As has been mentioned, the CH buffs really don't do anything about it in relation to WG and CoH, although the 2 yard increase might be better than it appears.
Given our new supposed role as tank healers, they should consider making the first jump 20ish yards and subsequent ones 10 yards. That would make the chance of two jumps very likely, and you would be able to bounce from MT to melee, utilizing the size of the heal on the first target. And I really wouldn't mind giving up WS procs from CH for having smaller chance of seeing those no-jump CH's.
A question for Sixthy or anyone else who does lots of RT/LHW. What do you make of the Paladin changes? Obviously they will be healing the raid 95% of the time, and healing the tank via Beacon. Do they take over our role as the raid spot healer? Or is there room for multiple raid healers using direct heals?
A question for Sixthy or anyone else who does lots of RT/LHW. What do you make of the Paladin changes? Obviously they will be healing the raid 95% of the time, and healing the tank via Beacon. Do they take over our role as the raid spot healer? Or is there room for multiple raid healers using direct heals?
The nerf to PoH is quite noticable, but for the most part the Pally changes are perplexing. If Pallies are spot healing we will most likely be pushed into a MT healing role. They will be spot healing the raid through FoL because they can't sustain pure HL spam as of 3.2 (if Illumination remains as it is). I'd argue we'd be able to spot heal with RT but I'd prefer the HoT always being active on the MT.
In a situation such as this, where you will be constantly pumping out RTs with LHW/HWs how useful are the HW/Riptide Glyphs compared with CH? You'll be using Glyph of Earth Shield and Glyph of Lesser Healing Wave; what would you use for the third? I personally would use the RT glyph if pressed though the HW glyph shines during raid damage highs: you heal the MT and yourself, fractionally.
Something that made me giggle though, the Druids are awfully quiet on the US and EU forums.
On Paladin spell mix, they will be able to replace every 4th HL with FoL and retain the same mana regen/usage as before. So with a 75% HL / 25% FoL mix, they will still push a lot of heals to the MT.
A question for Sixthy or anyone else who does lots of RT/LHW. What do you make of the Paladin changes? Obviously they will be healing the raid 95% of the time, and healing the tank via Beacon. Do they take over our role as the raid spot healer? Or is there room for multiple raid healers using direct heals?
I'm not really going to jump the gun on anything until I see something closer to a final 3.2 healing setup with all of the changes in tact. This is just the first round; I'm sure much will change. If everything was to go live 'as is' today, then I'd see Paladins as keeping a steady flow of healing coming to the tank via beacon while spotting the raid with a shaman full time on the MT to ensure AH uptime / direct healing while also bouncing melee chains (possibly). I've been running ES / LHW / CH as my glyph setup lately and would probably continue that trend if everything stays the same.
I have a feeling we'll have more changes before this is all said and done, though.
To clarify on the glyph thing, I still run ES / RT / LHW if I'm going to purely be on raid, but lately I've been bouncing chains off my tanks on a good number of fights just for extra melee healing. so I've been rolling with the CH glyph. RT is probably superior if you're going to be on raid snipe duty.
edit: I ran fraps for a couple recent kills since I hadn't done it in a while. I think the last thing I frapsed was Sarth 3 drake on 10 man, so wanted to make a few newer videos. I don't really edit them or add anything fancy. Here are the last two kills that are worthy of any healing notice:
Can turn the volume down if you don't like the music. I make my share of mistakes but for the most part these videos sort of show off my particular healing style. I guess I could frapse a Freya 3 kill as well as that's the fight that I really use the RT / LHW method the most.
The nerf to PoH is quite noticable, but for the most part the Pally changes are perplexing. If Pallies are spot healing we will most likely be pushed into a MT healing role. They will be spot healing the raid through FoL because they can't sustain pure HL spam as of 3.2 (if Illumination remains as it is). I'd argue we'd be able to spot heal with RT but I'd prefer the HoT always being active on the MT.
In a situation such as this, where you will be constantly pumping out RTs with LHW/HWs how useful are the HW/Riptide Glyphs compared with CH? You'll be using Glyph of Earth Shield and Glyph of Lesser Healing Wave; what would you use for the third? I personally would use the RT glyph if pressed though the HW glyph shines during raid damage highs: you heal the MT and yourself, fractionally.
You currently have the 2-piece T8 which means that with [Glyph of Riptide], you can have the riptide hot ticking on upto 4 people at any one time. Even after you lose your 2-Piece in the next tier of content, you will still be able to keep the hot ticking on the tank while spot healing with Riptide as long as you refresh the tank every 3rd Riptide.
While working on steelbreaker last night I focused on raid heals and the steelbreaker tank for the duration of the fight. The groove that I settled into was a RT/HW/LHW/CH. I can see this being a similar style for 3.2 as well. LHW if the tank hasn't taken a big hit, HW if the tank has taken a big hit (Fusion Punch in my case) and chain heal the raid as necessary.
I'm still not sold on Healing Wave as our go-to tank heal...
I think we'll be much more efficient with LHW rotations and a hasted HW as necessary.
We don't have sustainability to spam HW non-stop to counteract the high-level of boss damage, so we'll need a second healer either way most cases.
Well, currently the paladin is responsible for the big heals, but they are likely to go with spot raid healing and beacon on tank, so it will be on the shaman to do it.
The most important criteria in choosing a spell is the casting time, and 25% crit chance LHW is just a placeholder for mana issues. If you can, you will want to cast hasted HW, for more healing.
I'm still not sold on Healing Wave as our go-to tank heal...
I think we'll be much more efficient with LHW rotations and a hasted HW as necessary.
We don't have sustainability to spam HW non-stop to counteract the high-level of boss damage, so we'll need a second healer either way most cases.
Well, that's already the case. I don't think there are many guilds in which the MT1 is only healed by one person. There are always 2 healers assigned to him (sometimes 3 for bosses who hit for insanes amounts of damage). I'm not fond of becoming a tank healer, I'd prefer to stay a raid healer helping out on the tank if needed at some points of the combat. But if you want to become one that won't be a problem : the pallies will always leave their beacon of light on the tank(s) and will help you to keep him alive while they heal the raid.
That's a fact : you can't spam HW for a 5 minutes fight like you would do with LHW, if you want to only use HW you'll have to cancel your cast when it won't be interesting to release it due to the tank having taken too few damage. Doing so would be a very tiring way of playing for 3 hours a day. You'll prolly go for a use of LHW/HW : your tank is full life or nearly ? Cast a LHW to prevent the incoming damage. Your tank has lost more than 10K hp ? Time to cast a HW under the TW's effect.
Another thing is that with 3.2 LHW will be able to make totally insane heals. Someone has posted a screen from the PTR, he first cast a CH to proc our new totem that gives a 260 SP bonus for 15 seconds when you cast a CH, then cast riptide for the bonus to LHW healing output (and critical rate if you didn't used the CH) and then you got a nice 13K LHW without having an ES on your target. Meaning 15-16K heal with ES and LHW glyph I guess. That seems like to be pretty nice and for a low mana cost.
I haven't seen anything in the patch notes, which increases the size of LHW hits/crits. Are you sure it didn't have some other circumstance going on, like casting on a warlock or similar? Another thing is that CH gives the tidal waves effect just like Riptide, so why cast Riptide after CH? Mind posting the screenshot you mention?
I haven't seen anything in the patch notes, which increases the size of LHW hits/crits. Are you sure it didn't have some other circumstance going on, like casting on a warlock or similar? Another thing is that CH gives the tidal waves effect just like Riptide, so why cast Riptide after CH? Mind posting the screenshot you mention?
My bad for the Riptide, I though the +10% SP bonus to the LHW was linked to the Riptide, but it's another effect of TW. So Riptide is only interesting if you already have the new totem's buff on you and you got no reason to cast a CH, then you'll go for a Riptide to proc the TW effect as you always do.
The screen was from Elix on Ensidia's forum, but he removed his topic. Here you got the screen itself : LHW efficiency. As you can see he casted it on himself and he is using Water Shield, not ES. He is prolly self buffed, not raid buffed. And he is wearing the full T9 set, but rest of the equipment is coming from Naxx25 and some Ulduar. So you an expect for much higher values than that once you'll get access to some 3.2 equipment (of course is nothing is changed until it come to live servers).
I guess the difference came from the insane stats on the T9 set. Unless they increased our base spell values.
I dunno why Elix removed his topic, and I messed up with my registration on Ensidia's forum so I can't pm him to ask him. So if you see that topic Elix, please tell me if I shouldn't have posted this pic for a reason or another.
As you can see he casted it on himself and he is using Water Shield, not ES. He is prolly self buffed, not raid buffed. And he is wearing the full T9 set, but rest of the equipment is coming from Naxx25 and some Ulduar. So you an expect for much higher values than that once you'll get access to some 3.2 equipment (of course is nothing is changed until it come to live servers).
I guess the difference came from the insane stats on the T9 set. Unless they increased our base spell values.
There is no reason to assume that he a) has cast a LHW or b) has cast it on himself. Without the corresponding lines in the combatlog, the green numbers could stand for virtually every heal on a target to your liking. To me, it looks like an ordinary non-healing-way HW crit with mediocre gear.
Without an immense buff to LHW (which we know so far to be lacking) or an immense upgrade in T9-stats (which is highly unlikely), there is no explanation for these LHW-numbers.
Why didn't he include the combat log? That would have been a more reliable source than said screenshot. No offense meant.
Last edited by exschwizer : 06/28/09 at 8:27 AM.
Reason: Typo
Riptide Bug: The bug prevents the HoT portion of Riptide from being overwritten by a new Riptide if the new Riptide was cast with less spellpower. For example, after a trinket has procced, you cast Riptide on the tank. The buff from the trinket fades and you go to refresh Riptide before it expires. Riptide will do the initial healing but it fails to overwrite the previous HoT due to the lower spell power you now have.
I had a lengthy discussion with a GM about this tonight. This is intended behaviour right now as it is considered a buff. The GM did however agree that it makes Riptide usage in combination with [Eye of the Broodmother] like items painful. The outcome of the discussion was that I should post on the suggestions forum about making HoTs able to overwrite themselves when my spellpower has decreased.
After searching through the official patch notes, I didn't find any evidence that the Immolate behavior was fixed. I also didn't find any confirmation of change with "immolate riptide" or other search strings here on EJ. Assuming it was an undocumented change, how was Immolate fixed?
After searching through the official patch notes, I didn't find any evidence that the Immolate behavior was fixed. I also didn't find any confirmation of change with "immolate riptide" or other search strings here on EJ. Assuming it was an undocumented change, how was Immolate fixed?
Its been fixed, i just spent 10 minutes refreshing immolate with/without fel armor, and with/without trinket/glyph procs.
Sorry if this seems off topic but using duel spec you are able to get the effect from Totem of Wrath Glyph while being resto. If as elemental you place Totem of Wrath and have the glyph and then go back to resto you will still have the buff which is extra spell power.
I've been looking at doing this before boss pulls, switch to ele- throw totem, switch back and then eat the feast that was dropped. I'll be full mana when we're ready to actually pull.
This only time this might be detrimental is in speed runs.
You cast LHW that you glyphed for 127 time, it is 30.4% of your heals.
You cast healing wave 2 time it is .7% of your heals, it not glyphed.
Let's do some simple math. 2 goes into 127 63.5 times. .7 times 63.5% is 44.45%
Adding the healing wave glyph helps me in so many fights that have raid wide damage..but that is not the point.
Now let me ask you this. Is over healing a bad thing?If so why? Is the minor mana you gain from use lesser healing wave worth the chance of under healing a target and the lack of self heals?Note that LHW glyph is really only helpful on tanks, healing wave glyph is helpful on any target.
In 3.2 the man gained form LHW will be more, but it will be slower. The size of healing wave will be bigger. Note on the simple data you put in that pie chart, your LWH crits at best for about as much HW normally hits.From what I have seen and played out with the way speed, and haste works, the cast time of healing wave is rarely an issue that LHW can fix.
So please tell me what does LWH do better than healing wave?
You cast LHW that you glyphed for 127 time, it is 30.4% of your heals.
You cast healing wave 2 time it is .7% of your heals, it not glyphed.
Let's do some simple math. 2 goes into 127 63.5 times. .7 times 63.5% is 44.45%
Adding the healing wave glyph helps me in so many fights that have raid wide damage..but that is not the point.
Now let me ask you this. Is over healing a bad thing?If so why? Is the minor mana you gain from use lesser healing wave worth the chance of under healing a target and the lack of self heals?Note that LHW glyph is really only helpful on tanks, healing wave glyph is helpful on any target.
In 3.2 the man gained form LHW will be more, but it will be slower. The size of healing wave will be bigger. Note on the simple data you put in that pie chart, your LWH crits at best for about as much HW normally hits.From what I have seen and played out with the way speed, and haste works, the cast time of healing wave is rarely an issue that LHW can fix.
So please tell me what does LWH do better than healing wave?
The issue here is really how much Healing Waves heals for, and in how much time. Generally with a full group of healers, your targets will be closed to being topped off by the time you get a HW off, and a LHW would be more effective thanks to its shorter cast time. In a situation where the whole raid is taking a lot of heavy damage (such as XT's tantrums) CH becomes more effective since it will have a high chance of bouncing.
Overhealing used to be a terrible thing, but with proactive healing you should expect a large amount of your heals to overheal. Currently with mana-regen in its current state, I rarely have issues going OOM on any fights, if you're experiencing that, you might want to gem Int rather than SP, or whatever else you might be gemming for. While the LHW glyph might be only helpful on tanks, generally speaking, you'll be healing that tank with LHW more often then you'll be using HW at all. In the average raid lock-out (FL-Yogg_25-man) I might drop a total of 30 healing waves at most. That contrasted with well over 1000 LHW, chances are the healing increase from the 100 or so LHW dropped on a targe with Earth Shield would yield much higher results.
As for 3.2 I believe shamans will return to CH, just not like in TBC days, we'll be more well-rounded, but HW will still remain highly situational.
I'm sure I missed some answers here-and-there, it's 12:51, I'm rather tired, and gemming for haste is eluding me. But I hope that answers your questions for the most part, I'm sure if you ask any other Shaman on EJ, they will have varying answers, but the one consistency will most likely be the situational usage of HW.
Seeing how I can out heal just about any class save holy priests in IC, XT, Aruia(sp). I die in thorim....Comes 3.2.
Speed? You can get a lot of haste. Hell if i really wanted to i could get healing wave below the GCD about I think 8% of any given fight(this not counting blood lust). That is not an issue for me. Mana is a bigger issue, and honeslty if I got the nobles, and NP5 or the int trinket I would be in heaven.
I think some of the reason why there seems to be such a huge cleft between the LHW-people and the HW-people is raidsize.
As Mandydeth said the important question is how often will HW overheal, and at what points (in time). This is particularily important for the GoHW so that you don't ever have to target yourself with a heal against AEs - Hodir comes to mind.
In a 10man raid this is all fairly easy. Assuming you're doing a role only you are assigned to the crosshealing will be minimal, you can perfectly pre-plan your healing output.
In a 25man it will be very rare that you are the only healer assigned to a specific target or set of targets. As soon as crosshealing comes into play overhealing becomes a serious problem for HW, mainly because it cancels out the glyph.
Am I right to read between the lines that those who vehemently stand by HW as the go-to heal mostly raid 10mans and/or have healsetups which make them the sole healer on something? And that those who defend LHW as the primary heal raid 25mans with mixed healing setups?
SQUEAK.
-- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
Speed? You can get a lot of haste. Hell if i really wanted to i could get healing wave below the GCD about I think 8% of any given fight(this not counting blood lust).
You would need 150% haste to get HW to the GCD cap. 30% from tidal waves. You're saying you'll get 120% haste from regular raid buffs and gear. I don't even understand why you'd stack haste for HW anyway; int/spell/crit all seem like better options. If you find yourself stuck in a situation that needs a fast heal you'll use riptide or maybe lhw no matter how much haste you have.
I used to be one of the more ardent defenders of HW. It is vastly superior to LHW on pure theoretical numbers. It has higher base hpm and hps and scales better with spell power. The gap widens significantly with Healing Way and Tidal Waves. With 2 resto shaman in our usual raid configuration, both with Healing Way, my shaman_hep reports indicated 70% of my HW had the buff, even spot-healing the raid. Its cast time with with TW is almost on the gcd, so my chain casting throughput was good. In T7 content I took LHW off my action bars because I used it so seldom, and recount was showing strong numbers for my RT-HW healing style.
As we moved to T8 content, I tried out the RT-LHW style in Ulduar to see the opposition viewpoint, and haven't gone back. A TW-hasted LHW is the fastest non-instant heal in the game. The healing environment in Ulduar is different from Naxx. In Ulduar often the difference between a 0.8s heal and a 1.3s heal is a player dying. A spell that casts faster than the gcd is no better for throughput than a spell on the gcd, but it's better for actually keeping people alive in-game.
With 3.2 patch mechanics I will have to refine my play style again. Healing Way is getting buffed in both numbers and uptime, and GoHW is getting the same buff in 3.2 that AA got in 3.1. LHW is losing its unique niche of incredible speed, but it's getting improved in both hpm and hps.
LHW in fact gains a whole other mechanic with it's new +25% crit synergizing well with using it on the ESed target where it heals for +20% anyways. It should make for a nice AA output over the entire raid, and AA generally runs a low amount of overhealing so the throughput should go up nicely.
(edit)
You're right, checked my own parse and 15-20% seems normal. Still low compared to manually casted heals, but changed the wording.
Last edited by KnThrak : 07/12/09 at 6:53 AM.
SQUEAK.
-- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
The delay between the heal that trigers the AA and the AA heal is approximately 1 second. I have not found a good test to figure out if the target is picked at the time of the initial heal or at the time of the Ancestral Awakening. Based on the overhealing performance of AA I believe that it picks the target at the time of the initial heal (lhw in the above case). Either way, the above combatlog shows the entire Lesser Healing Wave and Ancestral Awakening overhealing.
06/23/09, 9:46 AM
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