A comment on Stoneclaw shield: the last time I tested it, a totem benefitted from the shield only if it was down BEFORE Stoneclaw was cast. So its use in PvP was even further restricted by the buff mechanic.
Personal shield should be OK to buy you a little bit of time at the start of the match, especially against comps with stealth classes. And I usually had it down at the start anyway to protect other totems.
More stuff from PTR: Frozen Power does not require you to use Frostbrand for the root effect to apply to your Frost Shock.
Originally Posted by Rounced
It's been a long time since there has been any need to test it but why would that invalidate the results?
When we get on the PTR it should be easy enough to run a proper timed test to validate the results, remove all haste and haste effects and autoattack a dummy for at least 100 minutes and see how many procs you get.
Because the testing happened before alot of changes? Regardless of its actual proc rate, in my experience, even as an offhand imbue, is completely horrible.
More stuff from PTR: Frozen Power does not require you to use Frostbrand for the root effect to apply to your Frost Shock.
That seems odd. I mean, good I guess if FB damage can't keep up (which I don't believe it can even with a 20% buff). Still strange that it isn't tied to the weapon buff.
There are other talent examples where the effects aren't linked and it makes sense since Frostbrand, even with 20% more damage is a horrible MH imbue. Windfury does 300% more damage and that's including having it run at double the proc rate on a 2.6 speed weapon and that doesn't take into account the additional Maelstrom Weapon charges.
(Panny, or anyone else who is on the PTR already, if you would like to do the testing I'm sure it would be to everyone's benefit. I haven't managed to even get the patch to download so I probably wouldn't be able to get to it till the weekend at the earliest.)
Honestly the best thing they could do would be to change the talent so that it was Shabadu's Frosty Shiv instead. Something like "When your offhand is imbued with Frostbrand your Lava Lash will do Frost damage and will have a 50/100% chance to apply Frostbrand's snare when used." in additional to the root.
Well, after multiple crashes I finally made it to a training dummy, only for the world server to go down after about 450 hits.
From glancing at Recount, it seems there were 145 FB procs out of 450 weapons swing with a CG. I forgot that it has haste though, retrying with an Angry Dread
There are other talent examples where the effects aren't linked and it makes sense since Frostbrand, even with 20% more damage is a horrible MH imbue. Windfury does 300% more damage and that's including having it run at double the proc rate on a 2.6 speed weapon and that doesn't take into account the additional Maelstrom Weapon charges.
Never mind the fact that FB is the only imbue not buffed by Elemental Weapons. I gotta think that if they're serious about FB, they'll have to add something for it to EW if they want people using it MH (like a higher proc rate). Or they'll just switch it to OH where it probably should be anyway.
Well, after multiple crashes I finally made it to a training dummy, only for the world server to go down after about 450 hits.
From glancing at Recount, it seems there were 145 FB procs out of 450 weapons swing with a CG. I forgot that it has haste though, retrying with an Angry Dread
That ratio would equal a PPM of 7.4 although more testing would certainly be useful if the server cooperates.
If it is 7.5ppm that would be roughly double the practical proc rate for Windfury Weapon on a single weapon, leaving it still as a shit choice for mainhand imbue unless there are some other changes coming.
(e) the latest one panny posted under this has a PPM of 8.3 for the 2.5 speed weapon without any haste.
I'm on the fence about the new Imp Stormstrike atm. I could see it being useful in some PvE situations, 10 mans mostly, where I occasionaly will go oom with about 10-20 secs left on my SR CD. In 25 mans on the other hand the only time I've ever gone oom is from getting an unlucky streak of mana explosions on Kel. For PvP this will be very nice. In PvP gear your max mana is much closer to your base mana, and you almost always have to use SR for the dmg reduction and will often get little to no mana from using it. At the very least its 2 more talent points.
For Frozen Power I really hope they change it from +20% dmg on the MH to the OH. For obvious reasons.
I'm slightly peeved by the change to BL/Heroism. Down to a 5 min CD but now a 10 min debuff? Sounds like they are expecting us to be wiping a lot in Ulduar. Also could be annoying on those longer fights where you can sometimes eek out a second BL if you pop the first one early.
The UR change may not seem like much but I'll certainly take the two talent points for maxing out Imp Shields or something.
Last edited by Brynmor : 02/25/09 at 4:12 AM.
Reason: Typo
To get more accurate data I should have used recount, but this gives the general idea.
edit1: And I can confirm that Thunder Capacitor now has a cooldown on each charge like the tooltip says.
edit2: Stormstrike is now 10 second cooldown and 10 second debuff as the tooltip says.
Those numbers a really strange. Why do you have lower damage numbers with 1517 spellpower and 2.6 speed weapon, then with 275 spellpower and a 2.6 speed weapon?
Those numbers a really strange. Why do you have lower damage numbers with 1517 spellpower and 2.6 speed weapon, then with 275 spellpower and a 2.6 speed weapon?
The first set of numbers were with no talents, so no elemental weapons talent. I've edited the post to make that more clear.
The first set of numbers were with no talents, so no elemental weapons talent. I've edited the post to make that more clear.
So without talents and less spellpower you did more damage with FT, then with talents and with much more spellpower? Sorry, but I still don't understand.
Looks like they broke the spellpower scaling of FT entirely. We're probably going to have to wait until they issue a new build to see actual numbers. Or possibly they changed it to scale with AP instead of SP, which would solve the whole issue with caster weapons being good for FT, but that damage looks badly nerfed if they did.
So without talents and less spellpower you did more damage with FT, then with talents and with much more spellpower? Sorry, but I still don't understand.
You're right something is strange there.
You'll notice that the damage is normalized by weapon speed. 116 for 1.4 is equivalent to 216 for 2.6. Also 211 at 2.6 is equivalent to 114 at 1.4.
Perhaps when I had no talents I had hidden spellpower that didn't show up in my character sheet from the character copy process. Or maybe there's a bug with the spellpower coefficient for FT. I'd be interested in seeing what other people get.
The Live range of FT procs at 0 spellpower should be 96 damage at 1.4 speed, 123 or 124 damage at 1.8 speed, and 178 or 179 damage at 2.6 speed.
So, they also might have buffed the base damage of FT, about 14 DPS base, from about 68 to 82.
Also, the first 3 sets of numbers you gave with talents are probably affected by a +13% spell damage debuff. That would put them in line with the other numbers. Also, the range is probably 133-134 on the 2nd set, rather than 133-144, right? The slightly differing numbers (211 to 216 and 114 to 116) could possibly be explained by a 3% damage buff from ret aura, too.
I'm slightly peeved by the change to BL/Heroism. Down to a 5 min CD but now a 10 min debuff? Sounds like they are expecting us to be wiping a lot in Ulduar. Also could be annoying on those longer fights where you can sometimes eek out a second BL if you pop the first one early.
I'm glad. Ever wiped on something like Sarth 3D with only 1 shaman in the raid? It's painful.
The Live range of FT procs at 0 spellpower should be 96 damage at 1.4 speed, 123 or 124 damage at 1.8 speed, and 178 or 179 damage at 2.6 speed.
So, they also might have buffed the base damage of FT, about 14 DPS base, from about 68 to 82.
Also, the first 3 sets of numbers you gave with talents are probably affected by a +13% spell damage debuff. That would put them in line with the other numbers. Also, the range is probably 133-134 on the 2nd set, rather than 133-144, right? The slightly differing numbers (211 to 216 and 114 to 116) could possibly be explained by a 3% damage buff from ret aura, too.
Right 133-134.
I'm pretty sure I didn't have any other buffs/debuffs on the target. I had a hunter come by for a bit, but I waited for him to finish before continuing.
I'll run it again without talents and see what happens.
edit:
No talents, no spellpower besides the imbue
spellpower weapon speed flametongue damage
211 2.6 199-200
211 1.4 107-108
add a spell power neck
275 2.6 205-206
275 1.4 110-111
BTW: I added SoE totem, and the damage didn't change (so not likely a AP scaling).
No talents, no spellpower besides the imbue
spellpower weapon speed flametongue damage
211 2.6 199-200
211 1.4 107-108
add a spell power neck
275 2.6 205-206
275 1.4 110-111
Ok, much better. If we assume, that they didn't change the base numbers, then this looks like a coefficient of around 10% with 2.6 speed and a coefficient of around 5.2% with 1.4 speed. Could also be 10% at 2.5 speed, which would be exactly that what we suggested. Now please get Mental Quickness (but not Elemental Weapons) and resume your tests.
Ok, much better. If we assume, that they didn't change the base numbers, then this looks like a coefficient of around 10% with 2.6 speed and a coefficient of around 5.2% with 1.4 speed. Could also be 10% at 2.5 speed, which would be exactly that what we suggested. Now please get Mental Quickness (but not Elemental Weapons) and resume your tests.
Except it appears that it wasn't using any of my Mental Quickness spell power to scale FT. I'm guessing that's just a bug though.
edit: That's exactly what's happening. I speced into MQ, and got no increase in FT damage.
Except it appears that it wasn't using any of my Mental Quickness spell power to scale FT. I'm guessing that's just a bug though.
edit: That's exactly what's happening. I speced into MQ, and got no increase in FT damage.
Have you tried relogging, zone-switching and rebuffing FT? Because this would be really strange. MQ increases your spellpower and FT like all other spells, should use this total number to calculate its damage. It's not like every spell needs to be specifically aware of MQ. At least that's what I would do as a programmer.
So some further questions:
- Have you used a shock (Flame Shock would be the best choice), to see whether MQ works at all?
- What happens if you put down a Flametongue Totem?
- What happens if you put Flametongue also on you other weapon?
Have you tried relogging, zone-switching and rebuffing FT? Because this would be really strange. MQ increases your spellpower and FT like all other spells, should use this total number to calculate its damage. It's not like every spell needs to be specifically aware of MQ. At least that's what I would do as a programmer.
So some further questions:
- Have you used a shock (Flame Shock would be the best choice), to see whether MQ works at all?
- What happens if you put down a Flametongue Totem?
- What happens if you put Flametongue also on you other weapon?
Relogging didn't fix it, Reapplying the imbue didn't fix it.
Flame shock, Magma totem are both affected by AP.
Adding FT to my offhand increases the FT damage of the mainhand.
I imagine that they messed something up when changing the spellpower coefficient calculation for FT. Using the pre MQ spellpower instead of the final spellpower.
02/24/09, 6:00 PM
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