 |
02/26/09, 12:50 AM
|
#31
|
|
Great Tiger
|
Originally Posted by Daidalos
Are you just guessing how the glyph works or did you test this in game? It might work like that but my conservative estimate would be it bumping it from 2500ish to 2900ish if it added to the other talent modifiers. You might be right since I haven't been able to get the gylph yet I just wanted to make sure before we start throwing around numbers.
|
My understanding is that Glyphs stack multiplicatively with talents, not additively. This is easy to test on live with the LHW glyph. Until the glyphs are actually available on the PTR (I didn't learn anything new when I did Northrend research, so they are either NYI or available some other way), we won't know for sure, but I have no reason to believe that the calculation is anything other than
[Base + .284 * spell power] * 1.35 * 1.2,
where .284 is the spellpower coefficient per orb, 1.35 is the talent modifier (5/5 Purifcation, 3/3 Improved Shields, 2/2 Improved Earth Shield) and 1.2 is the glyph modifier.
Either way, I agree that it is definitely superior to the riptide glyph, which is utter trash in virtually all situations.
|
|
|
|
|
02/26/09, 1:47 AM
|
#32
|
|
Don Flamenco
Draenei Shaman
Kil'Jaeden
|
I had said earlier in this thread that the Riptide glyph wasn't *complete* garbage, but on further reflection I've realized that it truly is crap.
Generally, healing glyphs do one of two things: improve HPS or HPM (which makes sense, since those are the two things healers worry about in their stats). Something like the LHW and CH glyphs fall into the former category, while something like the Flash Heal or Lifebloom glyphs fall into the latter category. The problem with the Riptide glyph is that it does neither of these because of how the spell gets used in practice. It's supposed to improve healing per mana by allowing the HoT to tick longer, but will never actually be able to give that benefit.
For single-target healing, I primarily use Riptide to proc Tidal Waves. For this usage, I'm almost always overwriting the HoT before it runs out with its current duration, so any extra duration on the HoT goes completely to waste. For raid healing, Riptide gets used as an oh crap button, and in this case the person who gets healed by it is almost always healed to full and then doesn't take any more damage before the HoT wears off with its current duration, so again any extra duration on the HoT goes to waste.
So what would actually make the glyph useful - reduced cooldown, improved crit chance, something like that?
|
|
|
|
|
02/26/09, 3:47 AM
|
#33
|
|
Glass Joe
|
Hello, I'm just curious about a couple things. Last night in nax25 i chain healed spam the whole thing, beat 2nd place by 900k and he was a full val, resto druid with all best in slot gear except 1 piece, bracers.
But putting that aside myover heals for the whole night where at 50.6%, Was just curious is this normal for chain heal spam, the current glyphs i am using at the moment are
Glyph of Chain heal
Glyph Of water mastery
Glyph of Mana tide
Glyph of water shield
Are these any good aswell for this healing?
Also would like to know is there anyone else who is having mana issues on fights, eg; Sarth(25man) 3 drakes.
Please any help would be greatful, thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
02/26/09, 3:52 AM
|
#34
|
|
Piston Honda
|
Originally Posted by BroodStalker
Also would like to know is there anyone else who is having mana issues on fights, eg; Sarth(25man) 3 drakes.
Please any help would be greatful, thanks.
|
I'd suspect the biggest factor here would be the number of replenishments in the raid, and your heal target. If you're tank healing vs. raid healing for example.
|
|
|
|
|
02/26/09, 8:18 AM
|
#35
|
|
Glass Joe
Draenei Shaman
Cenarion Circle
|
Originally Posted by BroodStalker
myover heals for the whole night where at 50.6%, Was just curious is this normal for chain heal spam
Are these any good aswell for this healing?
Also would like to know is there anyone else who is having mana issues on fights, eg; Sarth(25man) 3 drakes.
|
Im one of those old fashioned types who still don't want to believe in LHW. Im currently one of our top 4 healers in guild, normally sitting at #1 or 2 on the healing charts with Chain Heal spam. However I also have 10% less overhealing done than you, but that is because I am used to the slow cast time of Chain heal, and have adjusted my healing so that it is less of a problem.
Your glyphs are fine for a CH spam setup. As for Mana Issues, really I haven't seen a single mana issue yet besides the times where I end up dying to something random, and have to reincarnate and end up with little mana, and have to pop a mana pot, mana tide, and quickly recharge my totems/watershield. Of course I havent attempted Sarth+3 drakes yet, done Sarth+2 with 6 healers, although I never got to complete it due to learning the fight process... then having to leave in the middle of the raid for something much more entertaining than World of Warcraft.
|
|
|
|
|
02/26/09, 9:10 AM
|
#36
|
|
Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Death Knight
Wildhammer (EU)
|
Originally Posted by Philondra
* Ancestral Awakening is based off the total heal (effective + overheal), not only overheal as implied by the patch notes.
|
Ineffective healing (as implied by the patch notes) is effective healing + overhealing, not only overhealing, it's common statement, even used in damage meters mods. So there is no mistake in patch notes.
|
|
|
|
|
02/26/09, 11:15 AM
|
#37
|
|
Great Tiger
|
Originally Posted by Philondra
My understanding is that Glyphs stack multiplicatively with talents, not additively. This is easy to test on live with the LHW glyph. Until the glyphs are actually available on the PTR (I didn't learn anything new when I did Northrend research, so they are either NYI or available some other way), we won't know for sure, but I have no reason to believe that the calculation is anything other than
[Base + .284 * spell power] * 1.35 * 1.2,
where .284 is the spellpower coefficient per orb, 1.35 is the talent modifier (5/5 Purifcation, 3/3 Improved Shields, 2/2 Improved Earth Shield) and 1.2 is the glyph modifier.
Either way, I agree that it is definitely superior to the riptide glyph, which is utter trash in virtually all situations.
|
Good point I wasn't thinking of how lhw glyph worked. Assuming it does work the same way its going to be a good glyph for pve and awesome for pvp.
As far as a glyph of riptide goes I'd rather have 10% more to the initial heal component or some such perhaps instead of adding an extra tick to the hot give the main heal an additional hot tick amount of upfront healing. I wouldn't really be all that exited about additional crit unless it was like 10% or so since you really need alot of additional crit to really help it much. Reducing the cooldown by 1s would also be good
Last edited by Daidalos : 02/26/09 at 12:05 PM.
|
|
|
|
02/27/09, 4:33 AM
|
#38
|
|
Banned
Tauren Shaman
Twisting Nether (EU)
|
I believe the Earth Shield glyph will eventually be put in place for the Water Mastery Glyph when we are able to sustain mana without the need for the Glyph. Especially regarding PvP I believe the 3 contenders will be: Glyph of Hex, Glyph of Earth Shield, Glyph of Lesser Healing Wave.
I've read on the Oceanic PTR forum that Hex is no longer trinketable; is this a bug or is it intended? If it's intended it makes Shaman increasingly more deadly as a 10 second silence is very dangerous, this coupled with the glyph means the target can recieve damage without the effect being removed - assuming no Druids or Mages are present... I'd Hex the Shaman in Shaman/Hunter, Shaman/DK, Shaman/Warrior teams so that the other classes can be nuked, or the Shaman can be nuked while the other class stays peeled from his team mate.
Can someone confirm for me, I can't access the EU PTR at the moment, if Hex is not trinketable or if it was a bug and has been fixed?
|
|
|
|
|
02/27/09, 6:29 AM
|
#39
|
|
Glass Joe
Blood Elf Hunter
Wyrmrest Accord
|
Originally Posted by Daidalos
As far as a glyph of riptide goes I'd rather have 10% more to the initial heal component or some such perhaps instead of adding an extra tick to the hot give the main heal an additional hot tick amount of upfront healing. I wouldn't really be all that exited about additional crit unless it was like 10% or so since you really need alot of additional crit to really help it much. Reducing the cooldown by 1s would also be good
|
What I'd love to see on the Riptide glyph is a boost to the Chain Heal interaction, a mechanic that I think some people overlook way too much. Even if it's lost due to overhealing, it's particularly helpful on the first and second bounces, getting those people a bit more healing.
With the changes to AA and with the look we had at Hodir earlier tonight, I'm honestly thinking I'm gonna replace my LHW glyph with the new Earth Shield one. (Water Mastery and Chain Heal being my other two majors) The extra speed of LHW is nice, but HW gets the job done on the tank just fine, your speed's more consistent because you're not eating through TW charges as fast, LHW not scaling with haste in terms of HPS due to hitting the GCD cap, not playing the RNG-on-top-of-another-RNG game with Imp. WS with and now AA still getting the benefits of overheals...... HW is starting to look more attractive. I'm almost frightened that it's making me start to consider putting points into Healing Way.
At the same time though, all of this feels like it's falling in line with Blizz's statement that they want to push healers towards more thoughtful, intelligent healing rather than the spamfest we've become used to. We're going to have to put smart, big heals where and when they're needed.
Last edited by AlphaJew : 02/27/09 at 6:40 AM.
Reason: ugh.... I speel gewd.
|
|
|
|
|
02/27/09, 9:06 AM
|
#40
|
|
Soda Popinski
|
Originally Posted by Krim
Can someone confirm for me, I can't access the EU PTR at the moment, if Hex is not trinketable or if it was a bug and has been fixed?
|
Offtopic PVP:
I wouldn't think they would make Hex untrinketable without significantly reducing its duration. 10 seconds of disarm/silence is a long time. It would really stengthen shaman, though I'm not sure the ability would be very fair. I think Hex should be tweaked, but I think the appropriate tweaks are things like instant cast, removing control of character while hexed, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
02/27/09, 10:27 AM
|
#41
|
|
Great Tiger
|

Originally Posted by AlphaJew
What I'd love to see on the Riptide glyph is a boost to the Chain Heal interaction, a mechanic that I think some people overlook way too much. Even if it's lost due to overhealing, it's particularly helpful on the first and second bounces, getting those people a bit more healing.
With the changes to AA and with the look we had at Hodir earlier tonight, I'm honestly thinking I'm gonna replace my LHW glyph with the new Earth Shield one. (Water Mastery and Chain Heal being my other two majors) The extra speed of LHW is nice, but HW gets the job done on the tank just fine, your speed's more consistent because you're not eating through TW charges as fast, LHW not scaling with haste in terms of HPS due to hitting the GCD cap, not playing the RNG-on-top-of-another-RNG game with Imp. WS with and now AA still getting the benefits of overheals...... HW is starting to look more attractive. I'm almost frightened that it's making me start to consider putting points into Healing Way.
At the same time though, all of this feels like it's falling in line with Blizz's statement that they want to push healers towards more thoughtful, intelligent healing rather than the spamfest we've become used to. We're going to have to put smart, big heals where and when they're needed.
|
I was thinking of this after I posted as well. Something like the flameshock glyph for riptide. If you made it so CH didn't consume RT but you still gained the additional healing it would make it appealing for those fights where you can CH a tank or off tank. The changes to AA do make HW more appealing and I'll most likely use it a little more than I do now but I just don't feel Healing way is worth 3 points considering the fact that pallys can spam like crazy on a tank the entire fight and with beacon they have some amazing throughput. LHW isn't going to be hitting gcd cap unless you really have extreme amounts of haste or are lusted, obviously TW casts will be below cap but additional haste will lower the gcd so I don't think you can complain about scaling..
|
|
|
|
02/27/09, 11:07 AM
|
#42
|
|
Glass Joe
Blood Elf Hunter
Wyrmrest Accord
|
Yeah, for me, it's a combination of mechanics and guild composition. We just recruited another holy paladin, but it's a regular occurrence for us to only have one holy paladin in a 25-man, sometimes we have none. I often end up focusing on healing tanks.
With the haste thing (good catch, I worded it poorly), I could be wrong on my math, but this is at least how I understand it. Any haste from gear affects all three: LHW, HW, and your GCD. However, the Tidal Waves haste only affects LHW and HW, not the GCD. Any haste from TW that takes LHW/HW under your GCD is effectively lost in terms of HPM. It still has value in making your heals land faster and keeping people alive, but not looking at that right now. 
Using myself as an example, I have 528 (16.1%) haste. This lowers LHW and the GCD down to 1.29 sec and HW to 2.15 sec. With a TW proc, My LHW goes to .904 sec and HW to 1.51 sec..... but my GCD remains at 1.29. The haste from TW improves my response times with LHW but leaves my max HPS with it unaffected. My HW sees an improvement in both response time and HPS.
The Flame Shock style for Riptide glyph would be phenomenal. I could think of a lot of situations where that would see considerable amount of use.
|
|
|
|
|
02/27/09, 12:13 PM
|
#43
|
|
Great Tiger
|

Originally Posted by AlphaJew
Yeah, for me, it's a combination of mechanics and guild composition. We just recruited another holy paladin, but it's a regular occurrence for us to only have one holy paladin in a 25-man, sometimes we have none. I often end up focusing on healing tanks.
With the haste thing (good catch, I worded it poorly), I could be wrong on my math, but this is at least how I understand it. Any haste from gear affects all three: LHW, HW, and your GCD. However, the Tidal Waves haste only affects LHW and HW, not the GCD. Any haste from TW that takes LHW/HW under your GCD is effectively lost in terms of HPM. It still has value in making your heals land faster and keeping people alive, but not looking at that right now. 
Using myself as an example, I have 528 (16.1%) haste. This lowers LHW and the GCD down to 1.29 sec and HW to 2.15 sec. With a TW proc, My LHW goes to .904 sec and HW to 1.51 sec..... but my GCD remains at 1.29. The haste from TW improves my response times with LHW but leaves my max HPS with it unaffected. My HW sees an improvement in both response time and HPS.
The Flame Shock style for Riptide glyph would be phenomenal. I could think of a lot of situations where that would see considerable amount of use.
|
I don't consider TW "haste" which is why I worded it the way I did. We are saying the same thing just worded differently.
My raid always has at least 1 holy pally and sometimes up to 3 holy pallys so its far more often that I am chain healing the off tank and getting bounces to the melee. The more I think about this the more I like the idea of keeping RT up on the tank for better a CH plus the hot since in many fights (in 25 man) I've found that I"m getting back to spamming CH like I did in sunwell. Granted RT, ch, ch, ch, ch, ch isn't alot better, but the way it is now I frequently don't use riptide due to it removing the hot instantly. Managing RT so that I only put it on people I won't be CHing is mildly annoying so I like this idea.
Last edited by Daidalos : 02/27/09 at 12:25 PM.
|
|
|
|
02/27/09, 7:29 PM
|
#44
|
|
Von Kaiser
|
I generally only use Riptide as a means of maintaining Tidal Waves procs, or a means of getting some amount of healing in situations where I have to move, nothing more. That glyph isn't going to change that in the slightest, and as such, I have no reason to use it whatsoever.
The problem with the Flame Shock idea of using Riptide is that it's not like DPS. Flame Shock, you want to hit, let the duration tick down, then Lava Burst after it's done most of its damage. With Riptide, you have to be very effective at determining who's taking damage and when in order to get the most out of this strategy, and you have to have your other healers in on the gag, as it were. Chances are, you Riptide, let the HoT tick, and now suddenly your target is full by other healing. So now you're wasting half of the healing from Chain Heal (the initial hit) in order to get a 25% buff to the remainder of the bounces, which isn't efficient.
The Earth Shield glyph seems promising, but I have no clue why people would be giving up Water Mastery for it. The Chain Heal glyph is largely worthless as it is, that fourth bounce amounting to another random Riptide. Generally speaking, you're better off with having Earth Shield, Water Mastery, and Mana Tide if you're a Chain Heal spammer, perhaps dropping Mana Tide for LHW if you're on tanks, or HW if you mix up your heals a little more on raid healing.
As for Shamans and their place in the raid, the game is becoming massively homogenized. They don't particularly want any healer outshining any other healer on any given fight. As such, every healer is getting a lot of AOE healing buffs so as to make them more effective at raid healing, whereas before only Shamans were effective at it. But you have to look at healing not as a meter padding effort, but at what kind of healing your raid needs and when. The reason you see Druids topping meters all over the place is because they have a massive stream of healing that almost never overheals and rarely impacts the raid in a great fashion. They're still most effective as damage mitigation on tanks, they just get a meter padder in their AOE functionality. I see Priests becoming more of the utility healer that Shamans are now, and I can't necessarily disagree with that idea.
Healing is not DPS. Meters are effective for gauging DPS because there are very few situations which call for anything but maximum DPS throughput. Therefore, you want to see them topping meters. Healing doesn't work like that. As an oversimplified example, if the raid takes mass AOE damage, and one person is close to death, then your AOE heal might generate the most metered healing, but it is not the most effective heal in that situation. Shamans have a great toolset in these situations, and as such, I don't fear for our raid slots much.
|
|
|
|
|
02/27/09, 7:32 PM
|
#45
|
|
Don Flamenco
|
One of the best changes in Wrath has been freeing shaman from a narrowly defined healing role -- raid healing via spamming Chain Heal. We can now fill multiple healing rolls, including main tank healer depending on the group composition. I'm going todate the talent section of the Theorycrafting Think Tank to show some builds that have 0/3 Healing Way. Many shaman don't need to spend talent points here, especially those guilds overloaded with holy paladins. In my own guild, we have few holy paladins but several excellent holy priests (a class that at often rivals our own ability to AOE heal). As a result, the priests are often raid healing and I may be assigned to heal a single target, making 3/3 Healing Way a required talent.
|
|
|
|
|
Similar Threads
|
| Thread |
Thread Starter |
Forum |
Replies |
Last Post |
| Testing recruits |
Revenj |
Public Discussion |
151 |
01/24/06 2:11 PM |
|