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Old 03/19/09, 1:45 PM   #151
xeus
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by Daidalos View Post
Well crit is "lousy" since LHW gets about 2x the HPS increase from haste that crit does per % and even greater per rating. Obviously if you are taking regen into account it gets fuzzier.
Is that with the 3.1 AA Mechanics? LHW's would stop getting HPS increases once it's hasted below 1.0 no?

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Old 03/19/09, 1:51 PM   #152
Daidalos
Great Tiger
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Korgath
Originally Posted by xeus View Post
Is that with the 3.1 AA Mechanics? LHW's would stop getting HPS increases once it's hasted below 1.0 no?
Yes that is with 3.1 mechanics. No LHW does not stop getting haste increases since LHW is capped (throughput-wise) by the gcd. Haste lowers the gcd. That the actual cast time is lower than the gcd is irrelevant to the calculated HPS since that is calculated by the gcd.


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Old 03/19/09, 4:10 PM   #153
Skyhoof
Don Flamenco
 
Skyhoof's Avatar
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Cenarius
I'm updating the TTT with the latest changes on the PTR. Let me know if you spot any errors or have a different take on the changes.

In Patch 3.1.0, untalented Mana Spring will restore 91 mp5 (currently 85 mp5). This change will make Mana Spring equal to the paladin’s untalented Blessing of Wisdom. Talented Mana Spring will restore 109.2 mp5, the same as improved Blessing of Wisdom. Mana spring will also affect the entire raid, not just the shaman’s party. However, Mana Spring will no longer stack with BoW. Depending on how many paladins are in the raid, shaman will at times be able to keep down Healing Stream totem. Also, our talents will now boost Healing Stream by up to 45% (currently 25%).


The glyph recommendations below are for 25-man raid content. Certain glyphs such as Healing Wave defnitely shine when doing 5-man content. In addition, certain glyphs would be great for particular fights. However, these glyphs are the best to use 90% of the time in 25-man raids.

Current Recommended Major Glyphs
1. Glyph of Chain Heal
2. Glyph of Earthliving Weapon
3. Glyph of Lesser Healing Wave or Glyph of Healing Wave


After Patch 3.1.0
1. Glyph of Earth Shield
2. Glyph of Chain Heal
3. Glyph of Healing Stream

NOTE: Changed recommended glyphs after Patch 3.1.0 to Healing Stream from Earthliving Weapon upon further theorycrafting

Last edited by Skyhoof : 03/20/09 at 1:35 PM.

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Old 03/19/09, 4:28 PM   #154
Pitbuller
King Hippo
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Wildhammer (EU)
Someone would argue that healing stream glyph is least par if not superior versus Glyph of Earthliving Weapon. Both give same kind healing that you can't control.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

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Old 03/19/09, 4:51 PM   #155
hvidgaard
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Aerie Peak (EU)
Glyph of Healing Stream is far from uncontrollable. You decide when and where to put HS down, and the outcome of the glyph is far more predictable than a 5% increased chance to proc EL weapon. That is however not the same as it's better, I'll leave theorycraft and testing to answer that.

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Old 03/19/09, 5:06 PM   #156
MatsT
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Frostmane (EU)
Originally Posted by Daidalos View Post
While strictly true the overall hps of RT->HW->HW is not, esp if you do not count the full RT hot since it will be overwritten (assuming you just spam rt->hw->hw).

Edit: I added spamming rotations of rt->hw->hw with and without healing way taking into account proper (average) hot amounts done.
I believe the "best" HPS rotation is rather RT->HW->HW->CH->HW->HW (with chain heal on the riptided person obviously). This also does not require any cooldown reduction on Riptide. This is obviously mostly academic since there's no way to do this without massive overhealing, in actual fights Chain Heal spam with the occasional Riptide/HW when it seems possible without overhealing (typically after breath on sartharion or on drake tank during twilight torment) is probably best HPS.

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Old 03/19/09, 5:08 PM   #157
AlphaJew
Glass Joe
 
AlphaJew's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Wyrmrest Accord
I would argue that 2/2 Blessing of the Eternals interferes somewhat with the Glyph of Earthliving. Also, Earthliving is a RNG proc on people only after you've healed them, giving a high likelihood that your EL's gonna be mostly/all overhealing. Healing Stream can be used as somewhat of a pre-emptive HoT, like a Renew or Rejuv/Lifebloom before incoming damage.

As someone mentioned earlier, I'm pretty more focused on 25-man raiding. Personally, I'm probably going to be running with Chain Heal, Earth Shield, and Healing Stream glyphs come 3.1. I'm just still trying to decide if we're better off leaving things as they are now (stacking our Resto shamans in one group with the other healers to feed them Mana Tides) or if we should spread them out to get Healing Streams on as many groups as possible.

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Old 03/19/09, 5:31 PM   #158
Vuldunobetra
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Cenarius
Originally Posted by Pitbuller View Post
Someone would argue that healing stream glyph is least par if not superior versus Glyph of Earthliving Weapon. Both give same kind healing that you can't control.
I'm not excited about either. Both glyphs appear to add about 1% to my healing, I can't control it, and it is unlikely to save anyone's life. Looks like both would add about 1% to my healing total. Last night WWS says I did 3700 HPS, so a 1% boost would be 37 HPS.

Glyph of Riptide adds two more ticks, at around 750 per tick. If I average one RT every 10 seconds and assume 75% overheal on the HoTs, that comes to 37 HPS, same as above. I dunno if these numbers make sense, as WWS doesn't report HoT overheal ticks. But the big bonus is that the HoT is around another 6 seconds for Chain Heal to get a 25% boost.

IMO, the biggest unexplored area for Shaman is RT/CH bonus. If you could cycle RT across 4+ targets, to maximize the HoT, and bounce CH off of them just before the last tick, the raw healing is huge. Using numbers from Dal's spreadsheet:
CH spam: 8577 HPS
RT/CH/CH: 9027 HPS
I'm assuming a lot here, that each RT ticks 6 times before CH consumes it, and no overheal. The breakeven on HPS needs 3.6 ticks from each RT.

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Old 03/19/09, 5:56 PM   #159
Bnol
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Boulderfist
Originally Posted by Vuldunobetra View Post
IMO, the biggest unexplored area for Shaman is RT/CH bonus. If you could cycle RT across 4+ targets, to maximize the HoT, and bounce CH off of them just before the last tick, the raw healing is huge. Using numbers from Dal's spreadsheet:
CH spam: 8577 HPS
RT/CH/CH: 9027 HPS
I'm assuming a lot here, that each RT ticks 6 times before CH consumes it, and no overheal. The breakeven on HPS needs 3.6 ticks from each RT.
This could work for timer based aoe damage so you can more accurately predict the incoming damage. The only problem is you have to set it up more than 15 sec beforehand (with the 2 pc Tier 8)if you want to have 3 targets, and most timer based aoe is based off of cooldowns, thus the boss could delay, causing RT to expire and causing you to waste more time/mana. It would also require the other healers to not snipe those heals since you now have to cast the chain heal through multiple targets, which will take some time even if you have a sub 2 sec CH cast. I could see it having some potential in the 10-man environment with 2 healers, but again it would only be on 2 targets really (melee target/ranged target), thus the glyph isn't really useful since you can do this already without any glyph or without the 2-pc.

I am not sure if it is really worth it, especially since you are sacrificing a major glyph for just that specific situation. Chain heal also isn't always an effective heal, any fight that you have to spread out reduces the effectiveness of CH. It would likely be too mana taxing because riptide isn't really designed to be a sustained or multiple target hot (and we don't have talents or a form to increase its efficiency to a sustainable degree), and a lot of it would just be overhealing. Riptide-chain heal is nice in certain limited raid situations and is nice for 5-man healing, but I would not use a major to have more than 2 riptides to chain heal through.

Yes theoretically you could output massive heal numbers, but it just is not that useful in practice.

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Old 03/19/09, 6:00 PM   #160
Layotees
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by Vuldunobetra View Post
I'm not excited about either. Both glyphs appear to add about 1% to my healing, I can't control it, and it is unlikely to save anyone's life. Looks like both would add about 1% to my healing total. Last night WWS says I did 3700 HPS, so a 1% boost would be 37 HPS.

Glyph of Riptide adds two more ticks, at around 750 per tick. If I average one RT every 10 seconds and assume 75% overheal on the HoTs, that comes to 37 HPS, same as above. I dunno if these numbers make sense, as WWS doesn't report HoT overheal ticks. But the big bonus is that the HoT is around another 6 seconds for Chain Heal to get a 25% boost.

IMO, the biggest unexplored area for Shaman is RT/CH bonus. If you could cycle RT across 4+ targets, to maximize the HoT, and bounce CH off of them just before the last tick, the raw healing is huge. Using numbers from Dal's spreadsheet:
CH spam: 8577 HPS
RT/CH/CH: 9027 HPS
I'm assuming a lot here, that each RT ticks 6 times before CH consumes it, and no overheal. The breakeven on HPS needs 3.6 ticks from each RT.
Timing Riptide like this is about as theoretically useful as the Lifebloom bloom. Practically, it's not going to yield you too much effective healing.

As it stands now, if you know a large burst of damage is coming, like say, from XT-002's Tympanic Tantrum, you can already keep two Riptides active amongst a clump of players and use them as you see fit. The glyph will allow you to use three, but the times when three will be useful are going to be much much less common than times when two are useful.

On the subject of Earthliving vs. Healing Stream: Earthliving is definitely going to get more mileage while tank healing, but, most resto shaman wont be doing that. From a raid healing standpoint, according to Daidalos' spreadsheet, glyph of healing stream totem provides roughly 21 HPS per person (~105), while glyph of earthliving weapon is a bit more variable.

While chain heal spamming, you're looking at 4 chances per cast with a 25% chance to proc earthliving, with 264 HPS per proc. My next few problems with this glyph are where the numbers get over my head, and probably better suited for someone else to crunch to find the actual value of this glyph. In a null damage situation, you only get one chance to proc earthliving per cast. In a constant damage situation, there is always the chance you will proc earthliving on someone who already has it, which will yield less HPS than if you had procced it on someone who doesn't.

Glyph of Earthliving Weapon's viability in comparison to Glyph of Healing Stream Totem also has a lot to do with how many targets in a given situation you can bounce chain heals off of. How often are the casters going to be able to clump up in Ulduar? How many melee do you generally run with? This isn't to say Glyph of Healing Stream Totem doesn't have similar drawbacks; such as it's lesser value in encounters where raid damage is randomly determined, and a proc off of direct heals is going to be better than a hot to your specific group.

If Glyph of Healing Stream totem does come out to being better in a constant and predictable damage scenario, which I'm fairly certain from my admittidely weak grasp on the numbers, then the determining factor on which of these glyphs to use is going to be purely based on which fights are tougher in Ulduar; the ones with constant damage, or the ones with unpredictable bursts.

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Old 03/19/09, 6:09 PM   #161
Skyhoof
Don Flamenco
 
Skyhoof's Avatar
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Cenarius
I took another look at Daidalos' spreadsheet and adjusted some formulas.

The numbers below are based on the new talent to boost healing stream by 45% and 3000 spellpower.
  • Earthliving ticks for 794, or 265 HPS and would heal for a total of 3,176
  • Healing stream gives you 460 healing per tick, which is 230 HPS

Taking the data that Stassart got from his combat parsing mod: [Resto] Healing Equivalency Points

***Remainder of the post redacted***

I didn't realize that the combat log didn't show HoTs on targets already at full health but did show ticks of Healing Stream on targets at full health. I redid the math in this post:

[Resto] 3.1 PTR changes and testing

Conclusion: Glyph of Healing Stream provides more HPS than Glyph of Earthliving Weapon after Patch 3.1.0

Last edited by Skyhoof : 03/20/09 at 1:41 PM.

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Old 03/19/09, 6:11 PM   #162
stassart
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Kindralas View Post
The Earth Shield glyph seems promising, but I have no clue why people would be giving up Water Mastery for it. The Chain Heal glyph is largely worthless as it is, that fourth bounce amounting to another random Riptide. Generally speaking, you're better off with having Earth Shield, Water Mastery, and Mana Tide if you're a Chain Heal spammer, perhaps dropping Mana Tide for LHW if you're on tanks, or HW if you mix up your heals a little more on raid healing.
I wanted to know how effective the chain heal hops were for me, so my shaman_hep program breaks chain heal up into each hop (it needed to do this anyways to evaluate the effect of spell power and crit):

"Chain Heal": hits: 12548, effective healing: 22649055 (40.07% of player's overall)
	Total (raw) healing: 49879726 (46.60% of player's overall)
	Crits: 4651 (37.07%)
	Averages:
		Non-crit: 3364, crit: 5011, effective: 1804, overall: 3975
	Overheals:
		Non-crit: count: 4021, total: 13837375, ave: 3441
		Crit: count: 2769, total: 13393296, ave: 4836
	Number of Chain Heal casts started: 4577 (6.69% canceled)
	Initial target hits: 4271, crits: 1563 (36.60%)
		Effective: 8482585 (37.45%), Total: 30852062 (61.85%)
		Ave: non crit: 6098, crit: 9172, effective: 1986, overall: 7223
		Overheals non-crit count: 2297, non-crit ave over: 5047
		Overheals crit count: 1435, crit ave over: 7508
		Overhealed amount: 22369477 (72.51%)
	Second target hits: 3335 (78.08% bounced), crits: 1236 (37.06%)
		Effective: 8446070 (37.29%), Total: 12085015 (24.23%)
		Ave: non crit: 3051, crit: 4595, effective: 2532, overall: 3623
		Overheals non-crit count: 955, non-crit ave over: 1746
		Overheals crit count: 752, crit ave over: 2620
		Overhealed amount: 3638945 (30.11%)
	Third target hits: 2711 (63.47% bounced), crits: 999 (36.85%)
		Effective: 3939075 (17.39%), Total: 4903916 (9.83%)
		Ave: non crit: 1518, crit: 2306, effective: 1452, overall: 1808
		Overheals non-crit count: 519, non-crit ave over: 874
		Overheals crit count: 384, crit ave over: 1330
		Overhealed amount: 964841 (19.67%)
	Fourth target hits: 2231 (52.24% bounced), crits: 853 (38.23%)
		Effective: 1781325 (7.86%), Total: 2038733 (4.09%)
		Ave: non crit: 763, crit: 1156, effective: 798, overall: 913
		Overheals non-crit count: 250, non-crit ave over: 484
		Overheals crit count: 198, crit ave over: 688
		Overhealed amount: 257408 (12.63%)
	Glyph of Chain heal: effective: 1781325 (3.15% of total effective)
	Processed by cast: 4577, time: 4207, less accurate: order: 7, count: 6
	HPS increased by:
		1 SP = 0.293140
			(0.0758 + 0.1176 + 0.0665 + 0.0332)
		1 Haste rating = 0.216599187121454
		1 crit rating = 0.180292816810316
			(0.0402 + 0.0649 + 0.0472 + 0.0280)
		1 int = 0.0595961392630558
			(0.0133 + 0.0214 + 0.0156 + 0.0093)
So for me Glyph of Chain heal adds 3.15% to my total effective healing. This is not a small amount at all.

shaman_hep - Addons - Curse
(Latest version uploaded is 1.40, but it hasn't been approved for download as of me posting this yet, and still shows 1.22 as the latest. 1.40 has a lot of new functionality.)

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Old 03/19/09, 6:28 PM   #163
Layotees
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Doomhammer
Shouldn't Healing Stream's HPS be five times that? I may be missing something but your numbers appear to be based off of Healing Stream's single target HPS.

Edit: duh, the glyph. I'm dumb.

Last edited by Layotees : 03/19/09 at 6:36 PM.

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Old 03/19/09, 6:43 PM   #164
KraxisSingular
Banned
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Runetotem (EU)
Did Healing Stream stay partywide? I'm running under that ssumption since a raidwide HST that is talented for 45% and glyphed would on fights like Sapph or Mimir (the Keristrasza'esque boss right?) be a wonderful, perhaps too wonderful tool.

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Old 03/19/09, 6:48 PM   #165
Layotees
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Doomhammer
Yes it did.

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