It appears our Wolves will be getting the AE avoidance that hunters currently enjoy. I look forward to this change and my wolves lasting longer than 3 seconds on Grobbulus, et al.
Then again, this is also why they have a PTR. It's definteiy possible that, prior to going live, one or more of those fast OHs will get changed to a slow speed, or alternatively, they'll decide to abandon the slow/slow paradigm for Enhancement and try and find a way to make slow/fast effective and worthwhile without making fast/fast FT/FT the new "go-to" build.
This would undermine the new two piece Tier-8 set bonus:
(2) Set: Increases the damage done by Lava Lash and Stormstrike by 20%.
Having finally fixed the MQ/FT bug and changed FT to deal damage based on weapon speed, I doubt they'll revert all those changes for 3.1. Testing tonight has yielded yet another 1.5 speed weapon which, apart from the speed, is beautifully itemized. It's a drop from General Vezax (10-man) on normal difficulty:
We are now at the point where the only bosses left to test are Yogg-Saron and Algalon. It's becoming more and more likely that our slow offhand is a trash drop, or an undiscovered hard-mode drop. I wish they would just release the full loot tables instead of just making us speculate whether or not unlucky shaman will be using a badge offhand through Ulduar.
Now that you mention it, since only one spec of one class actually wants slow offhands, it makes a great deal of sense to push it to badges. Just add an ilvl 219 slow offhand fist weapon for badges of valor and an ilvl 232 for badges of conquest and bob's your uncle. Why offer dropped loot that only 3.3% of your players will want?
Now that you mention it, since only one spec of one class actually wants slow offhands, it makes a great deal of sense to push it to badges. Just add an ilvl 219 slow offhand fist weapon for badges of valor and an ilvl 232 for badges of conquest and bob's your uncle. Why offer dropped loot that only 3.3% of your players will want?
Spellpower plate and sigils too, please.
But who wants the fast OHs? Rogues and...? Seems to me you run into the same problem, and there are a *bunch* of fast OH that have been discovered at this point.
With this new mace discovered today, I'm now officially worried that the itemization team didn't get the memo about the FT change. It would appear that they are intentionally making a bunch of nice Shaman-equippable weapons with fast speeds because that is currently in vogue. As a community we should re-double our efforts on the PTR and damage-dealing forums to keep this issue in front of the devs. Apart from Rogues and their daggers, I've yet to see any class get excited about fast weapons, so why are there so many?
Personally I'm not satisfied with waiting on a trash drop when there are numerous weapons that would be perfect except for the speed and WILL be sharded early and often.
Easiest solution is just to change Lava Lash to do 3 times your offhand damage per second in fire damage. That would make it completely weapon speed neutral and since the new Flametongue is already weapon speed neutral the only thing left that would be affected by having a slow weapon would be Stormstrike. The offhand portion of Stormstrike is basically a normal melee strike affected by armor so the loss wouldn't be that dramatic and actually would be perfectly offset by the slight increase we would see in Static Shock frequency.
Running the Sim and changing my offhand speed from 2.5 to 1.5 I end up losing 42 dps from Stormstrike for using the faster weapon. However I gain an additional 43 dps from the increased number of Static Shock procs with the faster offhand which would make them perfectly balanced. Change Lava Lash to be weapon speed neutral and then offhand speed is no longer an issue for raiding enhancement shaman.
An alternate solution could be changing Lava Lash to deal 15% of our AP as fire damage (20% if FT is in the offhand) to make the weapon speed of our offhand irrelevant. The glyph could then be buffed to something along the lines of increasing the critical strike damage bonus of lava lash by 25%. That would have the added bonus of throwing a bone to those stubborn enough to PVP with a two handed weapon.
Easiest solution is just to change Lava Lash to do 3 times your offhand damage per second in fire damage. That would make it completely weapon speed neutral and since the new Flametongue is already weapon speed neutral the only thing left that would be affected by having a slow weapon would be Stormstrike. The offhand portion of Stormstrike is basically a normal melee strike affected by armor so the loss wouldn't be that dramatic and actually would be perfectly offset by the slight increase we would see in Static Shock frequency.
Running the Sim and changing my offhand speed from 2.5 to 1.5 I end up losing 42 dps from Stormstrike for using the faster weapon. However I gain an additional 43 dps from the increased number of Static Shock procs with the faster offhand which would make them perfectly balanced. Change Lava Lash to be weapon speed neutral and then offhand speed is no longer an issue for raiding enhancement shaman.
I like this idea, it's fairly simple, and a very neutral DPS change. Plus it's a mechanic that they have already implemented for Paladins, so we know the code is there.
The only thing I want to mention, is that MW will still favor slow offhands for the increase proc frequency from SS and LL.
Elemental Shaman: You're OOM. Enhancement Shaman: So are you.
I like this idea, it's fairly simple, and a very neutral DPS change. Plus it's a mechanic that they have already implemented for Paladins, so we know the code is there.
The only thing I want to mention, is that MW will still favor slow offhands for the increase proc frequency from SS and LL.
Good point, Lightning Bolt damage dropped by 44 from the reduced MW charges. However swapping FT for LS for my third glyph gave Static Shock another 10dps with the faster offhand. So the slow offhand is better but not by a significant enough margin that you would skip tier upgrades to hold onto your slow one.
As for a percentage of straight AP, not sure they would want to use a mechanic like that since it will have a lot more variance then I think they want for any ability. Think about how much your AP varies especially with procs like mirror adding 1000AP and buffs like Battle Shout. It would make Lava Lash even weaker in PvP where your AP level is low and would make it stronger in PvE when what we need is exactly the reverse of that.
As for a percentage of straight AP, not sure they would want to use a mechanic like that since it will have a lot more variance then I think they want for any ability. Think about how much your AP varies especially with procs like mirror adding 1000AP and buffs like Battle Shout. It would make Lava Lash even weaker in PvP where your AP level is low and would make it stronger in PvE when what we need is exactly the reverse of that.
I'm unsure what ability you're referring to. I meant the Prot Paladin's spell: Hammer of the Righteous, which hits for 4x weapon DPS. A similar mechanic for Lava Lash is exactly what you suggested.
Last edited by Nevets_69 : 03/25/09 at 11:31 PM.
Reason: Woops, totally missed that post after submitting my first one.
Elemental Shaman: You're OOM. Enhancement Shaman: So are you.
I'm unsure what ability you're referring to. I meant the Prot Paladin's spell: Hammer of the Righteous, which hits for 4x weapon DPS. A similar mechanic for Lava Lash is exactly what you suggested.
I was commenting on Mooselees post (above yours and he also crossposted it in the other thread).
I know about Hammer of Righteous, that suggestion I posted was actually someone else's originally in the WF glyph monster thread and they referenced Hammer of Righteous in their post (I think it was Nerdrage but not positive).
This would undermine the new two piece Tier-8 set bonus:
(2) Set: Increases the damage done by Lava Lash and Stormstrike by 20%.
Having finally fixed the MQ/FT bug and changed FT to deal damage based on weapon speed, I doubt they'll revert all those changes for 3.1. Testing tonight has yielded yet another 1.5 speed weapon which, apart from the speed, is beautifully itemized. It's a drop from General Vezax (10-man) on normal difficulty:
We are now at the point where the only bosses left to test are Yogg-Saron and Algalon. It's becoming more and more likely that our slow offhand is a trash drop, or an undiscovered hard-mode drop. I wish they would just release the full loot tables instead of just making us speculate whether or not unlucky shaman will be using a badge offhand through Ulduar.
I doubt we will see Algalon or Yogg tested on the PTR publicly at all. We haven't seen the hard modes defeated that much to know even near the full loot tables yet for the instance so we may still see a slow offhand.
I doubt we will see Algalon or Yogg tested on the PTR publicly at all. We haven't seen the hard modes defeated that much to know even near the full loot tables yet for the instance so we may still see a slow offhand.
Not that it matters much but that's not actually how the system supposedly works.
Whenever a boss is spawned their loot is already in place and can be datamined even if no one wins it. There was an interesting thread back when glaives were the shit about consecutively entering BT the moment after a maintanence cycle (when everything was reset and hopefully before anyone with a glaive logged on) and trying to query the server for a glaive. Once you could query it successfully you would camp that instance preventing it from resetting, basically guaranteeing yourself a glaive if you one-shot illidan.
So in regards to the PTR we've pretty much seen those bosses loot tables. There could still be trash drops we haven't seen (since I don't believe they have activated all the trash yet) and we haven't seen Algalon or Yogg yet so a slow offhand or one-hand weapon could be still be hiding there.
The problem with the hope of having a good OH from Yogg or Alg is that it goes against Blizzard's loot distribution in the past. Generally, OHs are seen as 'lower tier' weapons (less badges, less arena points, drop from trash, etc.). So I don't think that we will see a good OH from the two end raid bosses, which means we probably have to hope for trash.
Actually take a look at the latest loot list on MMO-Champion. There are 12 trash drops shown there for the 25 man instance which seems likely to be all the 25 man trash loot we are going to see. Naxx 25 only has 4 trash drops and Naxx 10 has 5 of them. So either the offhand will be from 10 man trash (The Stray II) or it will be a slow one-handed axe/mace from Yogg/Alg that can be offhanded or there just isn't one in the zone yet.
Actually take a look at the latest loot list on MMO-Champion. There are 12 trash drops shown there for the 25 man instance which seems likely to be all the 25 man trash loot we are going to see. Naxx 25 only has 4 trash drops and Naxx 10 has 5 of them. So either the offhand will be from 10 man trash (The Stray II) or it will be a slow one-handed axe/mace from Yogg/Alg that can be offhanded or there just isn't one in the zone yet.
Based on the number of fast offhands that we've seen, I still think there just simply is not a slow OH in that zone. I can't fathom a reason for them to implement 4-5 (correct me if I'm wrong on the number) fast mace/fist OHs (note that I'm not even including all the daggers and swords that other DWing class might want to use) in the loot tables for this one instance. It doesn't add up at all. Count up the options Rogues have for OHs right now versus the zero Shaman have. Then consider the fact that a handful of them are maces, which traditionally Rogues don't even use in PvE.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: the itemization team has just screwed up, and we shouldn't hold our breaths for undiscovered loot. Even if there is a lone slow OH hiding in there somewhere, is everyone here okay with having a single option when there are fast maces and fists that are likely to be sharded the first time they drop?
The problem with the hope of having a good OH from Yogg or Alg is that it goes against Blizzard's loot distribution in the past. Generally, OHs are seen as 'lower tier' weapons (less badges, less arena points, drop from trash, etc.). So I don't think that we will see a good OH from the two end raid bosses, which means we probably have to hope for trash.
In a way it does. Odds are just as high with all of the fast offhand maces that a slow mh will pop out of either of them and you'll just be battling a rogue for their mh to put a fat mace in your oh. Aside from healer maces I don't recall many, if any, mh only maces.
Son, to me a robot's just a garbage can with sparks comin' out it.
I doubt that blizzard will leave enhancement shamans without an off-hand in the raid they advertise as having more loot then all of BC raids put together , don't you?
If such a weapon has not yet been looted it might have more to do with the bosses available ( or the hard modes available ) - maybe we will strike gold next week
( I don't think we should expect the final boss to drop one, like in Naxx. I think that a "hard mode" will be the source for this weapon, and many more sweet items that were not available on the PTR )
( I don't think we should expect the final boss to drop one, like in Naxx. I think that a "hard mode" will be the source for this weapon, and many more sweet items that were not available on the PTR )
Hard mode loot becomes possible to data mine the moment the boss is spawned. So we have basically seen all the currently available hard mode loot. They would need to add the item to a table or change the speed of a weapon or it would have to be on Yogg/Alg for us to get a slow offhand from ulduar at this point.
I was commenting on Mooselees post (above yours and he also crossposted it in the other thread).
I know about Hammer of Righteous, that suggestion I posted was actually someone else's originally in the WF glyph monster thread and they referenced Hammer of Righteous in their post (I think it was Nerdrage but not positive).
Indeed it was
Thank you for pushing this and making a thread in the DPS forum. Like others, I am starting to get worried too; I don't want to go into Uldaur using my Stray!
This definitely feels like a situation where the Dev team hasn't been talking to the itemization team. Making Lava Lash speed neutral opens up so many OH possibilities for us, and seems like the easiest solution.
Hard mode loot becomes possible to data mine the moment the boss is spawned. So we have basically seen all the currently available hard mode loot. They would need to add the item to a table or change the speed of a weapon or it would have to be on Yogg/Alg for us to get a slow offhand from ulduar at this point.
I doubt that the loot becomes 'activated' the moment a boss is killed allowing it to be datamined. You will see items 'datamined' sometimes since the boss possibly was killed by their internal team for example (such as how Algalon loot was seen on the PTR).
I just doubt we have seen all the loot considering how small many boss loot tables still are compared to others. Doesn't help that we don't have a true good compilation on any site yet though since you have to either search through the many posts on MMO Champ, the incomplete lists on World of Raids or whatever has been put on wowhead so far.
Forgive my elemental ignorance, but why don't they make shaman imbues "unique-equipped"?
1. It keeps the existing "balance" of enhancement offhands by making fast offhands almost as good as slow offhands.
2. It basically forces WF/FT which is what they want for enhancement anyway (which by definition prevents the FT/FT enhancement caster build that scales too well with the current FT coefficient.)
3. It prevents those experimental caster builds that the other specs are always trying.. dual-wield FT elemental and dual-wield earthliving resto.
I'm sure this idea has been entertained in the past, it just seems so simple...
I doubt that the loot becomes 'activated' the moment a boss is killed allowing it to be datamined. You will see items 'datamined' sometimes since the boss possibly was killed by their internal team for example (such as how Algalon loot was seen on the PTR).
This is completely wrong, as Rouncer has said. When a boss spawns, its loot is already predetermined and stored as data. If you have the correct link ids, you can link to it. Why you can't simply just ping to find out your loot is because once someone has it on them, the link will always work. A few souls have been doing this with Kaelthas to get Ashes of Alar, because they no long exist on most servers because you have to consume them to use the mount now.
Originally Posted by Apate
Zyla, International Man of a Certain Standard.
Originally Posted by Wraithlin
What have you brought to this discussion? The usual vacuous and contentless tripe that you contribute to these forums - no more and no less.
Pretty sure no one killed Hodir in hardmode the other day but we have a nice list of the hardmode loot from him on MMO anyway.
and keep in mind that Zyla can't troll for a couple more weeks so he has to tell the truth or the ashes will ignite on his forehead and horribly disfigure him.
As for Algalon's loot, the GMs most likely didn't kill him, they just spawned him to check something and that's why we were able to data mine some of his loot. Do you really see them spawning him on the PTR and then fighting him there or even wasting the time to deathtouch him? Wouldn't there be standard yells and what not throughout the PTR if they had killed him? Why would they want to test Algalon on the PTR considering all the lag, crashes and other joys when they have nice completely lagless internal servers to test things on?
Pretty sure no one killed Hodir in hardmode the other day but we have a nice list of the hardmode loot from him on MMO anyway.
Besides, it would be a very nice little slap in the face if the only viable OH dropped from a Hard mode boss. I mean what about all those people that are just not terribly great at that. People that have cleared all content, and do so every week, yet simply can't get more than one drake down on Sartharion. I would think that that segment is larger than the one that drop 2-3 drakes.
Hardmode loot should be better in terms of itemlevel, perhaps even in terms of better itemized stats, not baseline value like speed. Well, now that I think about it, actualyl that would fit too if we went from 2.5-6 to 2.7-8. but not 1.X to 2.6+.
I'm a Hunter, so that would be like the ranged weapons being 1.9 speed and then a hard mode loot is the required 2.8-9. I would be rather annoyed that keeping my older outdated gun would serve me better. Which is what it looks like for you guys (and my alt).
Besides, it would be a very nice little slap in the face if the only viable OH dropped from a Hard mode boss. I mean what about all those people that are just not terribly great at that. People that have cleared all content, and do so every week, yet simply can't get more than one drake down on Sartharion. I would think that that segment is larger than the one that drop 2-3 drakes.
Hardmode loot should be better in terms of itemlevel, perhaps even in terms of better itemized stats, not baseline value like speed. Well, now that I think about it, actualyl that would fit too if we went from 2.5-6 to 2.7-8. but not 1.X to 2.6+.
I'm a Hunter, so that would be like the ranged weapons being 1.9 speed and then a hard mode loot is the required 2.8-9. I would be rather annoyed that keeping my older outdated gun would serve me better. Which is what it looks like for you guys (and my alt).
The main hand is hard mode loot. They probably made it hardmode loot so that it could have a higher iLvL since they are not going to put a bunch of slow weapons in a instance for enhancement.
As for the loot 'activation' bit I am not going to argue about since in the end we really don't know 100% how it is done. But I guess we will find out in the coming weeks (or I guess someone could try getting a answer out of GC :p).
03/25/09, 5:47 PM
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