Thanks a lot, I was stuck on Restoration posts, but now it seems quite obvious that these things would be natural in a damage thread. Me likes, much love!
While it gives some helpful information, it doesn't tell you the soft haste spell cap (which is what most people want to know these days). I'll add that information and move it up so it's easier to find. I also forgot that haste was multiplicative so I'll correct the 8% to 8.15% and add the information about the soft haste cap.
If anyone has further suggestions, let me know. Thanks.
Has anyone done any rough theory-crafting on the relative values of crit to haste with T10 4pc? I've been thinking about this since I just hit the soft cap (1269) and I'm not trying to figure out what to gem now. Originally I was going to go with SP, but that seems to only really contribute to overhealing once you've hit 3400-3800 spellpower raid buffed (I'm at ~3750 currently with trinket procc'd).
So my next thought was crit: more crits should mean more T10 procs, which gives us quite a bit: (1) mana back from improved water shield (not a major consideration now, but come hardmodes it could be helpful), (2) additional healing done from the initial heal, (3) 30% additional smart healing on our RT, LHW, and HW spells via AA, and now (4) 25% additional healing on our chain heal.
Obviously the HEP value of crit below the soft cap was quite low relative to haste, but after the soft cap, it seems the HEP of haste should drop off considerably (about 45-55% of our spells are now GCD-capped, so the value of haste should decrease by a margin proportional to this). I'm beginning to piece together some logs and figure out values without the 4Pc, but what I'm really interested in are the expected HEP values with the 4pc for a soft-capped shaman.
When gearing 251+ is there a base amount of Mp5 that a resto shaman wants to keep (even if that means enchanting or gemming) or does intellect take over? (I'm wondering how important the head or shoulder Mp5 enchants are VS the crit counterparts)
When gearing 251+ is there a base amount of Mp5 that a resto shaman wants to keep (even if that means enchanting or gemming) or does intellect take over? (I'm wondering how important the head or shoulder Mp5 enchants are VS the crit counterparts)
The crit enchants are better as long as you don't go oom.
When gearing 251+ is there a base amount of Mp5 that a resto shaman wants to keep (even if that means enchanting or gemming) or does intellect take over? (I'm wondering how important the head or shoulder Mp5 enchants are VS the crit counterparts)
I have always thought that the rule-of-thumb is to stack throughput to the point that your mana pool allows you to. This will be different for everyone.
As long as your have mana at the end of the fight then you have (greater than or equal to) enough Mp5, some fights are longer and more healing intense than others (though not so far in ICC).
With two SP+mana reg trinket (eg Show of Faith, Solace, Sif's Remembrance etc) and your DPS being half competent you shouldn't have any problems with mana.
Its silly the sheer power Solace gives, but having even one of these pretty much makes your gear set due to the amount of mp5 it has. 2x solace - swimming in mana. 1x solace + another SP+mana reg trinket - more than comfortable in mana.
This is coming from my own observations of currently running 362mp5 unbuffed (including water shield), 1330 haste without food and iLevel 245 Solace with a Sif's Remembrance. Also using the crit head and shoulder enchants.
To give you an idea of how it holds up, going into Anub'Arak (Hard) phase 3 with 100% mana, I can spam a mixture of LHW(80%)/HW(20%) while using Riptide every cooldown literally non-stop without mana potion or mana tide, and when the boss dies am left with around 20% mana.
This of course depends on your guild's DPS, the amount of damage your raid takes, etc etc. To get the balance of mana/HPS completely right you need to test and make your own observations based on the situation your guild finds itself in. There is no magic number another player can tell you.
Has anyone done any rough theory-crafting on the relative values of crit to haste with T10 4pc? I've been thinking about this since I just hit the soft cap (1269) and I'm not trying to figure out what to gem now. Originally I was going to go with SP, but that seems to only really contribute to overhealing once you've hit 3400-3800 spellpower raid buffed (I'm at ~3750 currently with trinket procc'd).
(4) 25% additional healing on our chain heal.
Thought about the same, the 4pc bonus, but rather about the actual effect of the bonus and if it might be prior compared to BIS items on the worse leg and glove slots of the set. I can´t really see it being better than BIS on 2-3 slots and just taking the 2pc Bonus.
"healed amount" equals to effective healing for me (haven´t found any different information yet) and then it dpends as well on which of the chain heal jumps crits.
I assume it will be overwritten by other Hots anyway, so that the overhealing is the most granted and furthermore: are the hots stacking up of different shamns or will they be overwritten by a stronger one?
Taking 25% of a 15k heal is 3750 healing split over 9 seconds. Anyone knows whats the tick time of the hot is?- (guess evry 3 seconds personally, what makes it then 1250 a tick).
Question I asked myself so far is, if the gained stast, especially Haste cover up for the effective healing done of the hot, cause nothing else counts, and thats why I disagree with the 4pc Bonus granting actual 25% more effective output by Chain Heal.
Thought about the same, the 4pc bonus, but rather about the actual effect of the bonus and if it might be prior compared to BIS items on the worse leg and glove slots of the set. I can´t really see it being better than BIS on 2-3 slots and just taking the 2pc Bonus.
3/4 Slots needed for the bonus are Tier 10 anyway: Head, Shoulders, Chest.
Hands is a relatively small sacrifice (~80 HEP using generic HEP values)
Here is the post i made on my guild forums to discuss this issue with our fellow shamans:
This post is just to determine which peices of T10 will result in the lowest opportunity cost by giving up a better itemized offset peice.
We can easily show that 3 peices are perfectly Itemized and should be used above non-set pieces on stats alone, not even counting set bonuses.
277 T10 HEAD277 T10 SHOULDERS277 T10 CHEST
Legs and Hands are horrid. MP5 and Crit. The worst possible combination.
However, with so much haste available, and resto getting very close to the 1269 haste rating softcap, and even able to surpass it using procs of 2 piece, or ele totem, it may be acceptable to use one of these peices, to take advantage of the 4 piece, even though it is not clearly amazing as a set bonus.
ASSUMPTIONS:
Sockets:
Red:12 SP/10 Haste
Yellow: 20 Haste
Blue: 10 Haste/5 MP5
HEP(default generalization may not be best)
SP: 1.0
MP5: 1.0
HASTE: 1.5
CRIT: 0.8
264 T10 LEGS
red/yellow (+7 SP)
108 Crit
46 MP5
171 SP
TOTAL HEP: 367.4
Mail 264 LEGS:
Crafted Legs
red/yellow/blue (+9SP)
92 crit
100 haste
162 SP
TOTAL HEP: 471.6
Putricide 10-Hard Legs
red/yellow/yellow (+9SP)
96 crit
96 haste
162 SP
TOTAL HEP: 478.8
264 T10 HANDS
red (+5 SP)
80 Crit
36 MP5
132 SP
TOTAL HEP: 264
Mail 264 OFFSET HANDS:
Festergut 25 Hands
blue (+5 SP)
36 MP5
80 Haste
132 SP
TOTAL HEP: 313
Valithria 10-Hard Hands
yellow/yellow (+5 SP)
84 Crit
58 Haste
122 SP
TOTAL HEP: 341.2
Frost Emblem Hands
yellow/blue (+7 SP)
80 Crit
64 Haste
122 SP
TOTAL HEP: 339
CONCLUSIONS:
@ 264 iLvL, wear T10 Hands and offset legs.
HEP loss for BiS
HANDS: 77.2
LEGS: 111.4
"healed amount" equals to effective healing for me (haven´t found any different information yet) and then it dpends as well on which of the chain heal jumps crits.
All similar procs have been changed to total healing, not effective heal. AA is the most obvious example. This was changed a few patches ago and I would bet it will be off total healing, including overheals.
I assume it will be overwritten by other Hots anyway, so that the overhealing is the most granted and furthermore: are the hots stacking up of different shamns or will they be overwritten by a stronger one?
Like riptide, and Earthliving, it *should* not be overwritten by another shamans hots.
Taking 25% of a 15k heal is 3750 healing split over 9 seconds. Anyone knows whats the tick time of the hot is?- (guess evry 3 seconds personally, what makes it then 1250 a tick).
Question I asked myself so far is, if the gained stast, especially Haste cover up for the effective healing done of the hot, cause nothing else counts, and thats why I disagree with the 4pc Bonus granting actual 25% more effective output by Chain Heal.
I agree that the hot will not increase the effective heals of chain heal by 25%. I do think that it will be a worthwhile bonus to pursue given the relatively small sacrifice to use T10 hands compared to other options, and considering the fact we should reach insanely high levels of haste with 264/277 gear anyway.
I, for one, will definitely pursue the 4 piece once I have used my badges for all other pertinent upgrades.
Last edited by TeKniciaN : 01/04/10 at 10:23 PM.
Reason: Added guild forums post
I also looked at whether 4p would be worth pursuing a little while ago. I didn't save my HEP comparisons though so I'm working from memory here. Obviously T10 can be boosted up to 277, and unless the MMO-Champion loot tables aren't complete, I don't think there's a crit/haste set of legs that pass 264.
There is however a haste/mp5 set of gloves (from one of this week's bosses I think) that drop in 25m heroic. I was therefore aiming to get the 4p through shoulders/chest/head and legs and aiming for these offspec 277 gloves to complete the set.
Obviously this depends on a couple of things 1) the HEP value of the 4p proc and 2) whether mana is at all an issue. Why bother with 1 crit/mp5 piece and 1 haste/mp5 piece even if they are 277 when a couple of 264 crit/hastes would give you more throughput? Personally, I think (and kind of hope) that mana will be at least a slight concern. Even now there's not many fights I'm 100% comfortable going into in my total throughput set (1240 haste, 34% crit, 98 mp5 (+1 hc solace), 3200 sp I think it is) so I'm happy to get myself a little more longevity from taking the 4p.
I had the same results as both of you : if you plan on ilvl 264 gear you'll take the T10 glove and if you plan on the longer term for ilvl 277 item then you'll choose to take the gloves [Unclean Surgical Gloves] from Festergut 25 as there aren't any ilvl 277 legs (except the T10 ones of course).
For the comparaison at ilvl 277 with my current HEP values :
At the moment it's not that easy to know if the 4 pieces bonus will be worth it, but as 3 pieces of the set will be BiS, trying it will only 'cost' one piece, which isn't that expensive in terms of badges (60 if you choose to keep the T10 gloves, 95 if you keep the legs) in the long term. For the moment we are deep in need for Frost Badges, but at the time we'll get access to Heroic Mode we won't be that much hungry for them.
With the curent HEP's values the T10 4pieces bonus got to be worth at least 60 HEP to be 'worth it'.
I'm working towards my second piece of T10 at the moment and am curious about the opinion of those of you who already have had a chance to play with the 2 piece bonus - Assuming you use Riptide at least every 7 or 8 seconds, would be worth it to go after a different stat, namely spell power or crit, assuming I'm already almost at 1300 haste, a bit over the soft cap, once I get the T10 2 pc?
I'd recommend you get a couple of other pieces to lower your haste a little, to swap in should the encounter require you to be predominantly tank healing. A good one would be the crit/mp5 boots from ICC25 to swap in for haste boots. Also pretty obviously use SP food instead of haste.
When you're raid healing don't bother worrying about the amount of haste you have.
It's been suggested by my guild that I consider re rolling from resto sham to resto tree to fill a gap in skilled healing trees. I'd like to hear your thoughts/predictions as to the viability of bringing a resto shaman vs. druid, particularly in initial attempts on harder bosses and hard modes.
Principally, I'm trying to understand the following: with the amount of haste on gear, +2pT10 (and perhaps even 4pT10 when that comes out) do you find that we are now able to compete with Druid HOTs and cooldown instants of HPriests in terms of sheer healing done over the course of an encounter? Does soft-capping haste + set bonuses etc now make us an attractive healer, rather than helping us overcome our handicaps of WOTLK? I know there are niche roles we can play (like chain heal bouncing off melee) but I'm not sure that another healing class can't do the same equally well. We run with elemental / enh. shamans, so totems/BL are covered.
My initial impression is that we have become considerably stronger with the changes to shamans over the past 4-6 months, but we are still not one of the stronger healing classes. I also realise that this is early days so HEPs of set bonuses, hard modes, etc. are not (and will not be out) for still a period of time.
As a bit of context, I'm raiding in a 25 man normal mode, 10 man hard mode guild looking to replace raiders and make the move to push into some 25 man hard modes. I don't think it's relevant to the topic, but I sit around 2.7k spellpower, 34.5% crit, 850 haste and 400mp5 (excl water shield). I've not had any luck with solaces and I have some mana issues when i push my haste over 950. I'm generally topping healing (or 2nd to a holy priest) with 4-5k hps, which should give you an indication of our overall level of healing...
Thanks for any comments/input you guys can offer. And a huge thanks to the dedicated posters who have helped me so much with gearing/talenting/gemming over the past year.
It highly depends on the type of raid damage you are healing.
In encounters like Iron Council hard mode or Val'Kyr Twins hard mode, where the damage is constant, nothing will beat druids. In encounters where there is a burst aoe (For example Freya Hardmode) Shamans are an excellent choice.
Shamans are very versatile, a couple of trinket swaps can change you from longevity to quick burst healing (Think Scale of Fates). It all depends on the encounter, and you should be prepared to change every fight.
I just got T10 2-piece last night and I have been doing some testing with it to see what its actual behavior is.
Basically from my testing it behaves as a 20% haste buff (655 haste rating) whenever it is up, from riptide cast to the next spell with a cast time completion.
1) It does lower the gcd.
2) It cannot lower the gcd below 1 sec (expected, but I did test it).
3) It effects instant cast spells while the buff is up without consuming the buff (for example if you cast Earth Shield with the buff up, it will lower the gcd, but it will not consume the buff).
I had not been sure if item 1 was going to be the case or not and would have a dramatic effect on its value. Item 3 was a surprise and I hope it is not a bug.
The way I tested item 3 was to take off all my gear except for the 2 pieces of T10 and spam earth shield saving a combatlog. Then I used riptide to keep the Rapid Currents buff up and then spammed Earth Shield while the buff is up. The difference is noticeable in game and obvious. The combatlog confirmed without Rapid Currents up Earth Shield gcd was 1.4-1.5 sec between casts and with Rapid Currents up Earth Shield was ~1.2 sec between casts.
This initially looks like implementing it in shaman_hep is really easy as it is just like any other haste buff while it is up. I do not have a combatlog from a raid yet so I do not have HEP values yet to provide.
I just raided with the 2pc and found it pretty useful. I see it having three ways of impacting on our healing:
1) Passively. Carry on using your riptide exactly as you have been and your next spell has that 600ish haste to it. Don't even think about the buff. Can't be a bad thing.
2) LHW -> HW. Personally I don't use riptide that much. Just as an 'oh sh*t' heal if someone looks in trouble. I'll then instinctively throw a LHW to top them up. With the 2p buff my LHW is 0.8 secs and HW is 1.0. The buff would change my habit here to throwing a HW. (I know a LHW-RT is quicker at putting a good amount of healing on a target than RT-LHW but that's just my panic habit).
3) Not much is happening, RT the tank and keep your haste buff up for the next CH. I found myself doing this a lot. 1.4 sec CHs felt pretty responsive.
Nice bonus that I think adds something interesting to our healing. I now just have the dilemma of 2p with 251 t10 shoulders or 264 festergut ones.
I am curious as if anyone else has been able to pickup a [Trauma]? And what their results with it have been.
I used it on our Festergut kill last night, and all of the 10-man group I am in, and needless to say the proc is very underwhelming, enough infact that I wouldn't even count it toward it's HPS value.
For example, on our 25-Festergut kill, which is obviously a complete spam fight, with people's health sitting fairly low for a good amount of time. So in my estimation, a fairly decent fight for this mace to shine. It did 7148 healing. My guild makes our WoL reports private, so hopefully this is an acceptable alternative.
Our healing make-up was 2x RDruid, 1xDPriest, 1xHPaladin, 1xRShaman. Killing the boss in 4:34.
Anyone else have any thoughts on it?
Once I get a full 25-man raid with the weapon I will parse the data in shaman_HEP and post it in it's respective thread, hopefully that will shed some light on a value we can assign to the proc.
Well for the majority of Festergut, ranged should be spread which would limit the 'people within 10 yards' element of the proc. But given that clumped melee and spread ranged is a pretty common occurance, and like you say Festergut is quite spammy - that is underwhelming, yes.
Well for the majority of Festergut, ranged should be spread which would limit the 'people within 10 yards' element of the proc. But given that clumped melee and spread ranged is a pretty common occurance, and like you say Festergut is quite spammy - that is underwhelming, yes.
I was thinking that would be a reason for the low proc, and low healing done, except for the fact our ranged groups should have been standing between 9-10 yards from one another, so it would have been pushing the proc's radius a bit, but in theory it should have and would have hit a few people. But I am more than sure that a few people would have been standing >10 yards.
The mace proc'd 14 times, and I had a total "active time" of 272.4s. Unless I am completely wrong in my math (which I probably am) it proc'd around every 19.44 seconds.
I am curious as if anyone else has been able to pickup a [Trauma]? And what their results with it have been.
I used it on our Festergut kill last night, and all of the 10-man group I am in, and needless to say the proc is very underwhelming, enough infact that I wouldn't even count it toward it's HPS value.
For example, on our 25-Festergut kill, which is obviously a complete spam fight, with people's health sitting fairly low for a good amount of time. So in my estimation, a fairly decent fight for this mace to shine. It did 7148 healing. My guild makes our WoL reports private, so hopefully this is an acceptable alternative.
Our healing make-up was 2x RDruid, 1xDPriest, 1xHPaladin, 1xRShaman. Killing the boss in 4:34.
Anyone else have any thoughts on it?
Once I get a full 25-man raid with the weapon I will parse the data in shaman_HEP and post it in it's respective thread, hopefully that will shed some light on a value we can assign to the proc.
I wonder if this is an error Zorick. From what you've said:
1. Procc'd 14 times in total
2. Did 7148 total healing
3. Proc heals target+friendlies for 217/s for 6s or does a total of (217*6=1302) base healing.
Now, assuming that on each proc there were 0 friendlies within 10 yards (very unlikely), that means this should have done: 14*1302= 18288 healing*. Accounting for the 55.6% overhealing leaves about 8119 healing done. If we account for Purification (10% increased healing) and ToL (6% increased healing), these numbers match up near perfectly. So...what I'm trying to get at here is that it seems this proc might be bugged--the odds that on all 14 procs no friendly unit was within 10 yards seems incredibly unlikely given that at least 10 people are stacked together for the full duration of the fight. Its been awhile since I did probability calculations, but the odds are below 1% for certain if we assume that you are running with 15 people outside of melee ranged/non-stacked. I would be very interested to see a full report on this to see if we can find out more.
I wonder if this is an error Zorick. From what you've said:
1. Procc'd 14 times in total
2. Did 7148 total healing
3. Proc heals target+friendlies for 217/s for 6s or does a total of (217*6=1302) base healing.
Now, assuming that on each proc there were 0 friendlies within 10 yards (very unlikely), that means this should have done: 14*1302= 18288 healing*. Accounting for the 55.6% overhealing leaves about 8119 healing done. If we account for Purification (10% increased healing) and ToL (6% increased healing), these numbers match up near perfectly. So...what I'm trying to get at here is that it seems this proc might be bugged--the odds that on all 14 procs no friendly unit was within 10 yards seems incredibly unlikely given that at least 10 people are stacked together for the full duration of the fight. Its been awhile since I did probability calculations, but the odds are below 1% for certain if we assume that you are running with 15 people outside of melee ranged/non-stacked. I would be very interested to see a full report on this to see if we can find out more.
My question is does the fountain of light attribute the healing done to the person who it procced on? Similar to LotP being attributed to the attacker, rather than the druid bringing the buff. If this is the case, then the procs we see are only the ones that procced on the shaman, and not those procced on the raid. A full log would be very helpful if anyone can find one.
Here is a log with a shaman wielding it. It appears my hypothesis was incorrect, the proc really is terrible.
So, then, is it safe to assume that [Suffering's End]/[Misery's End] is BiS with current content available unless the blue post regarding changing ICC weapon procs comes to fruition and the proc is worthwhile, or is there another weapon I've overlooked?
As Blizzard will look closerly to the special weapons' procs there is a high chance for Trauma's special effect to be boosted. Unless it is ok as it is now for other healing classes, but I guess the problem is the same for the four healing classes.
As I'm still missing one damn Fragment I can't be sure about it, but Val'Anyr should be better than Misery/Suffering's End thanks to its valuable special capacity. Of course it's harder to drop it rather than the mace from ToC as it ask many more time (I'm well placed to talk about it) to complete it, but for those who already got it, it's prolly the best choice while waiting for Blizzard's analisys on Trauma.
12/28/09, 10:53 AM
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