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08/14/09, 3:37 PM
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#706
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The man is a stock car legend.
Shifft
Draenei Shaman
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Felixalias
Any thoughts on [Totem of Calming Tides]? I know the Ret Paladin version is currently bugged and has no internal cooldown, has anyone tested Calming Tides out?
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I tested it for about half an hour today, it appears to me that the 70% proc rate listed on wowhead is correct, and it has an 8 second ICD.
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08/14/09, 4:56 PM
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#707
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Glass Joe
none
Blood Elf Death Knight
Non-US/EU Server (EU)
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I've got a slightly more complex rotation that I've been using for tank and raid healing.
Basically it goes:
CH, RT, HW, HW
I cast the RT on the same target as the CH, and I rotate through 3 different targets of casting a CH & RT - that means my CH is being cast on a target who's RT is about to expire (I'm glyphed for extra duration on RT). I find this best eats up the 6 second (soon to be 5, as soon as I get 2nd piece of t8) cooldown on Riptide.
Just a straight RT HW HW rotation leaves some time before you can cast RT again, and rather than cast a 3rd HW, I find that casting CH on a target with RT gives it a 25% boost, which makes its direct heal about as powerful as a HW for the same mana cost (and then it jumps to nearby targets, unlike a HW). Casting a CH on a target who's RT is not about to expire wastes the HoT effect of Riptide, which is why I cast it on a target who's RT is about to expire. I like to keep the HoT of Riptide up on 3 targets at once, and in 25 mans, that usually means all 3 tanks. In 10 mans, and some fights on 25 man, I'll throw a RT on a dps, and skip the chain heal when its about to expire if the dps doesn't need it. I do this regardless of my role, although I usually won't run around if one of the tanks is out of range due to the way the fight is done (Iron Council is one of the exceptions that comes to mind where I do run to keep RT on all 3 tanks).
Its what I do with the 2 HW or LHW between my CH (to eat up RT), and refresh of RT on the target that is determined by my assigned role of either tank healing or raid healing. My guild's tanks like that I keep a RT on them even when I'm assigned to healing another tank. Each of the tanks is just getting a buffed CH followed by a RT every 20 seconds or so, so its not much of a distraction away from my duties, but it makes them feel better having another HoT on them.
Given that TW makes the HW or LHW spells take about 1.5 seconds (or less), and RT has a 6 (or 5) second cooldown - that means that everyone is casting 1 non-TW boosted spell as part of their rotation (or just spending 1.5 seconds not casting during their rotation). You do need to refresh Earthshield, or re-drop totems every once in a while, but definitely not every 6 seconds. Using the time to cast a Shock Spell on the boss is an option, but only good if your mana regen allows it. But I prefer to cast CH for this non-TW boosted spell, since it will be an RT boosted CH.
Given that RT gives a 25% boost to the effectiveness of CH, I'm surprised I haven't seen more talk about a rotation using both RT and CH in combination. Am I the only one here that uses a rotation centered around RT & CH?
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08/14/09, 5:39 PM
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#708
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Von Kaiser
Troll Shaman
Borean Tundra
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Originally Posted by gabrielrockman
Basically it goes:
CH, RT, HW, HW
I cast the RT on the same target as the CH, and I rotate through 3 different targets of casting a CH & RT - that means my CH is being cast on a target who's RT is about to expire (I'm glyphed for extra duration on RT). I find this best eats up the 6 second (soon to be 5, as soon as I get 2nd piece of t8) cooldown on Riptide.
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I do try to catch riptides with a chain heal before they expire so I imagine my rotation is subconsciously a little like yours. However, I often just have to let Riptide fall off in favor of chain heal spam during heavy aoe healing requirements lately and it is not the kind of thing that shows up on a wws parse so I don't know how often I actually get the benefit.
I also would worry that this rotation would sometimes make me pick sub-optimal chain heal targets during raidwide aoe phases due to tank positioning on certain fights, but I guess it's the kind of thing you just have to get a feel for.
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08/14/09, 10:13 PM
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#709
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Von Kaiser
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Well before 3.2 there were very few bosses where you could chain off of the tank. Now with the increased range there are some fights where this is viable (Hodir during frozen blows, Mimiron p4, Thorim HM). But seeing as most keep riptide up on the tank already, this doesn't change anything.
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08/16/09, 2:42 PM
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#710
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Piston Honda
Tauren Paladin
Lightbringer
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Originally Posted by gabrielrockman
I've got a slightly more complex rotation that I've been using for tank and raid healing... Am I the only one here that uses a rotation centered around RT & CH?
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Healing in terms of a rotation is not optimal. You always want to choose your next spell and target (and timing) based upon the circumstances of the fight. Blasting a CH on a riptide that is going to expire just because you can isn't always your best option. You're probably spending far too much mana on wasteful/nonefficient casts. In the same sense, you're probably geared too much for mana, and could probably swap in some haste that will make you more easily reactive.
In general, we don't discuss healing rotations specifically because they are not a best practice. You can discuss the viability of keeping track of your riptide HoT so you know the best starting target for an empowered CH, but promoting a set rotation that does such a thing would be poor.
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08/16/09, 8:14 PM
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#711
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Glass Joe
none
Blood Elf Death Knight
Non-US/EU Server (EU)
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Originally Posted by Handyhoof
Healing in terms of a rotation is not optimal. You always want to choose your next spell and target (and timing) based upon the circumstances of the fight. Blasting a CH on a riptide that is going to expire just because you can isn't always your best option. You're probably spending far too much mana on wasteful/nonefficient casts. In the same sense, you're probably geared too much for mana, and could probably swap in some haste that will make you more easily reactive.
In general, we don't discuss healing rotations specifically because they are not a best practice. You can discuss the viability of keeping track of your riptide HoT so you know the best starting target for an empowered CH, but promoting a set rotation that does such a thing would be poor.
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If the Riptide is on a dps, then I usually don't cast a chain heal on the dps right before the RT expires
But if it is on a tank, then I don't consider it a waste to be casting a chain heal on the tank
But I definitely am geared too much for mana regen - I don't even use the mana ride totem too much
I've found the [Soul of the Dead] gives me some really ridiculous mana regen, so I always use it (its crit bonus isn't bad either), but I rotate between 3 other trinkets for my other trinket slot. I've tried to decrease my emphasis on mana regen, and I am saving up emblems to get the t8.5 helm soon (its got no mp5 on it) which will help decrease it
I use my HW and LHW spells between the CH & RT for what my role is for the fight, but I've found it rare that keeping RT on a tank, and then casting CH on him right before the RT expires to be a wasted cast. There are a few times where one of the tanks won't be taking damage, and I'll alter my rotation accordingly, but the majority of the time, there are 2 or 3 targets that need the RT & Chain heal combo.
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08/17/09, 5:33 AM
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#712
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King Hippo
Vallkr
Night Elf Hunter
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Handyhoof
Healing in terms of a rotation is not optimal. You always want to choose your next spell and target (and timing) based upon the circumstances of the fight.
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Finally, someone said it. I have no idea why healers feel the need to brainstorm a rotation. Healing is the most dynamic part of this game. There is no rotation outside of maybe a Druid rolling HoT's on specific targets. If you really base your play style on some garbage RT>LHWx2 (or something similar) rotation, then you are more than likely hurting your raid instead of helping when it matters.
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08/17/09, 8:42 AM
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#713
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Greatest Shaman in the World
Draenei Shaman
Tichondrius
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Yeah I've said similar things in this thread a million times and people still show up trying to show some complex healer rotation or something that never really makes sense. You don't have to have TW active for every LHW you cast. You don't have to Riptide on CD. You don't have to spam CH. You don't have to have 3 riptides rolling around the raid. You don't have to CH targets that have an expiring RT on them. You don't even have to cast HW with TW active. Just cast whatever is necessary at that time.
The only thing I've tried to stay consistent with lately is keeping Spiritual Trance active via a CH every 10 seconds or so - but if there's a big lull in raid damage then once again, I won't toss around CH just because I have to. And as for that Algalon question above - I don't make sure I cast CH -> LHW -> LHW repeatedly until the encounter ends. I was simply stating that my preferred method of keeping TW active on Alg is through CH being that it will hit melee and I run lower SP than normal and find that it's more effective than RT in a stand still situation.
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08/17/09, 9:58 AM
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#714
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Von Kaiser
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I think that few decent healers would actually say they use a specific "cast rotation". Often, it's the easiest way to express what is more like a priority list. Ideally, it would be nice to keep tidal waves up more often than not, but as Sixthy said, when you're healing, you use what is necessary to keep the raid and/or tank alive.
Healing requires a certain amount of flexibility. Most of the time it's absolutely necessary to toss out a heal that may not be the most optimal in terms of throughput (because you're not chaining through a RT target, or you're letting Tidal Waves drop), but it will save the lives of your raid members.
That said, discussing a priority list isn't terrible, since it helps newer healers understand the synergies between certain spells, and how to optimize them (in a perfect setting, of course). But it is true that straight rotations that are throughput focused will rarely work in any raid setting. Even though you may find yourself "topping the meters" with a specific rotation, it is likely that you're letting people die just because you want to use LHW or HW when Tidal Waves is active, or want to Chain Heal only through those targets that have Riptide active.
EDIT: If we want to move away from calling it a "cast rotation", maybe the first step is to remove that language from the Restoration Shaman TTT article.
Last edited by kaellia : 08/17/09 at 10:25 AM.
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08/17/09, 11:05 AM
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#715
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Shaman
Kael'thas (EU)
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As always : preformated rotations are for DPS (and maybe tanks) but definitly not for healers. As said before you may do more harm to your raid than the boss himself by trying to follow rotations. Of course everyone follow some kind of logic while healing, but you can't call that a rotation as rotation means something fixed in stone that you won't ever change.
Using a CH on a person at 100% hp whose RT is going to fade is a net loss. Losing the first hit of the chain to gain 25% effectiveness on the rest of the bounces is a loss in term of mana, HPS and global efficiency for your raid. If the RT is going to fade away on some dps/healer who got 100% of his pv left, just let it fade away, it has done it's job already and cast CH on someone who will really need the first big hit of the CH.
Healing is more based upon reactiveness and 'feeling' than in applying a given rotation. Maybe on some fight you'll get lucky and the rotation will work with the timing of the boss abilities, but most of the time you'll lose a lot of effectiveness while trying to follow a pregiven order of cast.
I know it would be more accurate to ask that in the 'Healing Trinket' topic, but as you're talking about it here : Sixthy and the ones who have given a try to the new totem, how are you feeling about it ? At first glance I didn't wanted to try it and keep with the totem from Leviathan 25. But as the ICD seems to be 8 seconds and the proc rate at 70% I look at it in a different way right now. That means you can keep the buff nearly all time up as long as you cast a CH every 10 seconds or so ? In that case that would make it worth the 25 emblems of triumph and waiting a little longer for buying the first piece of T9.
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08/17/09, 11:19 AM
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#716
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Glass Joe
Draenei Shaman
The Venture Co (EU)
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As long as Chain Heal is a regular part of your healing output, it's basically a flat gain of 234 SP. You can't really ask for a bigger single slot upgrade than that.
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08/17/09, 11:54 AM
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#717
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Nowaa
As long as Chain Heal is a regular part of your healing output, it's basically a flat gain of 234 SP. You can't really ask for a bigger single slot upgrade than that.
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If the up time is around 70% I am not convinced it's an upgrade if ch is 80% of your healing and you use the ch relic that gives 243. I'd say it depends on uptime and your mix of spells. It's certainly good just not always BIS. As always think about the best relic for the situation.
Last edited by Daidalos : 08/17/09 at 12:06 PM.
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08/17/09, 12:19 PM
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#718
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ME
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Originally Posted by kaellia
EDIT: If we want to move away from calling it a "cast rotation", maybe the first step is to remove that language from the Restoration Shaman TTT article.
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The "cast rotation" verbage is utilized as an example of the highest possible HPS that can be obtained through normal game mechanics. There are few situations were you will be able to use this mechanic to its fullest but understanding the maximum is important in understanding how to make adjustments based upon a real raid situation.
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08/17/09, 12:33 PM
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#719
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Glass Joe
Draenei Shaman
The Venture Co (EU)
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Originally Posted by Daidalos
If the up time is around 70% I am not convinced it's an upgrade if ch is 80% of your healing and you use the ch relic that gives 243. I'd say it depends on uptime and your mix of spells. It's certainly good just not always BIS. As always think about the best relic for the situation.
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From my experience so far with the relic, uptime is pretty close to 100% during effective healing time - or as close to 100% as one could reasonably expect. Of course, if there's a break during the encounter, or where where i am forced to move around a bit (Big bang for example) it may drop off for a few seconds, but it's usually back up again in no more than two casts - three maximum. This makes it a lot better than Steamcaller because i can utilize that extra SP for my Earth Shields and HWs as well (or whatever else i choose to cast).
Since my healing breakdown in standard CH heavy fights is about 70-80% CH, with the rest being made up by HW, ES, RT etc, the extra SP applied to all spells makes Calming Tide the superior choice i feel.
Last edited by Nowaa : 08/17/09 at 12:41 PM.
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08/17/09, 1:21 PM
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#720
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Nowaa
From my experience so far with the relic, uptime is pretty close to 100% during effective healing time - or as close to 100% as one could reasonably expect. Of course, if there's a break during the encounter, or where where i am forced to move around a bit (Big bang for example) it may drop off for a few seconds, but it's usually back up again in no more than two casts - three maximum. This makes it a lot better than Steamcaller because i can utilize that extra SP for my Earth Shields and HWs as well (or whatever else i choose to cast).
Since my healing breakdown in standard CH heavy fights is about 70-80% CH, with the rest being made up by HW, ES, RT etc, the extra SP applied to all spells makes Calming Tide the superior choice i feel.
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Could someone post hard data? I've heard conflicting reports on uptime. If uptime is 90+% then it would be a more univeral relic. Assuming a 70% proc rate and you cannot refresh while the buff is up I am doubting the uptime is so high. Can anyone confirm proc rate, internal cool down info, and ability to refresh the buff?
I actually held off from getting this relic when I heard the uptimes people were reporting, if it is nearly 100 it changes the value alot.
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