I'm taking a hard look at where my gear is going in terms of T10 stats and the current BiS lists, and what I'm seeing is a lot of gear I'd be happy to use in elemental spec.....specifically, where is the mp5? I noticed when I started stacking on the haste around T8 level that I was essentially trading crit for haste. I also started having problems with mana regen. I attributed this to a combination of casting more spells during a fight due to haste and also the loss of mana return from crits/water shield procs. Currently I'm running around 775 mp5 with imp totem or wisdom buff, and I find that I could probably shed some mp5 for 25 mans for sure but some 10 man fights don't use much chain heal and don't have as much mana return. I'm kind of leery right now of trading off a hard chunk of mp5 for crit, in most cases.
Where is my mana return supposed to come from? Is the higher crit rating worth that much more mp5? and does anybody have some numbers to indicate how much crit is worth a certain amount of mp5? Or is it assumed that my off-tier pieces are so good by this point that I can do without the mp5 on most of my gear? I don't have such things as Solace, after 18 Jarraxxus kills on 25 I've seen it drop once and it went to a paladin (sigh). I'd really like to have an idea what I'm getting into losing around 100 mp5 off of my current gear by trading up my last two pieces of T9.5, and also what to expect in the future from making gear choices based on spell/crit/haste instead of spell/haste/mp5.
Keep trying to get that Solace. Both heroic and normal mode if possible. The top 4 or 5 regen trinkets will be better options than getting mp5 on gear.
Keep trying to get that Solace. Both heroic and normal mode if possible. The top 4 or 5 regen trinkets will be better options than getting mp5 on gear.
The Insightful Earthsiege Diamond, improved water shield. and improved shields also help with mp5 issues. I seem to be dropping my mana tide at around 50% mana on healing intensive fights like Blood Queen. I generally pop a mana pot in the fight but using my tide early allows me to use it again at the tail end of the fight in case a fellow healer or myself is getting low.
Remember there also might be feral druids in the group that can innervate you if need be.
In terms of mana return with a focus on tank healing, is straight mp5 going to give me more mana back than crit? I am debating whether to opt for haste/crit gear or haste/mp5 gear.
1% crit ~= 46 rating
=> ~4,6 mana per Healing Wave / Riptide cast.
46 rating is 46 item budget
~= 23 mp5
=> 5 HW/RT casts per 5 seconds to make crit superior.
However, LHW and CH have different procrates on IWS.
LHW has a 60% procchance.
~= -40% mana from IWS procs
=> 2,76 mana per crit with LHW.
=> 8,3... LHW casts per 5 seconds to make this superior
I'll skip CH for now as it's use cannot be guaranteed while tankhealing.
Last edited by KnThrak : 05/15/10 at 5:51 AM.
Reason: Some weird formatting got my post :(
SQUEAK.
-- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
Usually I'm healing Valitria25 HM on the ground. As result I run low on mana in 4-5 minutes. It's 2 trees + disc + resto (me) healing the raid. In all situations except skeleton mag aoe and not-interrupted lich bolts I find CH useless and stick to Reptile and LHW, but mana burns so fast. In the end of fight I find myself bagging for innervates
Valiorik
Not-interrupted lich bolts drain mana on heroic mode. For the well being of all casters in the raid they should all be interrupted. I think that's the reason why you have mana problems.
I'm not a shaman healer, so I'm maybe missing something specific about shamans, but I'm the healer lead in my guild. We downed Valithria 25HM with the shamans inside the portals.
Our composition was
2 Holy pal + 2 shamans => portals (1 shaman should be asked to decide when to use bloodlust)
1 disc priest, 1 holy priest, 1 druid => outside
Shaman and paladins have the best throughput on Valithria for this fight. I'm not sure who you send inside the portal, but I can say that 3 healers (in your case the druids and the disc priest) should be enough people outside the portals.
The fight should not take more than 6 minutes (you would certainly be overwhelmed outside) and as said by Adramelech86, you should max interrupt bolts drain for your outside healers and mana dps.
The ideal group composition matters less than the proper execution, especially with the current state of the 20% buff. As stated, it is imperative that you have dedicated DPS interrupting the Risen Archmage casts. If your group follows a priority on DPS then the output of damage on the raid is minimized as well as maximizing the success of the raid.
In terms of importance your raid should focus on DPSing in this priority:
Interrupting Risen Archmage AoE > Killing Blazing Skeletons > Killing Suppressors > Killing Risen Archmage > Killing Blistering Zombies > Killing Gluttonous Abomination > Killing Rot Worms
Focusing DPS will get the mobs down much more quickly than doing it free for all. I have three people on each side that are responsible for getting every single Risen Archmage cast interrupted because of the raidwide damage and slowing debuff. If your raid does this and your 3-4 people taking portals never lose a stack then the fight will end quickly.
I'm trying to convince my GM to let a resto shaman into the raid group for 10 man heroic LK. For the last month our guild has been running a group with a pally/disc healing.
Have any of you guys managed to kill it as resto? If so, what class is the other healer? How do you manage infest and the frostmourne room?
Last edited by kaellia : 05/27/10 at 5:32 PM.
Reason: clarity
Usually I'm healing Valitria25 HM on the ground. As result I run low on mana in 4-5 minutes. It's 2 trees + disc + resto (me) healing the raid. In all situations except skeleton mag aoe and not-interrupted lich bolts I find CH useless and stick to Reptile and LHW, but mana burns so fast. In the end of fight I find myself bagging for innervates
Any tips/tactics for this fight would be nice!
Being a Shaman on Heroic, and Regular Valithria 25 man, or 10 man is the most overpowered thing you can possibly be. I do over 500-600, even 700-800k(sometimes) more than any other healer on that fight.. I use all my regular gear, except I switch on instead of heroic trauma, The Royal Scepter off LK 25, and put on my Blue relic totem that increases spellpower of healing wave. And while going in portals, i use 1 spell.. (other than dropping my totems) Healing Wave... Healing wave is basically the most overpowered spell for that fight because of Ancestral Awakening. By the end of that fight(most of the time) im healing for about 150k+ per healing wave, with an extra boost of around 50-80k Heal from my anscestral awakening. Try it out.
and that 150k+ per healing wave are crits. (but most of the time with the spell your critting anyways. But if you can convince your guild to put 1 resto shaman in the portals who is geared and can keep there stacks up... its GG.We only put 1 resto shaman in the portals, due to having the other on the outside for raid healing. having a priest going in for wings when we call for it, one off the bat when we start, and one when shes at about 80% or above.
and im specced, 0/16/55
I'm trying to convince my GM to let a resto shaman into the raid group for 10 man heroic LK. For the last month our guild has been running a group with a pally/disc healing.
Have any of you guys managed to kill it as resto? If so, what class is the other healer? How do you manage infest and the frostmourne room?
I cannot speak to the Heroic 10-LK as I have not done him, but I am part of the healing group that downs him in 10-man with my guild regularly. Currently consists of myself (Resto Sham), a Tree and a Disc Priest.
Based off my experience, for most of Phase 1 I am somewhat of a decoration who brings nice wooden sticks that provide buffs. I assist in healing the OT on the Shambling Horrors, and drop a CH in the melee when Infest goes off and the Priest hasn't had a chance to bubble them all (bubble is OP as hell for that).
For the transition phases, I find myself helping out the melee group the most as the area that they stand in permits CH to work for maximum effectiveness and LHW being tossed around as needed.
In phase 2 and 3 I have found myself utilized more as the nature of the raid shifting constantly can make it difficult for single target healers sometimes, or perhaps it might just be the group that I work with has gotten used to our healing style (our 10-group has been running largely unchanged for a few months).
So far, I have found myself playing to the strengths of what I have in Phases 2 and 3... Chain healing the melee as they beat up the Valkyr, LHW and Riptide all over as needed. Instant dump on the tank if he takes a hit from the Lich King when he hits Super Powered mode.
I can also say that it is fully possible to dual-heal half of phase 2 and all of phase 3, even after Ankhing.
The biggest thing is that the group has to know a little bit that grouping up for things is alright for some situations.
I was speaking specifically about the heroic version of LK. 10 man normal is far from challenging now; the fight is much harder on heroic.
A shaman can easily 2 heal LK 10 on normal, but I'm less certain that we can do it right now on heroic. As a caveat, I haven't done 10 man heroic with the 20% buff, so I don't know how much easier that has made the encounter.
From the lack of replies, I get a sense that few resto shaman have successfully healed 10 man heroic.
Resto Shaman can 2 heal H LK 10 man with a Disc Priest. It's a bit tougher but it certainly can be done. Double Solace (245/258) are very useful for the fight, P1 can be a bit stressful healing wise otherwise.
I have a question regarding the physical damage from Mark of the Fallen Champion. Last night while attempting Heroic 25 Saurfang we were experiencing, running 3 Holy Pally, Resto Druid, Resto SHaman and Discipline Priest setup, that the Mark of the Fallen Champion at times were ticking for 10k-12k/second. To reduce this damage, as it's physical, would the buff from Inspiration and Ancestral Fortitude double dip? ie: the tank takes 10% reduced damage from having the buff, meaning the damage from the Mark is reduced by 10% and the Mark damage is further reduced by 10% if the Mark affected person has the Inspiration/AF buff for a total of 19% reduced damage.
Just a query. So far though, Shaman have awesome viability on heroic Marrowgar, LDW and Saurfang. I was surprised of our viability on LDW given the high amount of movement required in p2 (to avoid MC'd people, ghosts etc) but it's a lot better than one can expect.
If anyone can try to answer my question, it would be a great help. Herioc Saurfang hits like a truck.
Allonze,
THE time suarfang hits hard is when his bloodpower stacks high that Will increase his atack speed and also the atack speed on THE marked players,
you mentioned that you heal with 2holy paladins,
they should be able to keep there beacons on the first Marks and keep on tank healing!
When the 3th mark comes one of the 2 paladins can heal the 3th mark also when keeping his beacon on the first mark,
by then the boss should be verry low an hp already! I would say use Hero at the start of the fight cus the more dmg is taken the more bloodpower hè gains!
The damage per hit on the marked target is is not related to the damage per melee hit saurfang does, so it does not "double dip" from ancestral healing/inspiration. But you should know that no matter if the mark damage is healable or not, he gains blood power proportional to the damage his abilities deal, which can and should be lowered by inspiration, armor class buffs and absorbs, thereby reducing the number of marks cast and the boss gaining less damage boost through Blood Power.
Not that this is new or unknown, but you should always Bloodlust(or Heroism) around 30% on Saurfang. At 30% he gains Frenzy which makes him attack 30% faster. This not only increases the damage the Tanks take, but also increases the damage the marks take(since the marks only do damage any time the tank is hit). The 30% from Lust essentially negates the 30% from Frenzy.
Oh also, I've found that having the Marks stack in melee makes it considerably easier to heal through their damage. Doing marks like this you can chain heal off your Mark target, giving additional healing to the other marks. In addition you have [Glyph of Holy Light] splashing on other marks and Wild Growth giving some more healing.
(again all very old news, but somehow it came up.)
I'm trying to convince my GM to let a resto shaman into the raid group for 10 man heroic LK. For the last month our guild has been running a group with a pally/disc healing.
Have any of you guys managed to kill it as resto? If so, what class is the other healer? How do you manage infest and the frostmourne room?
I've done it as shaman/disc, but it's honestly way easier on everyone involved to use paladin/disc. With beacon they are just a better tank healer for this fight than a shaman, and they also bring aura mastery, sacrifice and raid wall which can potentially save you a ton of wipes.
Now that the buff is at 20% you can probably 3-heal it anyways so that might be a good option if your healers are struggling.
Edit: If you're determined to do it with shaman/disc and manage to convince your GM to use the weaker option, you handle infest and the frostmourne room the same way as you would with a paladin. Your disc priest can ease up on melee shields in order to help tank heal more and you can clear those infests with chain heal, and frostmourne room you can just chain heal the raid damage as usual.
I'm trying to convince my GM to let a resto shaman into the raid group for 10 man heroic LK. For the last month our guild has been running a group with a pally/disc healing.
Have any of you guys managed to kill it as resto? If so, what class is the other healer? How do you manage infest and the frostmourne room?
Go Enhancement or Elemental. Taking a Resto Shaman over a Holy Pally/Discipline Priest is just silly given that you're just making the fight much harder than it needs to be. The damage requirements, with double Bloodlust (or Heroism) and the 20% ICC damage buff make taking off specs rather than main specs a lot easier and a lot 'less' straining on the raid. Ultimately, it's easier - plain and simple - with the proper healing/tank setup. The only thing that can be changed, with realistic difference, is the damage set up and as long as you have a Spriest/Pally everything about the fight is relatively simple and linear.
My advice: ask to go as Enhancement or Elemental - you wont be getting in the raid as Resto.
The damage per hit on the marked target is is not related to the damage per melee hit saurfang does, so it does not "double dip" from ancestral healing/inspiration. But you should know that no matter if the mark damage is healable or not, he gains blood power proportional to the damage his abilities deal, which can and should be lowered by inspiration, armor class buffs and absorbs, thereby reducing the number of marks cast and the boss gaining less damage boost through Blood Power.
Practice proves different.
Saurfang will gain 1 Blood Power per each ability that deals damage, in normal mode, 10 and 25 versions.
Saurfang will gain 3 Blood Power per each ability that deals damage, in heroic mode, 10 and 25 versions.
The amount of BP cannot be reduced by armor. Blood Boil will give him BP only on the first tick. However, it can be circumvented. Our groups of 10 and 25 ask Paladins to BoP (it's physical damage) the first affected targets, but it's crucial to do this very fast, before the dot ticks once. By doing this, you are basically denying 3 BP per BoP used. It is important to delay the first mark as much as possible. After the first mark is cast, it will give Saurfang an extra 3 BP (on heroic) per swing, this means 3 BP every 2 seconds. Hits that fail to land on the tanks (dodge, parry, miss) will not splash on the marked targets and will not generate any BP.
So, to answer the original question, no, Ancestral Fortitude has absolutely no effect on the BP gain, and no, it will not double dip, because Saurfang does a fixed amount of splash damage per swing, on each marked target. However, it will lower the damage on the tanks and on the marked targets, by 10%, as intended.
As a tip for the fight, I recommend the PVP relic, the highest one you can afford and intensive use of Riptide and LHW. HW is overkill for this fight, because not the tanks are the issue (healed by paladins' Beacons), but the marked targets. And the marked targets are dps/healing classes with a max 30k HP pool. You would have to let a target go lower than 30% to not overheal with a HW crit. But this is just my experience, as an off-spec healer.
Our 10 men group has only 3 healers me (resto shaman), priest (disc/holy) and an offspec feral druid who specs tree for some encounters.
So we did spent some days on lk 10 hard as disc priest+resto shaman with moderate success.
We reached p3 about 3 times with 10 people alive. Thats not a lot, but we failed at a lot of things (offtank in p1 dying to enraged adds, raging spirits killing dds right after spawning). So far Healing is not the top reason we wiped.
Mana is a problem, but the innervates from the feral and mana tide at the transition phases seem to work out (plus hero lockjaw instead of hero trauma, some mp5 gear). Warlock specced Destro for replenishment.
As a tip for the fight, I recommend the PVP relic, the highest one you can afford and intensive use of Riptide and LHW. HW is overkill for this fight, because not the tanks are the issue (healed by paladins' Beacons), but the marked targets. And the marked targets are dps/healing classes with a max 30k HP pool. You would have to let a target go lower than 30% to not overheal with a HW crit. But this is just my experience, as an off-spec healer.
While I'd agree with the LHW analysis for 10 man, for 25 man I bounce CH off of the tanks to heal melee marked targets as well as any healers who become marked throughout the fight (they move into melee when they get the mark). CH can keep up 3-4 marked targets by itself. We run a relatively melee heavy setup so this works for us, however I could see it being far less useful (unless your ranged stacked in groups) in 25's.
For Heroic Saurfang we run 2x Shaman, 3x Druids and 1x Pally. The shamans handle tank healing and melee marks via CH, as Nexdeus pointed out CH can keep up 3-4 marked targets and with two Shaman can handle even more than that. Our paladin takes the first two ranged marks with beacon and any additional ranged marks just run into melee range. This helps for hunters because we can have the Paladin switch his beacon to the them and have the old range target run in. Our druids raid heal (i.e. general damage and mark back up.) and help with range marks who are still not in range of CHs.
It has worked fairly consistently and it is nice to top the meters while getting every ounce of potential out of CH.
Our 10 men group has only 3 healers me (resto shaman), priest (disc/holy) and an offspec feral druid who specs tree for some encounters.
So we did spent some days on lk 10 hard as disc priest+resto shaman with moderate success.
We reached p3 about 3 times with 10 people alive. Thats not a lot, but we failed at a lot of things (offtank in p1 dying to enraged adds, raging spirits killing dds right after spawning). So far Healing is not the top reason we wiped.
Mana is a problem, but the innervates from the feral and mana tide at the transition phases seem to work out (plus hero lockjaw instead of hero trauma, some mp5 gear). Warlock specced Destro for replenishment.
So I guess it is possible with resto/disci.
We've killed LK10hc with resto shaman + disc combo several times, with not too many difficulties. I did have double solaces and a few 277 pieces fitted with int gems (in order to bring me down to 1269 haste). We also had a hymn of hope, innervates, replenishment and my tide. It was used together with hymn of hope at the beginning of both transitions (delayed a bit at the second, because mana tide was still on CD) and the feral innervated me during P1 and somewhere in the middle of P3, since those two are the most mana intensive, moreso if I have to use HW in order to keep the tanks topped. Inside Frostmourne you have to play by your gut to be able to finish your CHs before you have to move out of harm's way again.
As has been said, a paladin healer reduces the amount of tank deaths a bit, I had minor troubles keeping the two of them up in situations where the OT still had adds up on him and in P3 when he was soaking the spirits. Other than that, well, RNG's best shot at us was me being picked 3 times in a row - and the tanks still survived that.
On 25 I had no mana problems whatsoever though, as you can and will use CH a lot more as a spothealer.
Not that this is new or unknown, but you should always Bloodlust(or Heroism) around 30% on Saurfang. At 30% he gains Frenzy which makes him attack 30% faster. This not only increases the damage the Tanks take, but also increases the damage the marks take(since the marks only do damage any time the tank is hit). The 30% from Lust essentially negates the 30% from Frenzy.
It is interesting that you say this, because in Heroic Saurfang 10 we've found that this strategy hurt us. What we've found works best is to use heroism about 5-10 seconds into the fight (just enough time for folks to get their initial debuffs up and the tank to get some threat going) and get absolutely as much DPS as possible on him before the first blood beasts pop up.
The reason for this is that it is the period of time when the DPS can best concentrate on downing the boss. There is no other period during the fight where you can get ~30 seconds of uninterrupted time on the boss and be certain of having all your trinkets available to blow. It also allows you to get down that first set of blood beasts really fast and get right back on the boss.
While it means that we don't have that throughput enhancer for the healers at 30% stage it also means that we have fewer marks up at that point which makes the healing that much easier. The difference in overall DPS was also quite large (the difference between being right on the enrage timer and being comfortably ahead of the timer).
Now if someone could just get both our tanks to concentrate for the 5 minutes this fight takes, we'd be done with it already.
05/07/10, 7:27 PM
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