I never used the 4 piece T7. I always valued more more MORE haste over a simple 5% boost to chain heal. In a melee heavy raid, I need to be hitting as many targets as possible and that means I need to be casting as many chains as possible. I never valued the 4 Piece T7 but I look forward to 4 Piece T8 like Christmas morning.
What do you think, is it worth losing the 4% mana for my group every 5min?
I'd be cautios if you try to evaluate the value of the HS-Glyph based on Healing done. It is definitely a viable alternative to Healing Wave, Lesser Healing Wave, Mana Tide or Water Mastery, but you can't judge the healing done by HST as important as "active" healing done. I didn't run into a situation until now where 4% mana to my group would have spelled the difference between kill and wipe (no hard modes done yet).
Has anyone tried the Riptide-Glyph and allowed himself some time to adjust the Healing to a more Riptide-Chainheal-centered style?
I never used the 4 piece T7. I always valued more more MORE haste over a simple 5% boost to chain heal. In a melee heavy raid, I need to be hitting as many targets as possible and that means I need to be casting as many chains as possible. I never valued the 4 Piece T7 but I look forward to 4 Piece T8 like Christmas morning.
I took a similar approach with you in regards to haste. Once I hit a suitable +SP and mp5 level, I started stacking haste as much as I could. When I saw the 4pc T8 bonus for the first time, my guild was laughing at me for a good hour because they never heard anyone get so excited about healing. I'm still just as excited about it as you seem to be (substitute Christmas morning for first night of Chanukah ;p), but as some have said above, I don't think I'll be dropping my 4pc T7 until I get that 4th piece of T8. Remember also that CH loses potency with each bounce. I've seen certain times like Frost Blasts at KT or Tantrum+Light Bomb at XT-002 where getting that little bit of extra juice out of the 3rd or 4th bounce of CH has made the difference when you have multiple melee who are dangerously low.
I can't really understand why you wouldn't go for your 4pc T7 bonus, though. Three of the five T7 pieces (head/chest/legs) are perfectly itemized with SP/Haste/MP5. [Winter Spectacle Gloves] are such a strong item that it almost certainly would want to be your off-set piece. From that point, I would think 5% efficacy on both your HW and CH and a Red socket with 4 INT socket bonus would outweigh any amount of haste from shoulders, even [Council Chamber Epaulets].
The TTT is also overdue for an update on talent specs. Here is a draft of the new entry. Feed back is appreciated as well as any other builds that would be worth including.
===========================================
Either of these specs is viable for end-game healing in 25-man raids.
The advantage to this spec is the 3/3 in Healing Way, meaning you have to cast Healing Wave only once on a target for subsequent heals to get the +18% bonus.
The disadvantage is you don't have any points in Elemental Weapons. Elemental Weapons boosts the bonus healing of Earthliving Weapon by up to 30% (another +45 spellpower). Instead of +150 healing spellpower, you get +195. The talent does not increase the healing done by the HoT when Earthliving procs. The talent also does not scale well as your gear improves. For example, at +2000 spellpower, the talent increases your spell power by 2.25%. At +2500 spellpower, the talent increases it by 1.8%.
Option #2: 0-15-56
The advantage is you have 2/3 Elemental Weapons and get another +30 spell power.
The disadvantage is that you may have to cast Healing Wave on a target 3 or more times for subsequent heals to get the +18% bonus to healing. However, in a 25-man raid, shamans generally do little single-target healing.
=======================================================================
I've seen other specs with no points in Healing Way or Ancestral Healing (+25% to armor after a crit). However, no points in Healing Way gimps your ability to single-target heal because you never get the +18% boost. By having at least one point, you are a viable single-target healer should the need arise. I see no reason not to put 3/3 into Ancestral Healing. Our heals often hit the tanks, providing an important buff. I could see, under certain circumstances, not having 3/3 in Healing Focus.
Thanks for the update, Skyhoof. Three things I noticed:
1. The 2nd build you linked gives a 0/15/56 build with 2/3 Elemental Weapons and 1/3 Healing Way. I'm not sure if you meant 0/16/55 with 3/3 EW and 0/3 HW, which would make the second part of your description invalid, or if this is the build you intended, in which case you end up with +30 healing instead of +45.
2. I would agree that these are the two standard builds to choose between for 25 man raiding. A possible third build that I have seen some people running drops Tidal Force and 2/2 Improved Earth Shield and for 3 points there to pick up something else (generally filling out both Healing Way and Elemental Weapons). However, I don't see too many people running around with those builds unless they run with many (3+) resto shaman. In any case, it's an advanced build that probably shouldn't be recommended to someone who is just learning about the resto shaman.
3. Many of us chose to skip Healing Focus in 3.0 content, but Ulduar has enough raidwide pushback that this talent has increased in value. (I'm looking at Mimiron in particular, but pushback is at least a minor annoyance on most encounters). Depending on how you want to structure this section, it may be worth advising TTT readers that pushback is more of a concern in T8 content.
As an aside, I was wondering if the TTT should include a sub-section on talent/glyph synergy aimed at new resto shaman (i.e. LHW glyph loses value with 3/3 Healing Way, etc.) At least on my server, there are resto shaman running around with Glyphs that don't make much sense with their talent choices. If this information could be of use to the community, I'll write up a rough draft with some of the data and analysis the community has collected.
1. The 2nd build you linked gives a 0/15/56 build with 2/3 Elemental Weapons and 1/3 Healing Way. I'm not sure if you meant 0/16/55 with 3/3 EW and 0/3 HW, which would make the second part of your description invalide, or if this is the build you intended, in which case you end up with +30 healing instead of +45.
With 2/3 Elemental Weapons and 1/3 Healing Way you are still able to put up Healing Way, it just takes more casts. I believe it is an alternative to +15 SP, but even with 1/3 HW putting up and maintaining Healing Way can be tricky:
chance to not procc Healing Way per cast: 66%
chance to not having procced Healing Way after 4 casts: 18,97%
chance to not having procced Healing Way after 6 casts: 8,27%
/e: Sorry Phil, I think I misunderstood your first point. So yes, basically a 3/3 Elemental Weapons 0/3 Healing Way Build for a raid-oriented specc should be added, in priority before said build of compromise.
I wasn't contesting that Healing Way could be applied without the full 3/3. I mentioned that either Skyhoof meant 3/3 EW and 0/0 HW (in which case the Healing Way section wasn't needed) or 2/3 EW and 1/3 HW, in which case the 2nd part was mostly correct (although you're still not guaranteed to get Healing Way after 3 casts (30.1% chance) in the same way that running UD Strat 100 times won't guarantee you the Baron Mount) but the healing bonus drops from +45 to +30. I was just asking for clarification on which she meant.
[Edit] I was formulating my post while the post above mine was being edited; I'm leaving in the above section just for clarification purposes.
Personally, I've always considered Healing Way to be an all-or-nothing talent. If I'm healing the tank consistently enough that I find Healing Way valuable, I want to be sure that the buff has a very high uptime. In 10-mans, where raid composition could conceivably push us into mainly tank healing, the argument for dropping to 1/3 or 2/3 is actually stronger, as we are much more likely to be casting the ~4/6 HWs in 15s needed to ensure ~90% uptime. If, on the other hand, we are assigned to a combination of raid healing + spot healing tank X -- probably our most common healing assignment in 25 mans -- then we generally won't be casting more than 1-2 HWs on tank X in any given 15s time frame. In this case, anything less than 3/3 Healing Way makes for inconsistent Healing Waves.
Perhaps I'm being a bit too closed-minded, but since you stated that those builds were for 25-man raiding... I think by the time someone's ready for 25-man raiding (ie. exhausted a majority of upgrade opportunities from heroics/emblems/10-mans), they should already be beyond the point where Elemental Weapons is inefficient for a Resto shaman. It's certainly viable and useful for the starting Resto who's gearing up in heroics, but then again, that's not the point being discussed.
Other than what Philondra brought up, looks pretty solid. On the topic of glyphs, I'm not sure how much in detail you'd really need to go. I still feel that the third glyph (#1/#2 being Earth Shield and Chain Heal) isn't anything that can be pinned down exactly and will vary between the individual shaman's playstyle, their typical guild/raid composition, and the nature of the encounter they're doing. I think it might be best to keep it simple, just a short list of each glyph, it's value (core/good/garbage), and what type of situation it's most useful in with perhaps a small note on the theorycraft justifying its usefulness. I might take a shot at writing up something tomorrow while I'm sitting bored in class, Philondra would probably do a better job of it than I would though.
(edit) I think I kinda mis-read what Philondra was saying after taking a look at the TTT thread. Ugh, are people really combining Glyph of LHW and Healing Way? I can't say I've seen that myself, but if people are really doing that, perhaps it'd be worthwhile.
Actually, I did mean to link a hybrid build with 1/3 Healing Way and 2/3 Elemental Weapons. It was the text that I neglected to adjust to match that build. But upon further reflection, even that hybrid build is problematic. But I don't think 0/3 Healing Way is the answer.
Having 3/3 Elemental Weapons is most advantageous to a shaman who is just starting out. However, that means they are most likely healing a lot of 5-man and 10-man content where 3/3 Healing Way is vital. It would make more sense for a beginning shaman to drop Healing Focus. Perhaps we should recommend this build to those just starting out: 0-16-55
The only talent lacking in this spec is 3/3 Elemental Weapons, which provides another +45 spellpower. Instead of +150 healing spellpower, you get +195. The talent does not increase the healing done by the HoT when Earthliving procs. The talent also does not scale well as your gear improves. For example, at +2000 spellpower, the talent increases your spell power by 2.25%. At +2500 spellpower, the talent increases it by 1.8%.
The advantage is you have 3/3 Elemental Weapons and get another +45 spell power.
The disadvantage is that you have no points in Healing Focus, which reduces spell pushback by 70%. However, there are few fights before Ulduar where spell pushback is an issue.
16/55 with 0/3 healing way and 3/3 healing focus is fine for more than "starting out." It's the spec I use now and will be using for a while - there just aren't too many circumstances where healing way is all that necessary - and if it ever comes to the point of needing it, dual spec is a click away.
16/55 is a great raiding build for both beginners and Ulduar progression - especially with the large amount of push back found on certain fights.
I always thought that the 2 points in Imp Earth Shield were optional. This build allows for 3/3 elemental weapons, plus 2/3 healing way which should provide excellent uptime. I usually focus the MT when raid healing, even as I'm assigned to the raid which makes it easy to refresh when its down. Are those 2 extra charges all that valuable or is it the 10% more what has convinced the group it is a necessary talent? Is it 10% on top of other talents and the glyph?
I always thought that the 2 points in Imp Earth Shield were optional. This build allows for 3/3 elemental weapons, plus 2/3 healing way which should provide excellent uptime. I usually focus the MT when raid healing, even as I'm assigned to the raid which makes it easy to refresh when its down. Are those 2 extra charges all that valuable or is it the 10% more what has convinced the group it is a necessary talent? Is it 10% on top of other talents and the glyph?
I always pick up imp ES. I just find having 2 more charges plus the nice additional healing extremely valuable. I wouldn't say its absolutely necessary, For example if the tank doesn't take alot of fast hits it may take awhile for ES to be used up, and if you are moving alot you can cast an ES and not really affect your overall healing output. The 10% is combined with imp shields talent but otherwise yes its on top of talents like purification and the ES glyph. I'd say its the 2 additional charges more so than the additional healing though.
On the other hand I would agree that TC-wise not picking up imp ES and picking up Ele Weapons would be higher overall throughput in the majority of circumstances. Mathematically an addition 200-300 per earth shield charge can easily be made up by casting 1-2 chain heals if you are not losing casts due to refreshing ES.
Going by the math, having 3/3 elemental weapons instead of 3/3 Healing Way could pay for itself after casting as few as 11 chain heals (if all of them hit 4 targets). I'm still leary of not having the talent but I do have to admit there's a solid theorycrafting reason to drop it if you're trying to maximize HPS. I'm going to have to look at my combat log from Ulduar more closely to see just how often I cast Healing Wave. However, even when I cast HW, it probably wasn't on the same target twice. I would usually Chain Heal melee or another clump of players and then toss HW on the caster or hunter standing by themselves.
4 hits = 11 times
3 hits = 12 times
2 hits = 14 times
1 hit = 21 times
Chain Heal
Spell Power
1 hit
2 hits
3 hits
4 hits
2500
7,174
10,761
12,554
13,451
2545
7,258
10,887
12,701
13,608
Difference
84
126
147
157
Healing Wave with 2500 spell power: 9,549
Healing Wave with 2500 spell power and Healing Way: 11,268
Difference: 1,1719
I personally find healing way useful since I do main tank healing in 10 mans but in 25 mans it would make more sense to have elemental weapons instead of healing way. I need like quaduple spec or something so I can have a spec for each role.
Going by the math, having 3/3 elemental weapons instead of 3/3 Healing Way could pay for itself after casting as few as 11 chain heals (if all of them hit 4 targets). I'm still leary of not having the talent but I do have to admit there's a solid theorycrafting reason to drop it if you're trying to maximize HPS. I'm going to have to look at my combat log from Ulduar more closely to see just how often I cast Healing Wave. However, even when I cast HW, it probably wasn't on the same target twice. I would usually Chain Heal melee or another clump of players and then toss HW on the caster or hunter standing by themselves.
4 hits = 11 times
3 hits = 12 times
2 hits = 14 times
1 hit = 21 times
Chain Heal
Spell Power
1 hit
2 hits
3 hits
4 hits
2500
7,174
10,761
12,554
13,451
2545
7,258
10,887
12,701
13,608
Difference
84
126
147
157
Healing Wave with 2500 spell power: 9,549
Healing Wave with 2500 spell power and Healing Way: 11,268
Difference: 1,1719
Obviously it's all going to be situational. Personally, I'm just never healing the tank as my sole role. I spot heal all tanks, but in that situation it's not really for HPS reasons - I keep my ES on the MT at all times and I'll spot the MT and any OT's consistently with LHW's. "But LHW isn't effective blah blah blah."
The purpose is to keep Ancestral Healing procced on my tanks as much as possible. The most efficient way to do that is through quick LHW's with tidal waves up - everything in between is spot LHW's on the raid or CH spam.
It's so rare that I get two healing waves off on the same target within 15 seconds that it's an absolute waste of 3 talent points. I'd rather have the static 45 spellpower.
It seems that the vast majority of posters in this thread are using a standard template (0/13/55 + 3) and the main points of contention seem to be 3/3 EW vs. 3/3 HWay, with the correct answer (unless both of your specs are Raid Resto) depending on how often you find yourself using Healing Wave on the same target. Skyhoof's math provides an excellent reference point for Resto Shaman to use when analyzing their own WWS reports to determine which talent is better for them and their situation. I hope that you include it in the TTT!
As an aside, after the generic 0/13/55 talent point allocation, we are left with several unexciting choices for our final three points if we want to maximize throughput: 3/3 HWay, 3/3 EW and (arguably) 3/5 Nature's Guardian - not that I'm seriously suggesting picking up Nature's Guardian for PvE content. As inefficient as 3/3 EW may be, it's the only option that makes sense if you are not fully utilizing HWay.
I'm currently working on a slightly more comprehensive model for EW vs. HWay (taking into account spells other than CH as well as the increased heals from Ancestral Awakening, but if anything I think this will make HWay look even worse; I'll post the model for community criticism once I've got it worked out.
The purpose is to keep Ancestral Healing procced on my tanks as much as possible. The most efficient way to do that is through quick LHW's with tidal waves up - everything in between is spot LHW's on the raid or CH spam.
I don't see how tidal waves would help you keep ancestral healing up unless you are moving between heals. I suppose there is the rare condition of tidal waves allowing you land a heal before it AH wears off when a non-tidal waved LHW would have landed a little too late. I really only see the first condition as being note worthy.
Originally Posted by Sixthy
Faster, etc.
I'm not saying I purposely get TW up and active just to spot AH procs on the tanks with LHW - it just simply works out that it's pretty much constantly up from CH.
While a LHW will land about .4s faster I don't really see that making much of a difference in having AH up.
Ya I can see that happening.
I usually find myself mixing the different heals more often in 10 mans than 25s. I am mostly chain heal bot in 25s but I def find healing 10 mans more fun.
I don't see how tidal waves would help you keep ancestral healing up unless you are moving between heals.
Faster, etc.
I'm not saying I purposely get TW up and active just to spot AH procs on the tanks with LHW - it just simply works out that it's pretty much constantly up from CH.
I'm curious how useful everybody finds the Riptide HoT. There are a lot of people saying it's useless, but I generally find that riptide is roughly 20-25% of my total healing and the HoT is the majority of that. This surprised me at first, because I mostly use Riptide for the TW buff, so the hot healing is more or less pure bonus. The hot doesn't save anybody, but it does do a fairly effective job at topping people off. Is anybody else seeing numbers like this, or is it just my healing mix?
I've been resto for all of my WotLK raiding experience, and it seems in most fights shaman heals are there for the "Oh crap" moments, that is unless you're using a healing wave tank healing spec. Almost every time i look at my damage meter, even with multiple "oh crap" moments, my RT is almost without exception my #2 heal, CH being first with around 35%, then RT with around 22-27%, usually followed by either ES or LHW depending on which fight. The fact that my RT HoT is inevitably consumed by a chain heal leads me to this conclusion, RT is indeed a very nice spell. I would love to hear any discussion on this, because i have heard it argued vehemently both ways.
By the way, thanks to all of you who post on here, its improved my heals around 10% so far=D
So i have been wondering for a while now whether or not my NEVER casting healing wave is actually lowering my healing potential. I am 0/16/55 resto who didnt spec into Healing way or imp healing wave, i instead opted for the 3 from heal way to go into imp shields for the mana and extra ES heals. In raids im pretty much a riptide/ES and ancestral healing shammy until the stuff hits the fan, i usually pull around 26-30% with 6 healers in 25 naxx...
Is there any reason other than being main tank healer that i should put those points in? If so please explain. feel free to armory my toon and see if theres anything you suggest i might change to be more effective. Thanks alot everyone=)
I guess I will always include 3/3 Healing way in my build. I'm very tempted to try out a 1/3 Healing way build, but just that 66% chance of NOT applying the buff on my target scares me away, especially as in my 25 man raid I do heal a single target from time to time, maybe more than many 25 man raiding resto shamans. Seeing the math posted above, I'm pretty sure I'd do more healing with a 3/3 EW build, but having the flexibiliy to switch to a RT/HW/HW or CH/HW/HW rotation just suits my need better.
Pro 3/3 HW arguments:
-I was a dedicated LHW glyph + ES single target healer pre 3.1. But now that healing way has lost it stacks and improved watershield won't proc as often for LHW I switched back to HW. HPS numbers clearly are in favor of HW for my single target healing duties.
-The potential of overhealing with HW is still there, but due to changes to AA somewhat not as bad as it was.
-Most of the time my focus target gets my earthshield, and I've set NeedtoKnow to show Healing way duration on focus. Like that I can support tank healers with HW even when assigned to raid healing with decent Healing way uptime for my heals.
-If I do single target healing, mana isn't an issue in my group and a serious amount of raid damage is present, healing wave glyph is very nice for your tank healing job while keeping yourself at 100% health nearly all the time.
-LHW is no longer my spell of choice for sustained single target healing but rather for ultra-fast spot healing (Razorscale Fireballs, slag pot victims etc.).
If I wouldn't play elemental from time to time I'd even consider having a 3/3 EW spec for raid healing and 3/3 HW as secondary spec, for pure min/max reasons. But for now, elemental is too much fun and the difference between the two specs seems to be too small.
I find that I often will CH a tank group if needed to proc AH for the armor bonus. This, of course, depends greatly on the group layout and composition.
The 3/3 HW talent is great for those moments of sheer terror - at which point I'll RT - (NS - TF - HW) - HW to get a tank back to full as quickly as possible. With the high amounts of HP tanks have nowadays, it's rare that even that series of spam will fully top off a tank before he takes another hit.
Re: Nevets - I honestly hadn't realized that shamans use HW or LHW. I guess if you are geared for it than it could potentially be good. Even a fight like Patchwerk, CH is better imo since I can hit all 3 tanks instead of spamming one. I don't understand why shamans would be put on single target healing with something as amazing as CH available. My shaman is geared and spec'd for maximizing chain heal. My raid group uses Holy Pallies and Disc / Holy priests for main tank healing. I find that if I need to toss them a heal I do CH since it will jump to the melee and assist with that as well.
The way I gem / gear is probably considered wrong but... I gem for haste. Mana regen / Spell Power are important but they tend to come naturally on most of our gear. I ignore crit unless it comes on a piece of gear with haste. I find more chain heals > bigger chain heals for EFFECTIVE healing.
Since I don't cast HW or LHW (I do just not any significant number) I've dropped talents that exclusively effect those spells. Healing Way and Ancestral Awakening to be specific. I've also chosen to pickup Imp. Reincarnation & a pt into Healing Grace over Ancestral Healing. I think the Imp. Reincarn (especially now while learning Ulduar) is a bit help over an armor increase that is largely unused (again, I'm NOT main tank healing). This frees up 6 pts I put into Enhancement for Enhancing Totems & Elemental Weapons.
Re: Nevets - I honestly hadn't realized that shamans use HW or LHW. I guess if you are geared for it than it could potentially be good. Even a fight like Patchwerk, CH is better imo since I can hit all 3 tanks instead of spamming one. I don't understand why shamans would be put on single target healing with something as amazing as CH available. My shaman is geared and spec'd for maximizing chain heal. My raid group uses Holy Pallies and Disc / Holy priests for main tank healing. I find that if I need to toss them a heal I do CH since it will jump to the melee and assist with that as well.
The way I gem / gear is probably considered wrong but... I gem for haste. Mana regen / Spell Power are important but they tend to come naturally on most of our gear. I ignore crit unless it comes on a piece of gear with haste. I find more chain heals > bigger chain heals for EFFECTIVE healing.
Since I don't cast HW or LHW (I do just not any significant number) I've dropped talents that exclusively effect those spells. Healing Way and Ancestral Awakening to be specific. I've also chosen to pickup Imp. Reincarnation & a pt into Healing Grace over Ancestral Healing. I think the Imp. Reincarn (especially now while learning Ulduar) is a bit help over an armor increase that is largely unused (again, I'm NOT main tank healing). This frees up 6 pts I put into Enhancement for Enhancing Totems & Elemental Weapons.
We've established that dropping Healing Way is acceptable. The main reason is not that we don't cast Healing Wave but rather that when we do cast Healing Wave it's not likely to be on the same target repeatedly. However, Healing Wave remains an important spell and Ancestral Awakening is an important talent that complements it nicely. In addition, AA also procs off Riptide. Healing in Wrath is not about mashing the Chain Heal button and getting off as many casts as possible. It's about using a variety of healing techniques on the right player at the right time. You might want to consider putting your 3 points in Enhancing Totems into AA or taking your 2 points in Improved Reincarnation and 1 point in Healing Grace and putting them in AA.
04/21/09, 5:37 PM
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