[Resto] Best Practices: PvE Healing Discussion - Page 46

Widewing · 12/20/09, 8:32 AM

Originally Posted by Falcon213

If you give the scenario that you have a fight that lasts less than two minutes then yes, it is worth more than its 68 mp5. However, you would have to completely drain your mana pool in that two minutes for it to be worth more than a trinket that gives the same amount of straight mp5.

I'm still not sure i follow your logic. Are you thinking of the fact that if you don't go oom in a fight the spare mana that you have will you be a waste, and therefore render the extra mp5 useless?

And for the record i don't believe the fight has to be less than 2 mins.
The thing about it is that it's worth more if the fight ends while the trinket still on cooldown. This makes sense cause you get 2 mins worth of mp5 but you only spend, lets say 1 min. That would give it the 68 mp5 on all it uses, except the last one where it might be even higher.
This will give us that the longer the fight is, the closer the mp5 value will be to 68. Simply cause there's more times that it returns 68mp5, than it returns to something higher (the very last time you use it before the fight ends)
So to really figure out the actual mp5 on this trinket, i suppose you have to find out how long your fights are.

Not saying that i get your logic, but this would mean that you have a lot more time whan 2 mins to go oom, that you said. Not sure how this is relevant though

Just as a little bonus i'm gonna add an example where it's also superior to usual mp5 trinkets: Just after you've ankh'd

scrusi · 12/20/09, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Widewing

Just as a little bonus i'm gonna add an example where it's also superior to usual mp5 trinkets: Just after you've ankh'd

Careful, death makes the math very tricky. Assuming you use the trinket on every cooldown (which you need to get the nominal mp5 value), you don't get a chance to save it for ankh. This means it is very likely that your trinket will be on cooldown when you die, meaning you get some time (between 0 and 120 seconds) in which your trinket does absolutely nothing, while a strict mp5 trinket would start working right away. Since mana before the death is likely irrelevant, death can even lead to you not getting any use out of trinket at all in a fight.
I think it's safe to count the part of the fight after you died as the whole fight for purposes of this comparison, but with the added effect that the fight starts with the trinket on cooldown for a variable amount of time.

Edit: here's an attempt at formulating this. L is the length of fight remaining after you ankh in seconds C is the cooldown remaining on the trinket after you ankh in seconds, and M is the number of seconds of base mp5 regeneration you gain when using the lump sum trinket,. If that number is negative, a traditional mp5 trinket with the same base will provide more mana.

$M = \lceil\frac{L-C}{120}\rceil \cdot 120 - L$

So if you have 60 seconds of CD left on your trinket and another 200 seconds of fight left you gain 40 seconds of mp5 from the lump sum trinket (2 uses = 240 seconds as opposed to 200 seconds from the mp5 trinket).
If the same fight lasts only 140 more seconds you lose 20 seconds of mp5 (one use = 120 seconds, as opposed to 140 seconds from the mp5 trinket).
If it lasts only 50 seconds, you lose the full 50 seconds because you can't use the trinket even once.

Bloch · 12/20/09, 8:54 PM

Originally Posted by Falcon213

The minimum mp5 this trinket gives is zero, as that would be never using it. Hitting it every two minutes on the dot gives 68 mp5. If you macro it to every heal you have, what is to say that you are casting a heal every time it comes off of cooldown?

If you give the scenario that you have a fight that lasts less than two minutes then yes, it is worth more than its 68 mp5. However, you would have to completely drain your mana pool in that two minutes for it to be worth more than a trinket that gives the same amount of straight mp5.

I still don't understand why you seem to think that draining your mana pool is somehow correlated with increasing the mp5 value of this trinket. If you're talking about mp5 having a lower HEP value if you're not going oom, then I see no reason why that wouldn't carry over to the mp5 trinket. Widewing is correct in his assessment of how the trinket works.

All that is relevant for the trinket to maintain its value is that when used, the trinket must not "over fill" your mana pool-- for example, using it when you are at 26k/27k mana (which would waste 625 mana). As long as this condition is met, the amount of mana you have left in your mana pool is not relevant to the mp5 value of the trinket.

• Jessamy · 12/20/09, 9:52 PM

The problem with the sliver isn't that a use effect is awkward and varies in how much benefit it provides. The problem is that the benefit provided by the sliver is just so bad for its level.

	ilvl	SP	mp5 (theory)	mp5 (actual)
Solace	245	150	128	107*
Sliver	251	158	67	81**

* Solace has a ramp up time, and sometimes the stack falls off. The 107 mp5 value is from my patch 3.2 shaman_hep report.
** The 81 mp5 value assumes 3 uses in a 5 minute fight.

If you somehow have enough regen that you don't need to use the sliver effect at all, then you will always have it available right after ankh, druid rez, or mana drain effect. If that's the case though, a pure throughput trinket might serve you better. [Herkuml War Token] is surprisingly good, for instance.

Esrgoode · 12/21/09, 5:37 AM

Hi Guys (and gals),

I recently aquired [Ephemeral Snowflake]and after looking at the HEP report from the run it seems a little lack lustre.

Has anyone got any other values for this to compare?

In my reports Solace delivers between 100 and 115 Mp5, so that is a comparison. I ran with it through a fast farm run of toc-25 normal last night, the buff "replenished" delivered a whopping 37Mp5.

I even glyphed for riptide to try to deliver more ticks to get the trinket to shine, and tried to cast riptide on as many different people as possible as often as possible to maximise this.

I had HST down (just in case, I know it should not work.. but then there is a lot of things in the game that should not work that do)

I am not a massive fan of "on use" trinkets, I find them frustrating as i always forget to use them, and you can not macro the haste proc, as under normal situations you dont need it, and if you did macro it, when you did need it, it almost certainly would be on CD.

I intend to persever, and use it over the farm runs through ICC-10 and ICC-25 and Toc-25 over the holidays to get some sort of statistical spread.

But on first pass, it does looks rather poor for us.

Esr.

Bloch · 12/21/09, 6:50 PM

Originally Posted by Esrgoode

Hi Guys (and gals),

I recently aquired [Ephemeral Snowflake]and after looking at the HEP report from the run it seems a little lack lustre.

Has anyone got any other values for this to compare?

In my reports Solace delivers between 100 and 115 Mp5, so that is a comparison. I ran with it through a fast farm run of toc-25 normal last night, the buff "replenished" delivered a whopping 37Mp5.

I even glyphed for riptide to try to deliver more ticks to get the trinket to shine, and tried to cast riptide on as many different people as possible as often as possible to maximise this.

I had HST down (just in case, I know it should not work.. but then there is a lot of things in the game that should not work that do)

I am not a massive fan of "on use" trinkets, I find them frustrating as i always forget to use them, and you can not macro the haste proc, as under normal situations you dont need it, and if you did macro it, when you did need it, it almost certainly would be on CD.

I intend to persever, and use it over the farm runs through ICC-10 and ICC-25 and Toc-25 over the holidays to get some sort of statistical spread.

But on first pass, it does looks rather poor for us.

Esr.

It was decent until Blizz came along and beat it with the nerfbat.

"The Ephemeral Snowflake trinket now has a very short cooldown to prevent it from restoring inappropriately large amounts of mana." (source: BLUE POST).

Now it is basically a placeholder until you can get your hands on a Solace or two. Most HEP reports I've seen place the equip effect between 30-65 mp5 for shamans (with the 65 coming on fights where you're spamming chain heal). I think, if you're looking for a regen trinket, something along the lines of [Binding Stone] or even [Talisman of Resurgence] would be better. Both are very easy to get, and both will outperform the snowflake in terms of regen.

Kamelztotem · 12/23/09, 1:00 AM

So I am having a hard time deciding which item to go after first with our new frost badges. I am in a tens only guild so I am limited in some of my gear selections. The first four bosses have been a joke and most fights I end at around 70% mana so while mp5 still has a HEP of 1 I dont value it at that. At first I was leaning towards the ele relic for the nice haste but the more I think about it the more i become nervous about working it in once we get to HM's and the chance for misses, am i crazy for looking at the Herkumi War token with its 153 haste? I know it has a completely wasted proc but with Hep reports running haste at 1.8 to mid 2's im very tempted. I guess im hoping there is a clear choice out there that I'm just missing.
Any thoughts from the community would be great.

Bloch · 12/23/09, 2:16 PM

Originally Posted by Kamelztotem

So I am having a hard time deciding which item to go after first with our new frost badges. I am in a tens only guild so I am limited in some of my gear selections. The first four bosses have been a joke and most fights I end at around 70% mana so while mp5 still has a HEP of 1 I dont value it at that. At first I was leaning towards the ele relic for the nice haste but the more I think about it the more i become nervous about working it in once we get to HM's and the chance for misses, am i crazy for looking at the Herkumi War token with its 153 haste? I know it has a completely wasted proc but with Hep reports running haste at 1.8 to mid 2's im very tempted. I guess im hoping there is a clear choice out there that I'm just missing.
Any thoughts from the community would be great.

I'm curious what healing setup you run (and, by extension, what you're asked to do/heal in raids). The ele relic just doesn't seem that appealing TBH in light on our T10 2pc and the insane amounts of haste we get from gear. Once all the "wings" of ICC have been released, I think you can expect to get near the softcap provided you're gemming haste, which diminishes the value of the ele relic significantly.

The Herkumi war token is an amazing throughput trinket--depending on your personal HEP values, it ranges between 229.5 and 336.6 (for 1.5 and 2.2 values of haste, respectively). Comparable "healing" trinkets offer between 229 [Purified Lunar Dust] and 312[Solace of the Defeated]. Both of these values assume a HEP of 1 for both SP and Mp5, the latter of which is probably lower in actuality (given the fact that most shamans are not going oom in raid content at this time). So, in terms of pure throughput, [Herkuml War Token] is a solid trinket, provided you don't need the regen.

Edit: I can't spell "Herkuml" apparently

crunchyblack · 12/24/09, 5:21 PM

Has there been any testing regarding 63 SP vs Black Magic as a weapon enchant? I've search the forums but haven't found anything.

Bloch · 12/24/09, 5:46 PM

Originally Posted by crunchyblack

Has there been any testing regarding 63 SP vs Black Magic as a weapon enchant? I've search the forums but haven't found anything.

The proc on Black Magic is 250 haste for 15 seconds, with a 45 second ICD and a ~50% chance to proc. This gives:

(250*15)/(45+1.5)= 80.65 static haste = 120.96 HEP (@ 1.5 HEP value for haste)
(250*15)/(45+1.5)= 80.65 static haste = 137.01 HEP (@ 1.7 HEP value for haste)
(250*15)/(45+1.5)= 80.65 static haste = 153.23 HEP (@ 1.9 HEP value for haste)
(250*15)/(45+1.5)= 80.65 static haste = 169.35 HEP (@ 2.1 HEP value for haste)
(250*15)/(45+1.5)= 80.65 static haste = 185.48 HEP (@ 2.3 HEP value for haste)

*The (1.5) added to the ICD in the denominator assumes 1 second casts and a 50% chance to proc.

Superior spellpower gives 63 static spellpower = 63 HEP

So, at least in theory, Black Magic is at least twice as good as Superior Spellpower in terms of pure HEP, but this assumes that the proc will not put you over the haste soft-cap (~1269 with raid buffs). If it does, then any instant casts (riptide, earthshield) or 1 second casts (LHW) will diminish the value of the proc. I will try to get some concrete values later tonight and post them in this thread to see how close they are to the expected results.

Edit: haste soft cap is 1269, not 1278. Forgot haste is multiplicative, meaning we get 8.15% from buffs, not 8%. Thanks to Jessamy for pointing this out.

Widewing · 12/24/09, 7:57 PM

There are a few points which also has to be taken into account when figuring out if it's worth it:

Black Magic procs from harmful spells only.
Since it's harmful spells only, your spells might be resisted.
Furthermore it is a proc and as such it might be wasted at times.

Since it's only from harmful spells it wont just proc while your just healing, but have to take the time to cast a harmful spell.
I'm not aware how much of a problem this would be, but I'm guessing at the times you actually need the extra haste you wont have much time casting dps spells

With the lack of spell hit taken into account the actual chance of getting the buff will be lowered to (50% * 83%) 41,5% per cast.
That's assuming there's no adds you can cast on instead of the boss.

I am currently not aware, however, if it procs on cast or on hit. If it's just on cast nevermind the aspect about hit rating.

doogless · 12/25/09, 2:08 AM

Black Magic should proc off Wind Shear, which is off the GCD, so getting a spell in to proc it during times of heavy healing shouldn't be an issue.

edit: after testing on a training dummy, it appears that Wind Shock actually doesn't proc Black Magic. That's rather counter-intuitive as I would definitely describe it as "harmful," but that's how it functions.

mwaf · 12/25/09, 6:51 AM

Originally Posted by Bloch

The proc on Black Magic is 250 haste for 15 seconds, with a 45 second ICD and a ~50% chance to proc. This gives:

(250*15)/(45+1.5)= 80.65 static haste = 120.96 HEP (@ 1.5 HEP value for haste)

From the warlock forums:

Originally Posted by ultrajustin

According to the sim black magic is an average of about 62.5 haste (25% uptime) vs 63 spell power enchant.

Given a 25% uptime, it would still be better than then the SP enchant, but keeping the proc up as resto is inconvenient at beast.

• Jessamy · 12/25/09, 11:56 AM

You should be able to macro wind shear into all your healing spells and get the enchant (and elemental t10 relic) to proc without diverting your attention away from healing. Something like this:

/cast lesser healing wave
/cast [target=enemy] wind shear
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();

Problems with this approach:
- Targetting is random. Even though wind shear is negative threat, you might get the attention of an add that has just spawned and has no threat table yet.
- The random targetting might also pick a target that's either out of shock range, or behind you.
- Spamming wind shear every 6s means you don't have to worry about forcing a proc, but it also means you can't control when you force a proc.
- I have enough haste that either the black magic proc or the elemental relic proc would put me over the cap.
- It's easier to get a feel for how fast you cast and develop a rhythm with static haste. With a haste proc (like that from the Egg trinket), you have to be more aware of your cast bar.

stassart · 12/25/09, 2:41 PM

Rather than targeting random enemies, if I did the wind shear every 6 seconds approach I would likely use targettarget instead so that one would be at least hitting mobs that the people one is healing are targeting at least so that one would be less likely to pull something that one should not.

/cast [target=targettarget,harm] Wind Shear

The other unmentioned disadvantages of this approach:

1) Not having wind shear available if one actually wants it.
2) Increased mana cost: This would consume an extra 293 mp5, which isn't an insignificant amount. While mana is normally a non-issue, this may be enough to cause it to be an issue. One could spend a talent point in Shamanistic Focus to drop this to 161 mp5.

I do not believe that the advantage outweighs the disadvantages.

mwaf · 12/25/09, 5:48 PM

Has anyone tested if Wind Shear really does proc Black magic? (I'm currently unable to test in-game due to the holidays.)

Anyway, assuming it does, and not being able to run any HEPs, I chose to run simulationcraft tests instead. I created a profile of my alt shaman and Jessamy's shaman. Simcraft does not model Wind shear to proc Black magic, so I used frost shock instead. It should be sufficient for uptime purposes. My action list boiled down to the following:

actions+=/frost_shock
actions+=/chain_heal

Now it turns out that both Jessamy and I have a little hit rating on our gear, but I disable mine just to see the difference. The results are:

    black_magic : start=6.4   refresh=0.0    interval= 48.9|48.9   uptime=21%  trigger=35%
    black_magic : start=6.2   refresh=0.0    interval= 49.4|49.4   uptime=20%  trigger=35%

The first line is Jessamy's char with 61 hit, and the second one is mine with 0 hit. The uptime difference for 61 hit is not staggering and note that I only had a 13% miss rate on frost shock due to IFF/misery.

Even without hit rating from gear, the 20% uptime on a raid boss combined with a HEP value of 1.5 for haste yields a total 250*.2*1.5=75 HEP compared to 63 HEP of the regular spellpower enchant.

Obviously simulationcraft isn't the best tool for this, but the results would indicate that it's worthwhile to test in a raid setting and generate HEP reports on it. HEP would also be better at modeling how this affects our mana which is my main concern with using wind shear. At least for me, losing 295 mp5, even 161 mp5, for an additional 12 HEP is hardly worth it.

Full simcraft output:

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft build 3.2.2 ( iterations=30000, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1, smooth_rng=0 )

Generating baseline... 
0.00     simcraft: mwaf has unknown totem totem_of_calming_tides
player_t: Unknown action: chain_heal
0.00     simcraft: Allium has unknown totem totem_of_calming_tides
player_t: Unknown action: chain_heal
10... 9... 8... 7... 6... 5... 4... 3... 2... 1... 

Generating reports...

DPS Ranking:
    792 100.0%  Raid
    412  51.9%  Allium
    381  48.1%  mwaf

Player: Allium draenei shaman restoration 80
  DPS: 411.9  Error=0.3  Range=95  DPR=3.1  RPS=132.8/130.3  (mana)
  Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=20227654
  Core Stats:  strength=389|131(10)  agility=334|81(10)  stamina=1672|1222(1087)  intellect=1544|1289(1043)  spirit=307|155(10)  health=23060|19000  mana=27276|23451
  Spell Stats:  power=2850|2399(2399)  hit=3.33%|2.33%(61)  crit=39.78%|33.25%(657)  penetration=0|0(0)  haste=44.50%|33.61%(1102)  mp5=154|154(154)
  Attack Stats  power=1794|352(0)  hit=2.86%|1.86%(61)  crit=31.25%|23.21%(657)  expertise=0.00|0.00(0)  penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0)  haste=77.61%|43.69%(1102)
  Defense Stats:  armor=14989|14483(14321)  blockv=418|288(223)  defense=0|0(0)  miss=0.00%|0.00%  dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0)  parry=0.00%|0.00%(0)  block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90%
  Glyphs: chain_heal/lesser_healing_wave/earth_shield/water_walking/renewed_life/water_shield
  Priorities:
    flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=fish_feast/water_shield/mana_spring_totem/wrath_of_air_totem
    snapshot_stats/bloodlust,time_to_die<=59/speed_potion/frost_shock,if=true/chain_heal
  Actions:
    frost_shock  Count= 50.3| 6.1sec  DPE=  2454|100%  DPET=  2083  DPR=   3.1  pDPS= 412  Miss=10.7%  Hit=2219|2181|2237  Crit= 3329| 3272| 3356|42.6%
  Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude
  Constant Buffs: heroic_presence/mark_of_the_wild/replenishment/water_shield
  Dynamic Buffs:
    black_magic            : start=6.4   refresh=0.0    interval= 48.9|48.9   uptime=21%  trigger=35%
    bloodlust              : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime=13%
    eye_of_the_broodmother : start=5.7   refresh=39.2   interval= 53.1|6.8    uptime=95%
  Procs:
     16.8 |  17.43sec : judgement_of_wisdom
  Gains:
     6105.4 : blessing_of_wisdom      (overflow=6.6%)
    27276.0 : initial_mana          
     1479.7 : judgement_of_wisdom   
     9051.3 : mp5_regen               (overflow=1.8%)
    15250.2 : replenishment           (overflow=6.6%)
     1989.2 : spirit_intellect_regen  (overflow=6.1%)
     5180.7 : water_shield            (overflow=13.4%)

Player: mwaf draenei shaman restoration 80
  DPS: 381.4  Error=0.3  Range=103  DPR=2.9  RPS=131.4/131.0  (mana)
  Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=20219959
  Core Stats:  strength=378|121(0)  agility=323|71(0)  stamina=1592|1149(1014)  intellect=1560|1303(1056)  spirit=351|195(50)  health=22260|18270  mana=27516|23661
  Spell Stats:  power=2774|2323(2323)  hit=1.00%|0.00%(0)  crit=37.94%|31.40%(568)  penetration=0|0(0)  haste=30.71%|20.86%(684)  mp5=253|253(253)
  Attack Stats  power=1770|332(0)  hit=1.00%|0.00%(0)  crit=29.17%|21.15%(568)  expertise=0.00|0.00(0)  penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0)  haste=57.12%|27.12%(684)
  Defense Stats:  armor=8609|8105(7963)  blockv=189|60(0)  defense=0|0(0)  miss=0.00%|0.00%  dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0)  parry=0.00%|0.00%(0)  block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90%
  Glyphs: earth_shield/riptide/chain_heal/astral_recall/water_walking/water_shield
  Priorities:
    flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=fish_feast/water_shield/mana_spring_totem/wrath_of_air_totem
    snapshot_stats/bloodlust,time_to_die<=59/speed_potion/frost_shock/chain_heal
  Actions:
    frost_shock  Count= 49.8| 6.1sec  DPE=  2297|100%  DPET=  1810  DPR=   2.9  pDPS= 381  Miss=13.0%  Hit=2147|2147|2147  Crit= 3220| 3220| 3220|39.9%
  Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude
  Constant Buffs: heroic_presence/insightful_earthsiege/mark_of_the_wild/replenishment/water_shield
  Dynamic Buffs:
    black_magic : start=6.2   refresh=0.0    interval= 49.4|49.4   uptime=20%  trigger=35%
    bloodlust   : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime=13%
  Procs:
     16.3 |  17.81sec : judgement_of_wisdom
  Gains:
     5073.3 : blessing_of_wisdom      (overflow=22.4%)
    27516.0 : initial_mana          
     1431.1 : judgement_of_wisdom   
    12553.0 : mp5_regen               (overflow=17.1%)
    13368.2 : replenishment           (overflow=18.8%)
     1507.8 : spirit_intellect_regen  (overflow=38.4%)
     4536.7 : water_shield            (overflow=24.2%)

Auras and De-Buffs:
  Constant: abominations_might/arcane_empowerment/battle_shout/bleeding/blood_frenzy/crypt_fever/curse_of_elements
  Constant: earth_and_moon/elemental_oath/expose_armor/faerie_fire/ferocious_inspiration/flametongue_totem
  Constant: heart_of_the_crusader/hunters_mark/improved_faerie_fire/improved_moonkin/improved_scorch
  Constant: improved_shadow_bolt/infected_wounds/insect_swarm/judgement_of_wisdom/judgements_of_the_just
  Constant: leader_of_the_pack/mana_spring_totem/mangle/master_poisoner/misery/moonkin/poisoned/rampage
  Constant: sanctified_retribution/savage_combat/strength_of_earth/sunder_armor/swift_retribution/thunder_clap
  Constant: totem_of_wrath/totem_of_wrath_debuff/trauma/trueshot/unleashed_rage/windfury_totem/winters_chill
  Constant: wrath_of_air
  Dynamic:

Waiting:
    79.2% : mwaf
    80.6% : Allium

Baseline Performance:
  TotalEvents   = 162448222
  MaxEventQueue = 12
  TargetHealth  = 236299
  SimSeconds    = 9002180
  CpuSeconds    = 1.186
  SpeedUp       = 7590371

RNG global Actual/Expected Roll=1.000094 Range=1.000000 Gauss=1.000000

Zigizi · 12/25/09, 6:28 PM

Originally Posted by stassart

Rather than targeting random enemies, if I did the wind shear every 6 seconds approach...

...

2) Increased mana cost: This would consume an extra 293 mp5, which isn't an insignificant amount. While mana is normally a non-issue, this may be enough to cause it to be an issue. One could spend a talent point in Shamanistic Focus to drop this to 161 mp5.

I do not believe that the advantage outweighs the disadvantages.

I agree with your ultimate assessment-- losing the utility of wind shear for interrupting spells and dropping threat for an unpredictable proc doesn't seem worth it, but I'm curious about some of the math.

If the proc has an internal cooldown of 45 seconds, why not use a castsequence so it only casts maybe every 4th or 5th riptide?

Ammanas · 12/25/09, 7:16 PM

As for as upgrade path with frost badges I'm personally going T10 Shoulders -> T10 Helmet. This will allow me to get to 2pc/2pc (using 258 T9 gloves/chest) while replacing T9 shoulders (MP5) for the crit/haste T10 and upgrading the ilvl of my helm which is [Helm of the Crypt Lord].

There are lots of good options from badges though. The belt is nice but there is a cloth belt from ICC25 that is also crit/haste and is higher ilvl. The trinkets are decent as well but I already have access to double solace and [Althor's Abacus] when I want a thoroughput trinket.

The haste melee trinket is interesting but that amount of static haste would put me over the soft cap. Same deal for the ele relic which is also interesting. I could re-gem to make use of either but decided to start working on T10 instead.

I don't know how great the set bonuses will be in practice but the 2pc is very appealing to my healing style and with the itemization on the T10 and the overall amount of haste on gear I think stomaching a crit/mp5 piece for the 4PC bonus will be worth it if the 4pc is decent at all. Regardless of what happens with the set bonuses I think its pretty universally agreed that every resto shaman is at least going to use 2PC T10 - be it with 4PC T10, 2 PC T10 + 2 PC T9, or 2 PC T10 + ICC off-set pieces.

TLDR version: If you are already fully geared from ToC then you probably have enough haste to start working towards the 2PC T10 bonus. If you are lacking gear and starved for haste you might want to look into the static haste trinket and/or the ele relic first.

Biracaz · 12/25/09, 7:54 PM

Originally Posted by Bloch

Edit: haste soft cap is 1269, not 1278. Forgot haste is multiplicative, meaning we get 8.15% from buffs, not 8%. Thanks to Jessamy for pointing this out.

At the risk of embarrassing myself, but I was not able to find the math that leads to these numbers in this thread nor anywhere else on these forums. Could someone please provide a link to a post that explains them or do some quick post about it himself? I've also heard about values in the 1400s to be worth pursuing, but have never seen the math for them.

I'm approaching 1200 pretty fast and will hit it with a few new items and would like to be clear were to go. Any helpful post about this would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

orion121 · 12/25/09, 8:04 PM

Originally Posted by Biracaz

At the risk of embarrassing myself, but I was not able to find the math that leads to these numbers in this thread nor anywhere else on these forums. Could someone please provide a link to a post that explains them or do some quick post about it himself? I've also heard about values in the 1400s to be worth pursuing, but have never seen the math for them.

I'm approaching 1200 pretty fast and will hit it with a few new items and would like to be clear were to go. Any helpful post about this would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

I've posted about the haste soft-cap several times in the Elemental threads, the effective numbers is 1269, which I usually round to 1270 for simplicity sake. This assumes both Wrath of Air and Ret/Moonkin haste buffs are present, any number in the 1400's is likely ignoring the later.

The means for calculating haste are as follows (@30% character sheet haste):

New Cast Time = Original Cast Time / (1.30*1.05*1.03)

<3

UberDrivel · 12/25/09, 8:20 PM

While we're on the topic of trinkets, having not seen [Nevermelting Ice Crystal] in a week of running H PoS, I was considering using [Abyssal Rune] until something better drops. Similar to the new Elemental Totem, maintaining the buff would probably consist of shocking now and then. It's no War Totem, but I have [Figurine - Sapphire Owl] with haste gems and [Tears of the Vanquished], the latter of which gives zero throughput and seems pretty unneeded. (Armory.)

Could someone calculate the HEP of 590 SP for 10 secs, on a 45 second ICD? Along with 146 passive HEP, it seems useable, if not spectacular.

Biracaz · 12/25/09, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by orion121

I've posted about the haste soft-cap several times in the Elemental threads, the effective numbers is 1269, which I usually round to 1270 for simplicity sake. This assumes both Wrath of Air and Ret/Moonkin haste buffs are present, any number in the 1400's is likely ignoring the later.

The means for calculating haste are as follows (@30% character sheet haste):

New Cast Time = Original Cast Time / (1.30*1.05*1.03)

<3

Thanks a lot, I was stuck on Restoration posts, but now it seems quite obvious that these things would be natural in a damage thread. Me likes, much love!

mwaf · 12/26/09, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by mwaf

Has anyone tested if Wind Shear really does proc Black magic? (I'm currently unable to test in-game due to the holidays.)

Back home and I went ahead and spammed Wind Shear on a level 80 training dummy for 10 minutes without a single proc. Second lightning bolt after that procced it. Then I went to Cystalsong Forest to test on some Unbound Seers, they have an interruptable ability with a cast time. Using wind shear to interrupt said cast does proc black magic. All in all there's just too many variables to make the enchant viable.

Bottom line: Black Magic is not worth having for a restoration shaman.

UberDrivel · 12/27/09, 7:36 PM

There is one offensive spell that requires no hit (and no targeting) and presumably procs Black Magic (as well as Abyssal Rune, for that matter): Fire Nova. The downside is the 10 second cooldown and relatively high mana cost, and of course the cost of a GCD. I still don't think it's better than +63 spellpower because of the effort of maintaining the buff, but perhaps it's worth a test.

mwaf · 12/28/09, 6:18 AM

Originally Posted by UberDrivel

There is one offensive spell that requires no hit (and no targeting) and presumably procs Black Magic (as well as Abyssal Rune, for that matter): Fire Nova. The downside is the 10 second cooldown and relatively high mana cost, and of course the cost of a GCD. I still don't think it's better than +63 spellpower because of the effort of maintaining the buff, but perhaps it's worth a test.

Fire nova does indeed proc Black magic, but there are some issues:

Your fire totem needs to be within 10 yards of an enemy
Your hit rating matters, I had misses on a heroic training dummy
The mana cost is a staggering: 4396*0.22 / 2 = 484 mp5
With a longer CD than Wind shear, the Black magic uptime is probably not high enough to give more than 63 HEP

P.S. I also tested a bit with Flame Shock, only the initial spell cast seems to proc the haste buff, i.e. not the ticks. This is in line with the wording on the enchant: "cause your harmful spells to sometimes". Using a shock every 6s at 17-18% base mana is just way too heavy.