i think the LHW glyph is vastly underestimated. Sure you can min/max hps for a slightl edge on some fights and what not but there are more issues to consider depending on playstyle.
First of all a glyphed LHW makes spot healing the MT meaningful without needing Tidal Waves to do it.
Second it gives you a solid option for solo tank healing duty that has a couple of advantages over HW (depending on the fight obviously). There are 2 things i enjoy a lot about healing with LHW instead of HW: Not relying on Tidal Waves which in some fights can be a hassle to keep up and healing in smaller increments leads to a practical efficiency better than the pure theoretical numbers when more than 1 person is healing a given tank.
Finally i get to save myself from putting any points into Healing Way.
Of course, most of this are situational and can change depending on your guild's class composition, you wont get the same returns of your ES or LHW glyphs if you are running with 2-3 other ES happy resto shamans.
Basically, LHW glyph (and its attached playstyle) gives a certain versatility that is difficult to quantify and that some people value more than a slight increase in also situational hps or efficiency.
Personally I will start off 3.1 with a LHW glyph but ready to drop it if Ulduar and/or it's attached hardmodes are not friendly towards it.
Casting HW or LHW without Tidal Waves is very inefficient and should generally be avoided. In reality it's very seldom an issue since Chain Heal is used so much, and if needed you can always throw a riptide. In a typical bossfight I don't think I use up more than 20% of my Tidal Wave proccs.
Seeing as how LHW is significantly worse HPS than HW, if you can afford to cast LHW without people dying, either the encounter is easy or you are bringing too many healers.
I wonder what fight or situation we might be able to utilize this effectively and warrant giving up a glyph slot for it.
Looking over the boss abilities, I imagine the Stoneclaw Glyph will be pretty useful. There are a LOT of abilities that use RSTS to hit a single player with a nuke plus a massive short-duration DOT. In general, when Blizzard wants to make an encounter really difficult they do it by combining massive AoE damage with heavy individual RSTS damage. I'm not sure how difficult it will be to survive under these conditions (my work schedule kept me off the PTR), but it's certainly not out of the question to think that a 4340 instant self-shield will pay for itself in a lot of fights. In an environment where there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer to the third glyph slot, I wouldn't write off the Stoneclaw glyph. I'm going to use it for my third slot this week (healing U10, might do some healing on U25) and see how it goes. If I have mana issues I'll switch to Water Mastery or Mana Tide.
Casting HW or LHW without Tidal Waves is very inefficient and should generally be avoided. In reality it's very seldom an issue since Chain Heal is used so much, and if needed you can always throw a riptide. In a typical bossfight I don't think I use up more than 20% of my Tidal Wave proccs.
I disagree, due to GCD limitations LHW is not dependant on tidal waves.
Originally Posted by MatsT
Seeing as how LHW is significantly worse HPS than HW,
Not really for what i am talking about (Glyphed lhw vs non tidal waved HW)
My whole point is the versatility of not having to depend on tidal waves. How do you handle tank healing duty? a tank with HW? riptide + hw+hw rotation? CH +hw+hw ?
Not really for what i am talking about (Glyphed lhw vs non tidal waved HW).
On page 4 of the resto best practices thread, Adramelech showed that (for his gear and spec at the time) glyphed LHW on ES target is the same hps as HW -- before considering Tidal Wave haste or Healing Way. The advantage of LHW is not that it provides better throughput than HW when glyphed; it does not. It does have advantages, such as landing faster, overhealing less, and not depending as much on Tidal Waves.
Edit: My response was ambiguous on purpose. When not taking advantage of the glyph, LHW is significantly worse than HW. Even when glyphed, LHW is significantly worse than HW when considering either Tidal Waves or Healing Way. And yet, LHW is still a valuable tool.
On page 4 of the resto best practices thread, Adramelech showed that (for his gear and spec at the time) glyphed LHW on ES target is the same hps as HW --
Indeed, thats why i was answering the "significantly worse" part of his comment.
Tidal Waves uptime is quite close to 100% unless you are spamming LHW. Casting non-hasted single target heals is very inefficient. If you're gonna waste time doing that, another healing class would be much better suited for your healing spot. Trying to let each healer use his most efficient spells as much as possible is generally the best strategy to get as much healing as possible out of as few healers as possible. For a shaman this generally means cast Healing Waves when Tidal Waves are up and they won't overheal, and otherwise Chain Heal or spot Riptides when you need to move or can't effectively use other heals.
Yes, there are some situations where not much healing is needed and a LHW every 3 seconds will keep the tank up, no matter what glyph you use.
Trying to let each healer use his most efficient spells as much as possible is generally the best strategy to get as much healing as possible out of as few healers as possible.
From a theoretical point of view you are right, however several times you just roll with what you have. For example, would you sub out all resto shamans on a hard patchwerk style of fight because our single target healing isnt as good as, lets say, paladins?
I have to agree with Abrojo there, but I'd take it with a strong dose of EJ-salt.
Yes, reality is miles and leagues from the theoretical optimum: I virtually never do raidhealing since we ~never have a Pallytank and so I got used to doing tankhealing. I am even contemplating dropping Imp Chain Heal as a result, or at least making me two PvE healspecs.
OTOH, this is usually about finding the "optimum". Which means assuming ideal conditions so they're achieveable in a realistic manner ingame. And assuming optimal or near-optimal raid setups is just part of that.
SQUEAK.
-- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
I see few reasons why to keep lhw hasted with Tidal waves:
Heal someone faster then other healer will do it (paladin for example with flash of light), so you heal is effective and other guy overheals. In this case raid doesn't benefit that much, heal stealing (but you can rape the healing meters like this, so it's cool if ppl aren't dying)
Healing raid on demand (like after KT iceblocks someone) - it's nice to have first heal after 0.8seconds, but as gcd are triggered and it's not hasted you will be able to start casting 3rd lhw only after 2gcds and not sooner.
Using riptide on raid is tricky, as the hot effect is hard to predict because usually target is topped after taking dmg and unless the damage is periodic so hot tends to overheal. So using riptide from hps and hpm perspective is worse then lhw if you know the most likely hot will overheal.
spell
avg heal
hps
hpm
LHW
5597,57
4323
10,42
Riptide without hot
3722
2875
6,176
Riptide with no overheal
8111,6
6265
13,45
2600sp, 21,19%crit, 520haste, with AA
It is a min/maxing as Abrojo said and real situations are different and ain't all about math, just it's not bad to know the theory before doing the practice
Last edited by Adramelech86 : 04/20/09 at 12:30 PM.
I see few reasons why to keep lhw hasted with Tidal waves:
Heal someone faster then other healer will do it (paladin for example with flash of light), so you heal is effective and other guy overheals. In this case raid doesn't benefit that much, heal stealing (but you can rape the healing meters like this , so it's cool if ppl aren't dying)
This flawed argument keeps getting brought up. A faster heal will reduce the total overhealing in the raid, not increase it. The faster your heal is, the lower chance that someone else will start casting a heal on the same target while you are already casting it. There is still a chance someone else was already casting at the target and you sniped his heal with a fast heal, but if your heal were slower you would overheal instead of him and total overhealing would be the same.
This is quite irrelevant to the original topic that was 3.1 glyphs. When healing tanks reactive healing is not worth much, what matters is the frequency and amount you heal. Tidal Waved HWs is significantly better than LHW in this regard, and thus LHW is not very useful for healing the tanks that have Earth Shield.
I don't think shamans are threatened at all by the Ulduar changes. In fact, some of the boss fights seem to need shamans, as our other AoE counter-parts (druids/pallys) have been slightly changed. I was at the top of metres in Naxx/OS before 3.1 anyways, so I'm not too worried.
Just speaking briefly since I only had the opportunity to do 10-man and we were only able to do Flame Leviathan (which doesn't even take class mechanics into account) and Razorscale. Ignis's lack of buff removal and Deconstructor's trash mobbing us all at once kept us from really getting any further. So keep in mind, what I'm saying here is based just on Razorscale and some attempts on Ignis until he eventually one-shot our tank.
I don't think it's so much nerfs to mana regen as it is greatly increased incoming damage. (As a side note, Blessing of Wisdom and Mana Spring do stack now, but multiple Mana Springs do not.) Mana Tides are invaluable now and at least one improved mana spring is a unique, valuable buff. We ran 10-man last night with two Resto shamans and a holy priest. The other shaman was specced more similarly to the standard 3.0 spec, while I opted more for a crit-based Healing Way build. Resto shaman fits easily into the content that I've seen so far. WG and CoH aren't going to cut it to top people off after Ignis does his "throw everyone up in the air and deal 9-10k dmg" move (blanking on the name), everyone will be looking for the resto shamans to save them. Keeping Tidal Waves up will also be key on Razorscale, getting people healed up after a fireball before they get hit by another or get combo'd by the whirlwinding mobs.
Also, I'm not sure if it's the nerf to mana regen (which I don't think it is) or the fact that I was using more HW than CH and mostly phased out LHW, but I'm chewing through my mana much more quickly than I ever was in Malygos or Sarth+3D. That's part of the basis of why I said having Mana Tide becoming that much more important.
Also, I'm not sure if it's the nerf to mana regen (which I don't think it is) or the fact that I was using more HW than CH and mostly phased out LHW, but I'm chewing through my mana much more quickly than I ever was in Malygos or Sarth+3D. That's part of the basis of why I said having Mana Tide becoming that much more important.
On the contrary, I was using more Chain Heal than I did on Sarth 3D, and I was also blowing through mana at an insane rate because of it. If I restricted myself to Riptide/LHW/HW I was fine. This is with more or less full haste gear, appropriate elixirs, etc.
I found myself wishing pathetically for even more haste with those tornados on Magma Ragers, which would have exacerbated the issue even more. Maybe the Mana Tide Glyph will make it to the Glyph page yet.
Likewise, I roll somewhere in the range of 570 passive haste rating, along with two procs for 505 haste each (Egg and Embrace of the Spider). Looking back, I think my issues were partially due to the fact that I never saw the second resto shaman dip below 90% mana and I was running about 150-175% of his effective healing done. We were also having issues with people on Razorscale running every which direction and not sticking together nor sticking inside my cast range. I spent more time running in range of people needing heals than I did actually healing them. Chain would've been too slow and wouldn't have bounced more than maybe once, so I was predominantly using RT/HW. Again, these are really both factors (flaws?) of the playstyles of my own guildmates. Not really good measurements of how Shaman performs in an ideal situation, but maybe more relevant in terms of actual practice? :p
The magma ragers.... oh man. I think I died and blew more mana on those guys than anything else last night, just because I was laughing so damn hard watching people get juggled between two of them and pinned against walls by them.
(edit) Above posted while I was typing. Yikes.... definately gonna start manually unequipping my Angry Dread OH before switching Enh > Resto. :x
I just noticed an interesting bug with Glyph of Totem of Wrath.
Switching to my Elemental spec that has that glyph, dropping ToW and then switching back to to Restoration, I keep the ToW buff from the glyph. Normal healing in Resto is 2027 unbuffed, with the ToW buff it is 2111, which is exactly 84 more as would be expected.
(As a side note, Blessing of Wisdom and Mana Spring do stack now, but multiple Mana Springs do not.) Mana Tides are invaluable now and at least one improved mana spring is a unique, valuable buff.
This is not correct. Blessing of Wisdom and Mana Spring totem do not stack. You will see both buffs in your buff bar, but only the more powerful one will be in effect. For example, if you are at 336 mp5 without either, you could go to 427 with a non-improved Blessing of Wisdom (91 mp5) and then go to 445 mp5 when an improved mana spring goes down (109 mp5). But you will stay at 445 mp5 if you click off the Blessing of Wisdom.
If the person giving Blessing of Wisdom has improved blessing of wisdom (goes to 445 mp5) there is no effect from dropping Mana Spring (stays at 445).
Just tested this with 2 pallys in Dalaran to confirm, one without improved blessing of wisdom, and one with.
Was in Ulduar last Night and we cleared Flame Leviathan and Constructor (Ignis was raping us) - even on many of the wipe attempts I was pulling 22-25% of the healing in a 6-healer group and the same on the constructor clear.
I just noticed an interesting bug with Glyph of Totem of Wrath.
Switching to my Elemental spec that has that glyph, dropping ToW and then switching back to to Restoration, I keep the ToW buff from the glyph. Normal healing in Resto is 2027 unbuffed, with the ToW buff it is 2111, which is exactly 84 more as would be expected.
Yes, it appears Resto shaman can gain an extra 84 spellpower (30% of the totem's 280 spellpower) by using dual specs. Personally, I don't find it worth the effort but I have yet to try Ulduar on its hard modes (and that's usually when these tricks matter).
Mages have noticed a similar "bug" with their dual specs. If they spec into Arcane to get Focus Magic, they can switch to a FrostFire spec and the FM buff (+3% crit) remains on the lucky person on which it was cast.
This is not correct. Blessing of Wisdom and Mana Spring totem do not stack. You will see both buffs in your buff bar, but only the more powerful one will be in effect. For example, if you are at 336 mp5 without either, you could go to 427 with a non-improved Blessing of Wisdom (91 mp5) and then go to 445 mp5 when an improved mana spring goes down (109 mp5). But you will stay at 445 mp5 if you click off the Blessing of Wisdom.
If the person giving Blessing of Wisdom has improved blessing of wisdom (goes to 445 mp5) there is no effect from dropping Mana Spring (stays at 445).
Just tested this with 2 pallys in Dalaran to confirm, one without improved blessing of wisdom, and one with.
I just tried it as well. I apparently wasn't accurate enough.
Mana Spring + LESSER Blessing of Wisdom = Do not stack
Mana Spring + GREATER Blessing of Wisdom = Do stack
Just tested in Dalaran with a guildie resto shaman and my Prot paladin (unimproved BoW)
He removed all buffs: 284 mp5
Lesser BoW only: 375 mp5
Dropped Spring: 393 mp5 (Lesser BoW removed by spring)
Casted GBoW: 484 mp5 (Greater BoW and Mana Spring stacking)
Had the same effect on myself. Casting Lesser BoW while in range of the totem yielded no effect. The spell would cast (didn't give a "more powerful effect" error) but I didn't gain the buff. I could, however, cast Greater BoW and get the effect of both stacking.
Working as intended or a bug?
Last edited by AlphaJew : 04/16/09 at 4:36 PM.
Reason: Formatting and "working as intended?"
I just tried it as well. I apparently wasn't accurate enough.
Mana Spring + LESSER Blessing of Wisdom = Do not stack
Mana Spring + GREATER Blessing of Wisdom = Do stack
Just tested in Dalaran with a guildie resto shaman and my Prot paladin (unimproved BoW)
He removed all buffs: 284 mp5
Lesser BoW only: 375 mp5
Dropped Spring: 393 mp5 (Lesser BoW removed by spring)
Casted GBoW: 484 mp5 (Greater BoW and Mana Spring stacking)
Had the same effect on myself. Casting Lesser BoW while in range of the totem yielded no effect. The spell would cast (didn't give a "more powerful effect" error) but I didn't gain the buff. I could, however, cast Greater BoW and get the effect of both stacking.
Working as intended or a bug?
If this is indeed happening its a bug. Blue has stated over and over that the 2 will no longer stack and that the more powerfull spell will win out.
Greater BoW > Improved Mana Spring > Lesser BoW > Normal Mana Spring
That was my impression, however, its behavior has completely changed from what I saw on the PTR. On the PTR, a Lesser BoW and Mana Spring could both be on the same target. However, only the stronger of the two effects was actually applied. As it is on live, Mana Spring is overwriting lesser untalented and stacking with greater. I couldn't track down a holy pally with Imp. BoW, but I'll attempt to get that done when I get home from classes.
It's that overwriting behavior that's making me wonder if they changed their mind on it.
The Best in Slot list for resto shaman in the TTT is overdue for an update. I'm sure there are several omissions from the list below. Not every piece of gear in the mp5 category will have mp5. Sometimes the best item lacks mana regen. Once I get some feedback, I'll update the TTT. Thanks.
NOTE: The table has been edited since first being posted based on the subsequent suggestions in the thread and additional loot table discoveries.
Pandora's Plea is another good trinket choice. For pure regen, Spark of Hope is probably the best now. (I'll be passing on it to classes that can use the spirit, though.)
04/14/09, 6:34 AM
(but you can rape the healing meters like this 
, so it's cool if ppl aren't dying)
Maybe the Mana Tide Glyph will make it to the Glyph page yet.
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