[Resto] Best Practices: PvE Healing Discussion - Page 18

scrusi · 06/10/09, 5:50 AM

I find the argument that they try to balance spells through their mana cost quite compelling. If people have too much mana regeneration it doesn't matter anymore whether the priest and druid instants have a bad HPM ratio. Instant spells are generally more expensive than their cast-time counterparts. If they fix the mana issues I would suppose that CH would become competitive again.

The whole set bonus talk seems weak too me though. We already have a very good t8 4 piece bonus that effects chain heal and it's still not enough. I don't think even more powerful set bonuses are the way to go.

SomeIdiot · 06/10/09, 6:17 AM

Originally Posted by scrusi

The whole set bonus talk seems weak too me though. We already have a very good t8 4 piece bonus that effects chain heal and it's still not enough. I don't think even more powerful set bonuses are the way to go.

They are so scared of buffing CH because they don't want to bring back the Sunwell days, yet they (apparently) don't don't even look for a second at adding some synergy with another spell e.g. LHW. I believe it has been mentioned here before, but adding a stacking haste buff from LHW would take that concern away. If you just spam CH there is no change from how it is now (which is not overpowered by a long stretch), but with switching between LHW and CH gives a viable AoE heal which isn't spammable (maybe pair with a 15y jump range, as the current is nigh useless).

hvidgaard · 06/10/09, 7:17 AM

@stassart - I believe he just changed his name, this shaman is from the same guild and a very similar name The World of Warcraft Armory

@Ribs - he did acknowledge that it's lackluster against "other healers" by "other big heals", but that is because they have too much mana in the first place.

... and in fact the seemingly unlimited mana in some healers is what leads to Chain Heal getting stomped on by other big heals. This is a problem we plan on addressing.

ElektroFW · 06/10/09, 7:38 AM

Originally Posted by Sprout

Int flask>Trinkets>Food>Gear for Crit (RT/LHW only)>Gear for int (assuming 2 pieces have significantly different int values and you dont lose set bonuses)>mp5 flask>Gems>Gear for mp5>Enchants

As you can see gemming int is pretty low on that list. In all the easy mode fights and a few hard mode fights I have never gotten past the gear for crit.

When you use Int Flask you are trading 125 Spell Power for 65 Intellect. That is not exactly efficient. When you use food, you are trading 46 Spell Power for 16 MP5 (that is say 28 Intellect). On gems you trade 19 SP for 16 intellect, or 32 SP for 27 Intellect.
No matter how you look at it, the best trade off is on gems.

It doesn't make sense to use MP5 flask, since the intellect flasks should return you more mana.

Hard modes, except Hodir, are generally longer and more intensive. I wouldn't tune my gear for Razorscale, but for some of the hard modes.

Ribs · 06/10/09, 7:55 AM

Originally Posted by Scrusi

I find the argument that they try to balance spells through their mana cost quite compelling. If people have too much mana regeneration it doesn't matter anymore whether the priest and druid instants have a bad HPM ratio. Instant spells are generally more expensive than their cast-time counterparts. If they fix the mana issues I would suppose that CH would become competitive again.

Yes this is true, but this will effect gameplay quite a lot. Imagine working on Mimiron hard mode and having to see your mana regen drop all of a sudden come next patch. That will seriously set your chances for succes back. Blizzard has already said they've postponed any ideas on nerfing replenishment, because of data showing that Hard Modes do force people to go oom. If they nerf that, they will also have to nerf hard modes, which I think would be a great shame.

I agree with you on the t8 bonus. I mean, 4set bonus is probably the best Chain Heal bonus ever and it's still not good enough. If they implement even bigger changes via gear, it will make the gap between a non t9 shaman and a t9 shaman so incredibly big, it would be silly.

Originally Posted by Hvidgaard

he did acknowledge that it's lackluster against "other healers" by "other big heals", but that is because they have too much mana in the first place

Aye true. I suppose the whole mana issue just didnt make it stick inside my brain

Kaytikat · 06/10/09, 8:07 AM

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in all this talk of RT/LHW is how you cope with doing anything other than staring at grid and hitting your cast buttons, especially on fights that require you to move.

I tried RT/LHW on Hodir hard mode last night and it was horrendous just trying to cast every cooldown when you only have 1 sec to decide on your next target, move the mouse and click, all while trying to find fires and move from falling debris. I lost count of the number of times I got hit by debris and my HPS was pathetic compared to the other resto spamming CH. When I switched back to CH my HPS went back to being comparable with the holy priest, my damage taken went down and raid stability went up.

Maybe you all play in guilds full of holy priests and resto druids but we have no healing druids and just one holy priest. In that scenario CH holds up very well indeed and it's rare when a shaman doesn't have the most effective healing on a fight.

scrusi · 06/10/09, 9:01 AM

If you have the leeway to use Chain Heal to its full extent then it is very good. Priest and Druid healing is just better and faster. You definitely want AoE healers in most fights and if you don't have the priest/druid power needed then sure, CH shammies are a decent replacement. Hodir (hard or not) is a fight where Chain Heal can be very good or very bad depending on how your raid behaves. In the case of my guild it's rare that a (non-melee) CH ever hits more than one, let alone more than two targets. If you tend to bunch together on fires etc. then CH becomes better obviously.

As for RT-LHW healing in moving situations: I keep my grid close to the center of my screen, allowing me to see stuff that goes on around me as well as grid. I have also trained my visual reflexes such that I don't actually think about who to heal if I'm raid healing. See a movement in grid? RT if it's not on CD otherwise LHW. That way there's no need to stay fully focused on Grid - you can see changes in hp out of the corner of your eye.

ElektroFW · 06/10/09, 9:15 AM

Originally Posted by Kaytikat

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in all this talk of RT/LHW is how you cope with doing anything other than staring at grid and hitting your cast buttons, especially on fights that require you to move.

I tried RT/LHW on Hodir hard mode last night and it was horrendous just trying to cast every cooldown when you only have 1 sec to decide on your next target, move the mouse and click, all while trying to find fires and move from falling debris. I lost count of the number of times I got hit by debris and my HPS was pathetic compared to the other resto spamming CH. When I switched back to CH my HPS went back to being comparable with the holy priest, my damage taken went down and raid stability went up.

Maybe you all play in guilds full of holy priests and resto druids but we have no healing druids and just one holy priest. In that scenario CH holds up very well indeed and it's rare when a shaman doesn't have the most effective healing on a fight.

I see it the other way, on fights were you need to move chain heal is not so good. On Hodir it would work because of the haste buff.

The problem that is not answered at all in the Q&A is about the effective HPS. Shamans are not near the top on any of the fights in Ulduar, and for raid healing, that's what healers are measured by. Until that if fixed we can only work at main tank healing.
Hard modes often see healers dropping from raid, and then you will keep those who heal more. At raid healing, we don't. It's as simple of that, and Blizzard is ignoring the issue.
Nerf mana regen for healers is not going to work, and it could lead to a situation where "take shamans for BL" becomes "take shamans for mana tide". Not what I'm looking forward to...

As I see it now, the patch will give a lot of goodies, but not what is really needed.

KnThrak · 06/10/09, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by ElektroFW

The problem that is not answered at all in the Q&A is about the effective HPS. Shamans are not near the top on any of the fights in Ulduar, and for raid healing, that's what healers are measured by. Until that if fixed we can only work at main tank healing.

Only for specifically full-AE damage which is not followed by limited spikes.
In other words, "flat damage". Which seems to be a common factor in Ulduar, hence the focus on it in this tier of content.

However, this can be as much as problem of the content as of the classes.

eHPS is, ultimately, a silly measurement by which to compare healers because it was always clear that healing "cannot be measured that way". And in many perspectives, it really can't. It'd only be a tiny fragment of the whole deal. However Ulduar raiddamage is just focusing on this stat.

As such it could be a better solution to re-design the encounters, ofc from a pacticability POV it's "easier" to change the classes even if it can chain into problems further down the road or in lower content.

ElektroFW · 06/10/09, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by KnThrak

eHPS is, ultimately, a silly measurement by which to compare healers because it was always clear that healing "cannot be measured that way". And in many perspectives, it really can't. It'd only be a tiny fragment of the whole deal. However Ulduar raiddamage is just focusing on this stat.

When we talk about raid healing, I think effective HPS is the most important thing. It shows how fast and how much can one class heal.
What would different measurement be based on? What criteria can a shaman currently fit to be the best choice for raid healing?

About group healing (group taking heavy damage), we can be competitive, but this assignment barely exists. From all WotLK I can only think at Mimiron in phase 2.

PDXMarcos · 06/10/09, 12:03 PM

It's the age old SAT question: A shaman casting Chain Heal, a Druid casting Wild Growth, and a Priest casting a Serendipity Prayer of Healing (followed immediately by a Circle of Healing) all start healing the same target at the same time with a 10K health deficit. Which heal will land last and be mostly overheal? Chain Heal.

Montegomery · 06/10/09, 1:15 PM

This may sound odd, but the problem isn't necessarily Chain Heal. Rather, the problem is that the Shaman healing toolkit has insufficient resources to properly respond to common, everyday healing situations involving multiple targets. Chain Heal is part of that, but isn't the whole problem in and of itself.

Essentially, the issue is that when we encounter a situation to which Chain Heal isn't suited, we have few other options. When Circle of Healing or Wild Growth are unnecessary or pointless, abilities such as Prayer of Healing/Mending or well placed HoTs can complement or replace them. The only option a Shaman has is to throw direct heals (an option shared with all other healers). So while we could fix the problem by changing Chain Heal directly, a better solution might simply be to add a spell (or glyph/synergy) which complements it or functions explicitly in those situations where Chain Heal falls flat.

Thus I ask a simple question, if we had a tool (theoretically unique and unlike Circle of Healing and Wild Growth) which would provide us a solid AoE healing option when the raid was mostly spread out and taking sporadic damage, would we care as much that Chain Heal is situational?

Thuus · 06/10/09, 1:36 PM

Howdy, long time reader but 1st time poster....

I have played Resto for over 2 years now. Powned in BC on every raid in the healing meters, period.

WotLK has been a pleasant wake up call. New talents and spells are making me work to stay middle of the pack nowadays.

I am in a guild that is a cross between casual and semi hard core players. We get the job done, but never will get world 1st. We have only cleared thru Hodir, Thorim and Freya and have gotten to 4th phase in Mimiron. We only raid 3 nights a week.

If you armory me (Thuus -Echo Isles) you will see fairly standard build, but not likely to get any approval on my gearing seeing the general consensus of people moving to haste in a big way. I am also the raid leader so i build my gear more around MP5 and crit since i cannot mana managed 100% when i am busy calling out fights.

All this about shamans getting bumped from raids seems silly, if anything with buffs/glyphs to HW, LHW and RT we are now more versitile than before. If we came into WotLK as CH heal 1 trick ponies like we were in BC, then we would get bumped.

We generally run 2 druids, 2 priests, 1 or 2 pallies, and 1 or 2 shammy (7 healers per raid always). Our setup is dependent on who is available since we are not a militant raiding guild. As a raid leader, player gear and skill are very important of course, but i also look for a mix of all types of heal every raid night. Any time we have dramatically change the healer class make up, we feel it. Maybe its how we have gotten used to healing as a group more than it is specifically the classes mixed.

I personally think shammy healing by spell arsenal is the best its ever been. Gone are the days of mindless CH and getting 40%+ overall effective heal on recount. I have to think now. When range is an issue CH isn't my faceroll heal. I have to plan - who am I ES to throw LHW at (glyphed). Who will i throw multiple HW at to be most effective. RT every time i can for quickie heals - even that takes some thought since its best not to clip the Hot by recasting on same person if not needed. Gone are the days that LW and HW are so mana inefficient that they simply couldn't be used.

Different fights/phases, different healing. What is wrong with that -- not falling asleep casting CH all the time. To actually think while healing as a shammy is new and even took some to get used to. I was frustrated when WotLK 1st came out and some people who new to shammy resto healing dominated me in healing. They weren't pre-programmed like i was from BC. They were using all the spells while i wasn't adapting to the new dynamics. I now enjoy looking at fights now and planning types of heals most effective in different phases or situations. I like being able to do more different types of healing than we could in BC.

I worry Blizz may go to far and make every healer class too equal in all types of healing. It seems to be the direction they are going with all the QQ. While healing was boring in BC, shammies were silent as OP as we were. Now we are given a big toolbox to play with and when we are not #1 by the huge margin we used to be, people freak out. I enjoy the competitiveness now. Skill of healing at the right time and at the right target still matters alot. I have seen healing meters with unbelievable hps but it was a wipe. The actual boss kill hps #s end up looking so different as we learn who and what to heal and with what heal that is most appropriate.

It's the age old SAT question: A shaman casting Chain Heal, a Druid casting Wild Growth, and a Priest casting a Serendipity Prayer of Healing (followed immediately by a Circle of Healing) all start healing the same target at the same time with a 10K health deficit. Which heal will land last and be mostly overheal? Chain Heal.

solution - RT that person and cast CH elsewhere if you know the fight well enough to predictively heal over reactively healing. We are not BC robots - CH is not supposed be our only spell

Info · 06/10/09, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

This may sound odd, but the problem isn't necessarily Chain Heal. Rather, the problem is that the Shaman healing toolkit has insufficient resources to properly respond to common, everyday healing situations involving multiple targets. Chain Heal is part of that, but isn't the whole problem in and of itself.

Essentially, the issue is that when we encounter a situation to which Chain Heal isn't suited, we have few other options. When Circle of Healing or Wild Growth are unnecessary or pointless, abilities such as Prayer of Healing/Mending or well placed HoTs can complement or replace them. The only option a Shaman has is to throw direct heals (an option shared with all other healers). So while we could fix the problem by changing Chain Heal directly, a better solution might simply be to add a spell (or glyph/synergy) which complements it or functions explicitly in those situations where Chain Heal falls flat.

Thus I ask a simple question, if we had a tool (theoretically unique and unlike Circle of Healing and Wild Growth) which would provide us a solid AoE healing option when the raid was mostly spread out and taking sporadic damage, would we care as much that Chain Heal is situational?

This is a good point.
Ghostcrawler has tried to explain that in some situations Chain Heal is great. It's especially good in situations when it can be spammed to counteract predictable and steady AoE.

But in burst AoE situations, it falls flat.
This is the part I think we're seeing in competition with Druids and Priests.
They have multiple tools to do many things, we have a very narrow toolbox.
I believe someone on the WoW forums actually made a comparison and shaman have fewer healing tools that Paladins when you disregard Totems/Blessings.

SEE: Skyhoof's post below.

While Judgements are not truly healing spells, they are effective and supplement the basic healing spells nicely.
ManaSpringTotem is not a counterpart to Judgement of Wisdom because it conflicts with the Blessing. There is no blessing that conflicts with HealingStream.

But the point is that, compared to druids and priests, out toolbox is a bit smaller for both shaman and paladins. This might be part of what is hurting both classes in many cases.
Priests get a phenomenal amount of spells from talents, all along with talents that increase the effectiveness of both their base and talented spells.
Druids don't get very many talented spells, but they have a couple more base spells that all stack and work together.

This is a discussion of shaman best practices:
Our best practice has always been that we have to squeeze every ounce of effectiveness from our spells because we don't have anything else to cover our bases with. If a lesser healing wave doesn't heal enough, we have to try another- we don't have an instant heal or a HoT that might fill the gap, we have to throw in another 4-7k Lesser Healing Wave.
We just recently got Riptide, which has the potential to be an amazing spell... but it's mana cost and initial healing amount is prohibitive-- it's a haste trinket to proc Tidal Waves most often. You will not always have Riptide to instantly heal someone.

This is part of the reason LHW spam is becoming a stronger style of shaman healing- with Tidal Wave, LHW is quick and allows for rapid healing on low targets. We'll let the druids and priests top them off.

Vuldunobetra · 06/10/09, 2:35 PM

? ? ? _____________|_ Judgement of Wisdom

Mana Tide Totem

Info · 06/10/09, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by Vuldunobetra

? ? ? _____________|_ Judgement of Wisdom

Mana Tide Totem

Mana Tide Totem is an aoe mana restore, true. But it's a lot more important as a SELF mana restore... much like Innervate/Shadowfiend/Divine Plea.

I put it in the table, just so it won't be argued, but in the end- most classes don't NEED our Tide, they have their own tools to deal with it. It's also party-only, so it takes pre-planning instead of a "emergency" restore, like a priest's Hymn.

Judgement of Wisdom restores mana to the raid if you hit the target, is not a primary mana restore for the paladin himself, much like a priest's hymn isn't necessarily a primary regen for themselves, but can't be "tricked" into restoring more to the priest first.

• Jessamy · 06/10/09, 4:07 PM

Originally Posted by Info

I put it in the table, just so it won't be argued, but in the end- most classes don't NEED our Tide, they have their own tools to deal with it.

Saying most classes don't need Tide is shortsighted. Sure a thoughtful dps or healer player can come up with a rotation that makes effective use of the mana they have. But do you use that standard spell priority on Vaelastrasz? More mana will make a difference. If your fellow healers don't need it, give it to a dps caster. If they truly don't need it, put yourself in a party with a rogue or hunter pet to share your Heroic Presence, or with another resto shaman to share their Tide. Yes Tide requires planning to use effectively, but you should be paying attention to party composition anyway.

Skyhoof · 06/10/09, 5:45 PM

Prettier version of the above table with links to the actual spells. Also added NS and Lay on Hands, because a huge instant heal is the only healing ability priests lack.

Shaman	Paladins	Priests	Druids
Earth Shield	Sacred Shield	Power Word: Shield	Lifebloom/Living Seed
Riptide	Holy Shock	Renew	Rejvenation
Lesser Healing Wave	Flash of Light	Flash Heal	Nourish
Healing Wave	Holy Light	Greater Heal	Healing Touch
Chain Heal	Beacon of Light	Prayer of Healing	Wild Growth (talented)
Healing Stream Totem	Judgement of Light	Prayer of Mending	Tranquility (cooldown)
		Circle of Healing
		Holy Nova
Mana Tide	Judgement of Wisdom /Divine Plea	Hymn of Hope	Innervate but no AOE mana restore
Nature's Swiftness	Lay on Hands (talented)	---	Nature's Swiftness
		Penance	Regrowth
		Lightwell (Holy)
		Desperate Prayer (Holy)
		Divine Hymn (cooldown)

Info · 06/10/09, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Jessamy

Saying most classes don't need Tide is shortsighted. Sure a thoughtful dps or healer player can come up with a rotation that makes effective use of the mana they have. But do you use that standard spell priority on Vaelastrasz? More mana will make a difference. If your fellow healers don't need it, give it to a dps caster. If they truly don't need it, put yourself in a party with a rogue or hunter pet to share your Heroic Presence, or with another resto shaman to share their Tide. Yes Tide requires planning to use effectively, but you should be paying attention to party composition anyway.

Heroic Presence is raid-wide now and does not stack with other Draenei.

I have yet run into anyone that plans their raid around using Mana Tide specifically for other casters besides the occasional boomkin or multiple resto shaman...
I've been put into caster dps groups and healer groups, with the consideration that Mana Tide will affect them, but not with that as the primary goal.

Party composition is fairly bygone, you're quoting Vaelastrasz when I'm fighting Mimiron and Freya.

I don't know the last time you played, or if you're using comments from Vanilla WoW as a joke, but the raid environment is very different.
I see you've been through the content. Why are you quoting fights that are no longer relevant?
You should be saying that the extra mana during Mimiron P2 is useful during the heavy-spam healing...
To which I'd reply: "the other healers should not be gearing and gemming to rely on the extra regen brought by a Resto shaman. It is somewhat naive to have part of your effective regen relying solely on another single player being at the raid."

Maybe I'm wrong and should be basing my intellect around having the mage Arcane Brilliance in raids at all times? It's a given, sure- the content is based around it.
Has content been balanced around all healers and caster dps REQUIRING Mana Tide? No. Every class is capable of self-regenning efficiently and effectively enough to never NEED Mana Tide.

Mana Tide is a consideration for party mana regen for other healers or caster dps, but it's very rare that you hear, "oh, we gotta put the resto shaman in with 4 other mana users" --
From my experience, Mana Tide affecting the party has often been a very secondary concern when a raid leader is composing a party.
I've gotten placed with tanks for cleansing totem, and that was a very specific and concious decision by the raid leader- "Hey, put him in with the tanks to put down cleansing totem." There was no "but they'll lose Mana Tide!" remark from anyone else. The other healers have their own regen and Mana Tide is a little bit of gravy on top of the amazing biscuits they already have.
I've never had a raid leader say, "We have to keep that resto shaman in with the other healers to drop Mana Tide, otherwise the other healers will go oom!" -it's always been more like, "well, put the resto shaman in with the other healers so they'll get mana tide too..."
>>> It's never been something that was a dire need. It's always been a nice little extra to make us feel useful.
>>>I've been specifically used to drop cleansing totem (party-only still), and relegated to healer/caster groups if not needed for cleansing.

Yes, that is to say, Mana Tide is a good group mana regen tool that no other class really has (Judgement of Wisdom requires you to stop healing and target boss) besides maybe the long cooldown of a priest (Hymn)...
But it's never been something that a raid is completely based around in WotLK-- with replenishment and self-regen tools, the other healers operate just fine.

I admit that Mana Tide should be included as "aoe mana regen" but in this statement, should it be a separate ability like a priest Hymn or should it be the only self-regen cooldown a shaman has for mana?
Shouldn't Mana Tide be the 'Hymn' that we blow when the group really needs it, and have another cooldown like Innervate or Divine Plea that is for us only?
Is it too much to ask to have a mana-fiend AND an "aoe" mana regen cooldown?

Sprout · 06/10/09, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by ElektroFW

When you use Int Flask you are trading 125 Spell Power for 65 Intellect. That is not exactly efficient. When you use food, you are trading 46 Spell Power for 16 MP5 (that is say 28 Intellect). On gems you trade 19 SP for 16 intellect, or 32 SP for 27 Intellect.
No matter how you look at it, the best trade off is on gems.

It doesn't make sense to use MP5 flask, since the intellect flasks should return you more mana.

Hard modes, except Hodir, are generally longer and more intensive. I wouldn't tune my gear for Razorscale, but for some of the hard modes.

Sass- Yes, I renamed my toon a couple of months ago, sorry for the confusion. It didnt even cross my mind to change the toon name here. It should be up to date now.

electro-

I agree that on a purely efficiency basis gems are by far the most useful. However due to cost it is virtually impossible to regem each fight. I suppose you could get a duplicate set of gear and gem differently in each but that also has a cost (mainly to your raid). thats the point I was making to Hvidgard, you need to balance flexibility with efficiency. Try swapping food/flask/trinket, etc then if all of those fail go for gems. think of it this way. You could regem int instead of using a pot for mana but why would you?

The advantage of using flasks/food and trinkets is that it can be changed on a pull by pull basis. I can swap and play with them until I get the mana regen I need. And then go to the next fight and use a completely different combination

That having been said perhaps the trinkets are a better option (SotD is worth 80+ mp5 and it replaces the forethought Talisman @ 111 SP for me for instance) in the swap priority. Honestly, although we have only done a few hard mode in 25, I have yet to have mana issues unless I am screwing up on refreshing WS. When we start getting a few down and get to IC/Freya and Mimi that may change my opinion of course

Kioku · 06/10/09, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by Kaytikat

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in all this talk of RT/LHW is how you cope with doing anything other than staring at grid and hitting your cast buttons, especially on fights that require you to move.

I tried RT/LHW on Hodir hard mode last night and it was horrendous just trying to cast every cooldown when you only have 1 sec to decide on your next target, move the mouse and click, all while trying to find fires and move from falling debris. I lost count of the number of times I got hit by debris and my HPS was pathetic compared to the other resto spamming CH. When I switched back to CH my HPS went back to being comparable with the holy priest, my damage taken went down and raid stability went up.

Maybe you all play in guilds full of holy priests and resto druids but we have no healing druids and just one holy priest. In that scenario CH holds up very well indeed and it's rare when a shaman doesn't have the most effective healing on a fight.

Just a little tip use to check if I will be casting Riptide or LHW. When I am nearly done casting, and the server is ready to accept another spell to queue up, I quickly Shift+Left click then Left Click. The way I am set up, it will cast Riptide if not on CD, LHW if Riptide is on CD. I know for a fact Hodir is a fight I struggle on with LHW/Riptide, but I haven't had good luck using chain heal on anything but melee. I tend to use Chain Heal ~15% of my overall casts and ~20% of my overall healing. As far as being able to use this healing style as well as avoid the mechanics of the fight, that is simply acquired. As mentioned before, keeping grid close to your toon, and training your visual reflexes to check yourself between casts is most important.

Despite not having a 10k heal on a 6 second CD, or being able to pre-HOT the raid, proper use of our entire healing toolbox can yield impressive numbers. Where we fall short is when placed up against a good resto druid or holy priest. But since even when our raid is largely lacking those classes, and depending on resto shaman, we can pull off hard modes. I would argue that Druid and Priests are the problem, and not shaman. But I will stop just short of asking for a nerf on them, because I know I hate it when it happens to me. I would much rather they bring us up to Priest/Druid HPS, and tune the next tier up to compensate. (Holy pally is a separate issue that I feel I cannot make an educated comment on as I have never played one at endgame)

To comment on raid comp directly, our raid normally has 2 holy priests, 2 resto druids, 1 resto shaman, 1 pally. Last night we had 1 resto druid, and 1 holy priest, 1 disc priest, 3 resto shaman. This was very unusual for us. I am trying to track down somebody that did combat log recording so I can link to WMO, but the breakdown went something like this on most boss fights:

R Shaman (Me LHW/RIP weaving CH)

R Druid

H Priest

Shaman (LHW/RIP)

Shaman (80% CH)

Disc Priest

(Top 3 being within 1-2% of each other)

The only fight that didn't follow this layout was IC (Choose you Runemaster) in which the R Druid and Priest beat me by a couple percent a piece. But I was unable to cast CH for most of that fight due to the fact that Steelbreakers AOE is the only damage that can be chain healed effectively, and he died first. When he dies first rejuv is better suited for keeping melee up. I expect better results when we do hard mode due to the ticks being large enough to justify the long cast.

To reinforce my point after blathering on, I think we are most effective when using all our spells (other then HW of course). The issue currently is the learning curve is much larger for R Shaman then for H Priest, R Druid just due to spell limitations.

berdan · 06/10/09, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by Info

Heroic Presence is raid-wide now and does not stack with other Draenei.

Heroic Presence is only group wide, not raid-wide. Just tested this on live realms. You are however correct about it not stacking.

Phatha · 06/11/09, 2:58 AM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

Thus I ask a simple question, if we had a tool (theoretically unique and unlike Circle of Healing and Wild Growth) which would provide us a solid AoE healing option when the raid was mostly spread out and taking sporadic damage, would we care as much that Chain Heal is situational?

If we had more tools at our disposal (like this theoretical aoe heal), then maybe CH wouldn't feel so bad. It would still be very useful on fights where everyone is grouped up, even if it is slow, while the new spell would help us fill the niche that only priests and druids currently fill. I feel like pallies are in a similar situation with regard to this.

On the subject of mana tide:
I've always felt that it was a little weak as a personal buff. Sure as a party mana boost, it's great, but for the shaman (the healer who most likely needs the mana most) it has always felt weak. I would love to have a glyph similar to innervate where it provides 2x as much to the shaman as it does to other party members, or something to that effect. Now it's helpful to the raid and really really nice for the shaman.

KnThrak · 06/11/09, 5:09 AM

Since the Hodir Hard Mode is only a timer race, I assume there's no special AE damage I haven't seen yet?

I heal Hodir (but not done hard mode!) entirely with Healing Wave with the very infrequent Chain Heal - mostly with Nature's Swiftness.
The key is that with a proper target-assignment and the assigned people sticking to range from their healer I know how much healing will be necessary, and it's nearly always enough for a HW. The upside is that I heal myself in the process (Glyph) so effectively I never have to heal myself, which is one more person covered.

During Frozen Blows I instead switch onto the MT while the Disc Priest who was on the MT switches off him and raidheals. HW spam-output in a Starlight is so much healing that usually my healing alone suffices (unless the tank gets a few bad non-resists), and due to Glyph I again cover the healing necessary on myself, too.

Does LHW have a direct advantage to HW here I am not seeing? I can safely assume that no one crossheals my assigned targets, hence me choosing HW.

Kaytikat · 06/11/09, 5:11 AM