procs per minute. Because 7 seconds between procs works out to exactly 8.57ppm.

Dragon-CR · 03/07/09, 2:28 PM

For the amount of time tested so far PPM could still easily be anywhere in the 8-9ppm range though, but with Sentinel's 2hr results it's looking closer to 9 than 8.

Protico · 03/07/09, 2:59 PM

1.3 speed weapon, naked, untalented, level 60 dummy.

Going by the WWS statistics:
218min, 10006 white, 1880 FB
8.67 FB ppm.

[e] per SB's advice.

SentinelBorg · 03/07/09, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Protico

Interestingly recount logged many more attacks than combatlog, even though I reset both at the beginning of the test. 1.3 speed weapon, naked, untalented, level 60 dummy.

Going by the WWS statistics:
218min, 9187 white, 1779 FB
8.93 FB ppm.

Recount had:
10000 white, 1879 FB
8.67 ppm.

You need to add the crit strikes in WWS.

Edit: Doing General Vezax right now. Looks like we need our new mana-reg options also in PvE.

Rouncer · 03/07/09, 3:26 PM

Adding in the crits brings it to 8.62ppm.

Since I can't see them picking such a strange value it probably is set by average seconds between procs. Which for Frostbrand seems most likely to be 7 seconds between procs or 8.57ppm

Dragon-CR · 03/07/09, 3:33 PM

Do you have a paladin doing JoW and someone doing replenishment? Unless they upped our mana costs and nobody noticed yet I don't see why you'd need the extra mana unless it's something specific to that fight. Right now as long as there's replenishment going around and a paly is judging wisdom I rarely have to rage much less go OOM.

Did JoW maybe get another stealth nerf?

Here I was hoping to do something like this and dump shamanistic focus

Protico · 03/07/09, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by SentinelBorg

You need to add the crit strikes in WWS.

Edit: Doing General Vezax right now. Looks like we need our new mana-reg options also in PvE.

Vezax has mechanics which modify mana regen, so we shouldn't be basing too much of our basic spec on that encounter.

Dragon-CR · 03/07/09, 3:54 PM

Bringing the berserking ppm probability discussion to this ppm discussion, using a 2.5speed weapon it would take around 36,000 attacks to narrow the ppm down to a +/-0.1ppm range with 90% certainty. Using a 1.3 speed weapon it would take about 90,000 attacks.

For berserking we're trying to narrow it down to a +/-10% band, to differentiate between 8, 8.57, or 9ppm, you're trying to narrow it down to a +/-1.2% band

Malan · 03/07/09, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by Dragon-CR

Here I was hoping to do something like this and dump shamanistic focus

I've been raiding without SF and EF for almost 2 months. Don't miss them at all. With the new changes to Imp SS in 3.1 I really see no need to pick them up. Far as I'm concerned they're just pvp talents.

Dragon-CR · 03/07/09, 7:10 PM

So there's sightings of 2.7 speed MH fist weapons on PTR. Granted it's 10man loot, but 10man hard mode so it's iLevel 226, looks to have slightly higher stats than CG to boot. Guess that's one way to encourage WF use.

Rouncer · 03/07/09, 9:36 PM

Gem slot too which is a seriously nice perk.

Annoying thing is the fist that was data-mined along side that fist, 1.5 speed....ugh

panny · 03/07/09, 10:34 PM

Does any class use fast fist offhands anymore? I mean Rogues can, but fast daggers fill the same purpose and for more specs. Really, all fist weapons should be slow.

Holyshyit · 03/07/09, 11:00 PM

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> 3.1.0 Patch Notes - Updated 3/6/09

Ok this is worrying

Unleashed Rage: Reduced to 3 points, down from 5. Each point now also increases your total Expertise by 3/6/9%.

It is one thing for MMO-Champion to get the patch notes wrong but if the official notes say it is a % increase and not as we thought..

Malan · 03/07/09, 11:04 PM

Their stated intent is fill itemization partially with items that people don't ~really~ want. Imperfect items that you might take just because UberItemX hasn't dropped in ages. Just because fast OHs will be slightly worse in 3.1 for shaman doesn't mean that you couldn't take one temporarily.

Originally Posted by Holyshyit

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> 3.1.0 Patch Notes - Updated 3/6/09

Ok this is worrying

It is one thing for MMO-Champion to get the patch notes wrong but if the official notes say it is a % increase and not as we thought..

Seriously man this was cleared up over a week ago and has been posted here, on MMO Champ, World of Raids and the official boards that the % is just a typo. Read and comprehend first, post after.

Rouncer · 03/07/09, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Their stated intent is fill itemization partially with items that people don't ~really~ want. Imperfect items that you might take just because UberItemX hasn't dropped in ages. Just because fast OHs will be slightly worse in 3.1 for shaman doesn't mean that you couldn't take one temporarily.

Except why would you? Once Flametongue is normalized, [Pride] is more dps then that offhand. That is not based on precise sim runs but just from loading up my current stats and then changing weapon speeds and dps to match. Ran sims and then normalized Flametongue damage to the value from the slower weapon. Even so Pride is not horribly itemized so the conclusion should still be valid.