[Enhancement] 3.1 changes - new rules in place - Page 35

Rouncer · 04/17/09, 9:13 AM

Couple of things,

Frostbrand Weapon is still broken and giving far less of a coefficient then it is supposed to (6% instead of 10% or possibly 12% if the 20% buff also affected the coefficient) and even though the debuff sticks to Boss Dummies it won't stick to any Boss that is immune to the snare.

YenLoWang · 04/17/09, 10:43 AM

A slow One-Hand axe off Yogg Saron 10 man.

Touch of Madness

Kaaji1359 · 04/17/09, 11:17 AM

So here's a question... More than likely, Vulmir, the Northern Tempest is our best in slot OH now. What I'm wondering is if Vulmir, the Northern Tempest is better than Golden Saronite Dragon for MH. Does the 18 higher max damage compensate for the loss in 9.8 DPS (I don't think this is something you can sim, as the sim GUI doesn't have an option for max damage, only speed and DPS)? Both stats are insanely good...

I realize that there is probably going to be a better MH realized, but for now, which is better.

OnosKT · 04/17/09, 11:29 AM

I don't think vulmir it is better. It will depend a bit on gear for the tradeoff between expertise and haste. But that gem, the saronite dragon has means 32AP or 16(20 with bonus)hit or 16crit/4hit

Kyro · 04/17/09, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Couple of things,

Frostbrand Weapon is still broken and giving far less of a coefficient then it is supposed to (6% instead of 10% or possibly 12% if the 20% buff also affected the coefficient) and even though the debuff sticks to Boss Dummies it won't stick to any Boss that is immune to the snare.

Are you talking about the Frozen Power talent?

My tests are showing it broken, but broken in the sense that it's giving me a 19% damage boost to spells instead of 10%.

See my post a few pages back.

I was at the level 80 target dummy, and decided to try out Frostbrand with the new Frozen Power talent.

In series 1, I stood there and simply hit ES until I had 50 hits (non-crits). No weapon buffs, flasks or anything, no melee attacks.

In series 2, I put FB on both weapons, and dropped WF totem (to help ensure the FB debuff was always applied). I then put myself into auto-attack, but only used ES (no SS or any other ability).

Data:

Series 1: no weapon buffs
ES: 50 hits: 1,392 average

Series 2: FB/FB
ES: 50 hits: 1,653 average

Now, Frozen Power should've boosted ES damage by 10%. According to this, I would've expected ES to hit for an average of 1,531 or so in series 2. However, my data suggests an average increase in damage of around 19%.

I will run more tests with a more statistically significant set of numbers. But it would be great if the masters of TC and number crunching could look into this. Would this suggest the Frozen Power debuff is affected by other factors?

Staticus · 04/17/09, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by YenLoWang

A slow One-Hand axe off Yogg Saron 10 man.

Touch of Madness

Nice to see an axe there (I much prefer them to maces/fists) but given it's lower quality I think it will struggle to keep up with the Northern Tempest. (on my sheet at least it comes out roughly the same, with the 41 expertise rating from the racial added to the axe)

Rouncer · 04/17/09, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by Kyro

Are you talking about the Frozen Power talent?

My tests are showing it broken, but broken in the sense that it's giving me a 19% damage boost to spells instead of 10%.

See my post a few pages back.

No, the coefficient of Frostbrand. The damage proc that grants the debuff

Kittykaos · 04/17/09, 1:32 PM

I have been using WF/FB to try out the increased damage it does, the bosses are immune to the slow, but the frostbrand debuff still appears and does its job.

Rouncer · 04/17/09, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by Kittykaos

I have been using WF/FB to try out the increased damage it does, the bosses are immune to the slow, but the frostbrand debuff still appears and does its job.

Which Bosses?

Kittykaos · 04/17/09, 5:25 PM

Razorscale, XT-002, and Ignis. My driver kinda shot me in front of Flame Leviathan so I could not test it there

Haalun · 04/17/09, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kaaji1359

So here's a question... More than likely, Vulmir, the Northern Tempest is our best in slot OH now. What I'm wondering is if Vulmir, the Northern Tempest is better than Golden Saronite Dragon for MH. Does the 18 higher max damage compensate for the loss in 9.8 DPS (I don't think this is something you can sim, as the sim GUI doesn't have an option for max damage, only speed and DPS)? Both stats are insanely good...

I realize that there is probably going to be a better MH realized, but for now, which is better.

Over the long term, our DPS isn't directly affected by max damage, just average damage, which is DPS times speed, or equivalently, the average of max and min damage. Since they are both 2.6 speed, the Golden Saronite Dragon is better in terms of weapon damage. It is also better stat-wise if your hit and expertise cap is "soft" (meaning you could add or remove hit or exp gems for other DPS stats) because in that case all the hit and exp on both can be traded for your best gemmable stat via gems.

The Iron Council hard mode drop "The Masticator" is also very good: [The Masticator]. The 2.7 speed might make it stronger than ilevel 232 weapons even though it is only 226.

As a side note, I'm guessing that if there is a slow one-hand axe in Ulduar-10, there's probably one in Ulduar-25 somewhere.

Atren · 04/18/09, 12:58 AM

Concerning PvE:

Max damage quite useless stat on weapon, it has pretty much no use. Those with higher max damage, but lower dps, will also have lower minimum damage and it will on long run be less than more stricter damage range weapon with higher dps. There are no skills, spells and etc. that would bias the RNG towards max damage. Weapon DPS and speed determine how good that weapon is.

Good to see a epic 1h axe, fortunaly they made it DW'able. I wish they had made it slower as that way it would actually compete with hard mode weapons

Haalun · 04/18/09, 7:25 AM

With the flametongue change, fast/fast double FT is dead, but a slow caster mainhand with slow offhand and WF/FT is still surprisingly strong. My sim shows me doing more dps more with Wraith Strike than with Kel'Thuzad's Reach (in both cases offhanding Angry Dread). It even beats out Calamity's Grasp slightly.

Here's my setup with KT's Reach:

simulation_time                 2000
simulation_time_combatlog       30
combat_length                   6
report_count                    80
threads                         2
min_lag                         0
max_lag                         0
simulate_mana                   0

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           64
ep_crit_rating                  46
ep_hit_rating                   30
ep_expertise                    -4
ep_haste_rating                 40
ep_armor_penetration_rating     15
ep_spellpower                   28
ep_dps                          10.0
ep_mana                         200
ep_spirit                       100
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        0
bloodlust_casters               2
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    1
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    0
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       700
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000

rotation_priority_count         8
rotation_priority1              SR
rotation_priority2              SW
rotation_priority3              MW4_LB
rotation_priority4              ES
rotation_priority5              SS
rotation_priority6              MT
rotation_priority7              LS
rotation_priority8              LL

miss                            8.00
dodge                           6.50
glancing                        25.00
armor                           10645
spell_miss                      17.00
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

armor_debuff_major              20.0/20.0
armor_debuff_minor              5.0/5.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff   4.0/4.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          688/688
attack_power_buff_multiplier    0/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        10.0/10.0
spell_damage_debuff             13.0/13.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   52/52
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               1
blessing_of_wisdom              1
judgement_of_wisdom             1

flask_elixir                    flask_of_endless_rage
potion                          potion_of_speed
food                            fish_feast

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################


###############################
## ShockAndAwe EnhSim Export ##
###############################
race                 draenei
mh_speed             2.60
oh_speed             2.50
mh_dps               156.5
oh_dps               156.6
mh_crit              32.19
oh_crit              32.19
mh_hit               10.43
oh_hit               10.43
mh_expertise_rating  138.00
oh_expertise_rating  138.00
ap                   3653
melee_haste          13.24
armor_penetration    5.52
str                  131
agi                  768
int                  529
spi                  155
spellpower           1095
spell_haste          10.19
spell_crit           25.43
spell_hit            13.04
max_mana             12051
mp5                  0
mh_imbue             windfury
oh_imbue             flametongue

mh_enchant           berserking
mh_weapon            -
oh_enchant           berserking
oh_weapon            -

trinket1             mirror_of_truth
trinket2             grim_toll

totem                totem_of_dueling
set_bonus1           naxx_melee_4
set_bonus2           -
set_bonus3           -
metagem              chaotic_skyflare_diamond

glyph_major1         windfury_weapon
glyph_major2         stormstrike
glyph_major3         lightning_shield
glyph_major4         - ## slot empty

glyph_minor1         - ## no useful glyphs current implemented in the sim
glyph_minor2         - ## no useful glyphs current implemented in the sim
glyph_minor3         - ## no useful glyphs current implemented in the sim


#############
## Talents ##
#############
ancestral_knowledge       2/5
improved_shields          1/3
mental_dexterity          3/3
shamanistic_focus         1/1
flurry                    5/5
elemental_weapons         3/3
unleashed_rage            3/3
weapon_mastery            3/3
dual_wield_specialization 3/3
mental_quickness          3/3
improved_stormstrike      0/2
static_shock              3/3
maelstrom_weapon          5/5
convection                0/5
concussion                5/5
call_of_flame             3/3
elemental_devastation     3/3
reverberation             4/5
elemental_focus           0/1
elemental_fury            5/5
call_of_thunder           0/1
unrelenting_storm         0/3
elemental_precision       0/3
lightning_mastery         0/5
elemental_oath            0/2
lightning_overload        0/2
lava_flows                0/1
storm_earth_and_fire      0/3
shamanism                 0/3

And here it is with Wraitstrike:

simulation_time                 2000
simulation_time_combatlog       30
combat_length                   6
report_count                    80
threads                         2
min_lag                         0
max_lag                         0
simulate_mana                   0

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           64
ep_crit_rating                  46
ep_hit_rating                   30
ep_expertise                    -4
ep_haste_rating                 40
ep_armor_penetration_rating     15
ep_spellpower                   28
ep_dps                          10.0
ep_mana                         200
ep_spirit                       100
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        0
bloodlust_casters               2
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    1
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    0
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       700
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000

rotation_priority_count         8
rotation_priority1              SR
rotation_priority2              SW
rotation_priority3              MW4_LB
rotation_priority4              ES
rotation_priority5              SS
rotation_priority6              MT
rotation_priority7              LS
rotation_priority8              LL

miss                            8.00
dodge                           6.50
glancing                        25.00
armor                           10645
spell_miss                      17.00
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

armor_debuff_major              20.0/20.0
armor_debuff_minor              5.0/5.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff   4.0/4.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          688/688
attack_power_buff_multiplier    0/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        10.0/10.0
spell_damage_debuff             13.0/13.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   52/52
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               1
blessing_of_wisdom              1
judgement_of_wisdom             1

flask_elixir                    flask_of_endless_rage
potion                          potion_of_speed
food                            fish_feast

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

###############################
## ShockAndAwe EnhSim Export ##
###############################
race                 draenei
mh_speed             2.60
oh_speed             2.50
mh_dps               90.3
oh_dps               156.6
mh_crit              31.94
oh_crit              31.94
mh_hit               10.43
oh_hit               10.43
mh_expertise_rating  138.00
oh_expertise_rating  138.00
ap                   3589
melee_haste          13.84
armor_penetration    5.52
str                  131
agi                  747
int                  572
spi                  155
spellpower           1537
spell_haste          10.64
spell_crit           25.69
spell_hit            13.04
max_mana             12696
mp5                  0
mh_imbue             windfury
oh_imbue             flametongue

mh_enchant           berserking
mh_weapon            -
oh_enchant           berserking
oh_weapon            -

trinket1             mirror_of_truth
trinket2             grim_toll

totem                totem_of_dueling
set_bonus1           naxx_melee_4
set_bonus2           -
set_bonus3           -
metagem              chaotic_skyflare_diamond

glyph_major1         windfury_weapon
glyph_major2         stormstrike
glyph_major3         lightning_shield
glyph_major4         - ## slot empty

glyph_minor1         - ## no useful glyphs current implemented in the sim
glyph_minor2         - ## no useful glyphs current implemented in the sim
glyph_minor3         - ## no useful glyphs current implemented in the sim


#############
## Talents ##
#############
ancestral_knowledge       2/5
improved_shields          1/3
mental_dexterity          3/3
shamanistic_focus         1/1
flurry                    5/5
elemental_weapons         3/3
unleashed_rage            3/3
weapon_mastery            3/3
dual_wield_specialization 3/3
mental_quickness          3/3
improved_stormstrike      0/2
static_shock              3/3
maelstrom_weapon          5/5
convection                0/5
concussion                5/5
call_of_flame             3/3
elemental_devastation     3/3
reverberation             4/5
elemental_focus           0/1
elemental_fury            5/5
call_of_thunder           0/1
unrelenting_storm         0/3
elemental_precision       0/3
lightning_mastery         0/5
elemental_oath            0/2
lightning_overload        0/2
lava_flows                0/1
storm_earth_and_fire      0/3
shamanism                 0/3

I am not fortunate enough to have a Calamity's Grasp, but I also made a profile manually tweaking my stats to match it. My sim results:

Kel'Thuzad's Reach     6375.64
Calamity's Grasp       6437.70
Wraith Strike          6455.28

I believe this setup works in large part due to 4/5 Reverberation in the talents and MW4_LB in the rotation. I find these options better than the alternatives even with a melee mainhand, but they do increase the proportion of damage coming from spells.

Pitbuller · 04/18/09, 7:42 AM

Haalun re-run test with different lag values:

min_lag                         0
max_lag                         0

Perfect skill usage will favor spell damage more than physical damage.

Haalun · 04/18/09, 8:13 AM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

Haalun re-run test with different lag values:

min_lag                         0
max_lag                         0

Perfect skill usage will favor spell damage more than physical damage.

With lag time of 100/200, I get:

Kel'Thuzad's Reach   6262.68 dps
Calamity's Grasp     6325.30 dps
Wraith Strike        6331.35 dps

Lower DPS numbers but the same basic result. Can anyone else who has a Wraith Strike test with their gear?

Perhaps the real fly in the ointment is that it's hard to consistently use MW4 lightning bolts on movement fights. If I switch to MW5, CG comes out a little bit ahead of Wraith Strike, but KT's Reach is still behind.

Malan · 04/18/09, 8:17 AM

Originally Posted by Haalun

. If I switch to MW5, CG comes out a little bit ahead of Wraith Strike, but KT's Reach is still behind.

That's hardly surprising since KT's Reach is a lower ilvl weapon.

Haalun · 04/18/09, 8:20 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

That's hardly surprising since KT's Reach is a lower ilvl weapon.

It's the same item level as Wraith Strike (both 213).

Rouncer · 04/18/09, 9:50 AM

Originally Posted by Haalun

With the flametongue change, fast/fast double FT is dead, but a slow caster mainhand with slow offhand and WF/FT is still surprisingly strong. My sim shows me doing more dps more with Wraith Strike than with Kel'Thuzad's Reach (in both cases offhanding Angry Dread). It even beats out Calamity's Grasp slightly.

Here's my setup with KT's Reach:

spell_crit_chance_debuff        10.0/10.0

The spell crit chance debuff is only 5% now. Which puts the Wrathstrike behind Calamity's Grasp but in front of KT's Reach. Slow Caster Mainhands have always been good for us when they are imbued with Windfury because 50% of our damage is spell damage and the caster weapons have their lost melee dps compensated with spellpower by design.

Too bad there hasn't been a slow caster mainhand spotted in Ulduar, yet. If one is found then people will Sim it out and see how it compares to all the other options.

You really aren't telling us anything new here, btw, there have been numerous posts (many of them mine) pointing out that Wrathstrike mainhanded with WF is comparable to CG and the Flametongue normalization or any of the other changes for 3.1 don't affect that in the slightest.

New Topic

Frozen Power and Frostbrand

Just did some testing.

Frostbrand

Rank 9
1558 spellpower proc hit for 652-653
base damage 559-560
damage increased by 93
93/1558 = 6% spellpower coefficient

Rank 8
1558 spellpower proc hit for 648-649
base damage 492-493
damage increased by 156
156/1558 = 10% spellpower coefficient

Frozen Power

Testing done with 661 spellpower using Lightning Bolts
Average hit without Frostbrand Debuff on Target - 1315
Average hit with Frostbrand Debuff on Target - 1441
Difference 126 damage
126/1315 = 10% increase in damage from debuff

FrB/FrB - same 661 spellpower
Average hit with Frostbrand Debuff on Target - 1435

So FrB/FrB showed same damage increase as FrB.

Cross-posted on Damage Dealing Forums
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Frostbrand and Frozen Power

Karok(EU) · 04/18/09, 10:24 PM

Even with the fix to the Dancing Flame totem it still seems to be the best totem (not counting pvp totems).

A quick sim in my gear gave:

No totem: 5569.72
Dueling: 5605.56 (+35.84)
Stonebreakers: 5598.66 (+28.94)
Hex: 5603.98 (+34.26)

Asuming it does what's on the label and increase the weapon damage by 155 when you use SS:

155*2/8 = 38.75 dps (asuming it counts for both weapons and OH penalty doesn't apply)

Of course if OH penalty applies the value drops to 29.xx ((155/2 + 155)/8)

edit: Since I clearly need some sleep, I forgot crit/armor etc in the calculation.

Rouncer · 04/18/09, 10:52 PM

Karok, you are forgetting about armor and raid buffs/debuffs and crits and a lot of other things. Hopefully one of the people with one can do some real testing on it's effects so we can get it input into the sim and determine it's real value.

Karok(EU) · 04/18/09, 11:18 PM

Hopefully it will be in the sim soon aswell.
And yes I neglected crits and armor there.

I don't think raid buffs will affect it much though as its a straight weapon damage increase.
Armor(-debuffs) and crit will probably be more determinal.
Meanwhile I'll see if I can get some sensible tests for its functionality in and post it if its anywhere near meaningfull.

Smokestomp · 04/19/09, 4:55 AM

How does the PVP totem compare, the pre-3.1 BiS totem has now been buffed to 10 second duration. 100% uptime on 120 AP seems like it would be very competitive.

Vesham · 04/19/09, 9:17 AM

Hi Totemstomp! Realistically, it's still not 100% uptime, but it's fairly close with the change. It should be better than any other totem with the exception of possibly Totem of the Dancing Flame due to its high uptime. I plan to use it until definitive numbers are out for Dancing Flame.

Rouncer · 04/19/09, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Vesham

Hi Totemstomp! Realistically, it's still not 100% uptime, but it's fairly close with the change. It should be better than any other totem with the exception of possibly Totem of the Dancing Flame due to its high uptime. I plan to use it until definitive numbers are out for Dancing Flame.

Can the buff refresh itself?

rava · 04/19/09, 1:28 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Can the buff refresh itself?

Yes. It drops off very rarely.