[Resto] Best Practices: PvE Healing Discussion - Page 68

Bloch · 11/17/09, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by orion121

You missed 2 things in that equation.

1. Last I checked resistance buffs averaged out to 20%.

2. You can't include resisted amounts when calculating the amount of healing given to the boss because any amount resisted will be taken on the next tic of leeching swarm. That said nature resistance will mitigate damage taken from leeching swarm and is an effective tool for keeping your raid alive, however the boss will receive as much healing as your raid allows him in p3, resistance only serves to lessen the healing required.

To elaborate, 2 players with 750 HP, one with NRT, one without

T   NRT     Non-NRT
0s 750     750
1s 500     550 
2s 250     350
3s 0       150 
4s -250    -50
5s -500    -250

As you can see, player 2 required half as much HP to stay alive to the 5s mark, but both players gave up 750 HP before dying. As is the nature of the fight, any heal received will be full consumed, eventually, thereby rendering NRT moot with regard to mitigating AA healing to boss.

@Darament: Yes, it is worth leaving the raid and respec'ing once you get to 25H Anubarak because the difficulty level is miles ahead of any other fight currently available in this expansion. This is largely due to the sheer variation in mechanics that apply to all character roles over the course of the fight.

There is a discussion of the effects of player resistances on boss healing here:

ThinkTank: [General]Nature Resist for Anub'arak ToGC25

As you can see from the log data provided there, having resistances will lessen the healing Anub receives during P3.

I do not disagree with you that AA isn't an ideal talent for the encounter. However, I do believe the actual net cost to the raid is significantly less than what has been suggested.

Skyhoof · 11/17/09, 5:12 PM

Finally got around to updating the profession section of the TTT. I owe many thanks to Migosha, who sent me a PM with some very helpful information and also motivated me to tackle that section. I could use the help of an alchemist in figuring out how much Mixology boosts the effects of the three elixirs listed.

As always, your feedback is appreciated before I post this in the TTT.

You can raid as a resto shaman with any two professions. However, many players enjoy using professions to maximize their healing, DPS and tanking. The comparisons below are done with spell power and haste, although many professions can also be used to boost crit and mp5.

For the resto shaman, Alchemy has always been my favorite profession, mainly due to the extra mana it can provide. In addition, you can gain 47 spellpower on fights where mana is not an issue or extra haste if using elixirs. I also think that mana is going to be more of an issue in Cataclysm.

Alchemy > Jewelcrafting > Blacksmithing > Tailoring > Enchanting/Inscription/Leatherworking > Engineering > Herbalism/Mining/Skinning

Alchemy doubles the duration of flasks and elixirs. The trinket [Mercurial Alchemist Stone] gives a 40% bonus to potions. Alchemists can also make [Flask of the North], a reusable flask that provides 47 spellpower. Alchemists also have a passive ability called Mixology, which provides the following boost to regular flasks and elixirs:
- Flask of Pure Mojo = 65 mp5 (+20 mp5)
- Flask of the Frost Wyrm = 172 SP (+47)
- Spellpower Elixir = ?
- Elixir of Lightning Speed = ?
- Elixir of Mighty Mageblood = ?
Jewelcrafting allows you to use 3 gems available only to jewelcrafters with more powerful stats. [Quick Dragon's Eye] instead of [Quick King's Amber], and [Item not found!] instead of [Runed Cardinal Ruby]. You can an extra 48 spell power or 42 haste rating. Plus, you have the flexibility to boost other stats if the game changes or for an off-spec or PVP. Most people find JC easier and less expensive to level than Blacksmithing.
Blacksmithing gives you 2 extra gem sockets. You would gain 46 spell power or 40 haste rating with epic gems. Plus, like JC, you have the flexibility to boost other stats as well for off-spec or PVP gear.
Tailors can put special enchants on their cloaks that do not stack with other enchants. In both cases, the enchants have a 45-second cooldown and a high chance to proc (25% or more).
Lightweave Embroidery If it procs once per minute, it would equal 73.75 spellpower.
Darkglow Embroidery If it procs once per minute, it would equal 44 mp5
Enchanting gives you an extra 46 spell power (23 spell power per ring).
Inscription gives you a shoulder enchant with an extra 46 spell power.
Leatherworking gives an extra 46 spell power with a bracer enchant.
Engineering is mainly considered a PVP or fun profession. However, some of its abilities are useful in raids
Herbalism, Mining, Skinning: Gathering professions do not provide the same increases as crafting professions. However at Blizzcon, the developers did mention making gathering professions more attractive. However, most players do not expect gathering professions to ever offer as many benefits as the harder-to-level crafting professions.

• Jessamy · 11/17/09, 6:31 PM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

Alchemy doubles the duration of flasks and elixirs. The trinket [Mercurial Alchemist Stone] gives a 40% bonus to potions. Alchemists can also make [Flask of the North], a reusable flask that provides 47 spellpower. Alchemists also have a passive ability called Mixology, which provides the following boost to regular flasks and elixirs:

Flask of Pure Mojo = 65 mp5 (+20 mp5)
Flask of the Frost Wyrm = 172 SP (+47)
Spellpower Elixir = ?
Elixir of Lightning Speed = ?
Elixir of Mighty Mageblood = ?

Flask of the North counts as a flask (counts as both Guardian and Battle elixirs), so you can't stack that on top of your real flask. It was introduced to the game as a pvp buff to alchemists, since all other professions' bonuses apply in arena and alchemists' mixology benefit didn't. In effect, Flask of the North is a separate flask that is just the added benefit you normally get from mixology.

Maltese beat me, but I confirm numbers for SP, haste, and mp5 elixirs. In addition (not including 10% talent bonus),

Elixir of Mighty Thoughts = 65 INT (+20)
Flask of Distilled Wisdom = 85 INT (+20)

Another benefit to alchemy that I enjoy is the [Crazy Alchemist's Potion]. It provides the same mana as a runic mana pot (and I use it when I would use a mana pot), but with other random benefits. You can look through the shaman_hep reports I have posted in that thread to see the sorts of things it procs. Sometimes it will be spell power or haste, very often it will be a runic or super mana or health pot.

Maltese · 11/17/09, 7:04 PM

Spellpower Elixir = 81SP (+23SP)
Elixir of Lightning Speed = 65 (+20 Haste)
Elixir of Mighty Mageblood = 40 (+10 MP5)

scrusi · 11/18/09, 3:40 AM

Can't say I agree with your order of professions, at least not at reasonably high level raiding. I do have Alchemy / Jewelcrafting but I'm pretty sure I should have Blacksmithing instead of Alchemy. The reason is simply that haste is a much better stat than spellpower and there's no haste flask to boost while you can easily put haste gems into the BS sockets. With my current HEP values (ymmv) BS gives me 72 HEP as opposed to Alchemy's 47. I don't think there's a reason to use the Alchemist's Stone if you are into decent raiding - and if you aren't you won't be constantly flasked anyway.

Additionally I'm not sure if the Tailoring position is correct. At a conservative 1.5 HEP for haste, lightweave is only a 39.25 HEP increase over the 23 haste enchant - less than Enchanting/Inscription/Leatherworking. (provided your 73.75 number is correct)

Hamano · 11/18/09, 4:10 AM

Alchemy is probably one of the, if not the best raiding profession for progression content.

It has arguably less HEP stats then blacksmitting. Basicly trading 20 int for 20 haste. But Crazy Alchemy Potion is amazing, I basicly use it as a second healthstone, which happens to give mana also. As someone else mentioned the proc is very random, but whener you proc a Rejuvenation potion or Mana potion it is very good.

Survivability and longevity are (During progression) in my opinion more important then the difference in output between 20 int and 20 haste.

Dastey · 11/18/09, 4:54 AM

Tier 10 (264) compared to Tier 9 (245)
+70int (~12,6 SP and ~38mp5)
+107SP
210 crit (4,57%)
56 haste (1,7%)
-72mp5

Intellect calculated in:
120SP
4,57% crit
1,7% haste
-34mp5

That is some good solid tier buffs imo

scrusi · 11/18/09, 6:15 AM

Originally Posted by Hamano

Alchemy is probably one of the, if not the best raiding profession for progression content.

It has arguably less HEP stats then blacksmitting. Basicly trading 20 int for 20 haste. But Crazy Alchemy Potion is amazing, I basicly use it as a second healthstone, which happens to give mana also. As someone else mentioned the proc is very random, but whener you proc a Rejuvenation potion or Mana potion it is very good.

Survivability and longevity are (During progression) in my opinion more important then the difference in output between 20 int and 20 haste.

Considering that you are a bit ahead of me in progression (still working on Anub 25H here), I find it odd that you would have longevity issues at all. The fights in which I even have to use a mana potion are far and in between and hardly ever coincide with my need for health. Getting the "double proc" from the crazy pots is obviously good in theory, but barring a rebirth or ankh it has never been necessary for me (and shouldn't be, since it is so random.) This is all gearing for haste, using frost wyrm and manta rays so we're hardly talking about mana regeneration gear here.

I suppose if you need both a second Healthstone and additional mana in a fight (which is incredibly rare in my experience - maybe you are running with fewer healers?) these are slightly better than Powerful Rejuvenation Potions. I'll take haste over int any day though. (And how do you come up with the number? The 2 BS sockets are 40 haste, alchemy & wisdom flask is 20 int. Clearly mixology is better used with frost wyrm or even pure mojo?)

Hamano · 11/18/09, 7:21 AM

I'm using int and haste elixirs instead of spellpower flask.

And yes, our mana is currently fine, and I have to admit i have not used Crazy Alchemist Potions alot in ToGC so far. My post was more aimed at the next tier (Icecrown). On fights like Freya+3 or Firefighter, these potions have been invaluable for me. Like you said (and i won't deny) mana at the moment is ridiculous, but I doubt it will be the same in Icecrown, but we'll have to see.

tl;dr I think the practical gain of alchemy is higher then the theoratical 'higher' gain from blacksmitting.

Skyhoof · 11/18/09, 10:07 AM

Remember when shaman valued mp5 over all other stats? Remember in Sunwell when we stacked spellpower? Remember at the start of WotLK when Intellect was the way to go? And of course Cataclysm will bring a whole slew of changes in stats for every class. Plus, I doubt our current endless mana situation will last. Blizzard has repeatedly said they want us to have to manage our mana (and I don't think they only meant on heroic 25-man Anub'arak). However, I don't think they will bother making any mana changes until Cataclysm.

Leveling a profession isn't like swapping around gems in your gear. Besides members of hardcore, progression guilds, most players will not level a new profession to take advantage of temporary advantages that are usually nerfed (remember the leatherworking craze?)

If we're going to take a long-term view when ranking professions, perhaps we should make it:

Alchemy > Jewelcrafting/Blacksmithing > Enchanting/Inscription/Leatherworking*/Tailoring > Engineering > Herbalism/Mining/Skinning

* At times in the past, Leatherworkers were able to craft BoP items that were often best-in-slot.

JC and BS are both strong because the flexibility they provide as far as which stats you want to maximize. This benefit is likely to remain in place going forward (especially for JC). Until recently, tailoring provided little benefit. Therefore, it might be wiser to lump it with the other crafting professions.

I will also
* Add the Crazy Alchemist potion benefit
* Clarify that Flask of the North doesn't benefit from Mixology and is really a PVP buff (or nice to use on farm/easy content)

And thanks for the Mixology numbers on the elixirs.

• Jessamy · 11/18/09, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by scrusi

The reason is simply that haste is a much better stat than spellpower and there's no haste flask to boost while you can easily put haste gems into the BS sockets. With my current HEP values (ymmv) BS gives me 72 HEP as opposed to Alchemy's 47.

This may change with the tier 10 2 piece bonus making many of our casts soft-capped.

Also, the itemization on the tier pieces discovered yesterday shows a lot of haste. With the higher ilvl gear, if we can gear to the haste rating soft cap, we'll probably want to shuffle gems around to stay just at the cap, similar to how a dps player will stay just at a hit or expertise cap. Or maybe the best practice will be to push haste into the 1500+ range and shift from LHW to HW, which would introduce mana concerns.

Migosha · 11/18/09, 11:08 AM

Blizzard will prolly put some more stress on our mana for Cataclysm, as it's not really 'normal' to be that easygoing with mana as we are at the moment. Untill 3.2 we always had to take care of our mana usage as shaman, now we can spam heals as much as we want and we still have less mana troubles than priests or paladins.
According to Dastey's numbers, swapping T9 for T10 set will makes us gain nicely in every stat except for MP5 which will be less than the actual number. If the set's stats are the ones we will really have for 3.3 (i.e Blizzard won't change them at the last minute) that seems to prove that they didn't planned any change to mana generation until Cataclysm hit the live servers.

At first glance I found that there was too much crit and not enough haste for my tastes. But in first place we will swap a crit piece for an off set with haste (if the 4 pieces bonus is worth it, else it will be 3 pieces swapped as we do with the T9 set). And with that new tier we will prolly reach the haste soft cap meaning haste HEP will prolly go down at that moment.

About the professions, Blizzard clearly stated that they will do their best for having each profession more or less equal. Of course there are slight variations in gains but no more "You're that class/spec, so X and Y professions are by far the best for you !". And we shouldn't see anymore "let's all switch for leatherworking for drums" like during Sunwell, as most crafted items are BoE . Sure it's less elitist than the previous vision of the profession's system, but it allows way more versatility and you choose the professions you like the more, not the ones you HAVE to learn to be the more competitive you can.

machikas · 11/18/09, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by Hamano

tl;dr I think the practical gain of alchemy is higher then the theoratical 'higher' gain from blacksmitting.

I do agree with this. We do lose that absolute value of haste, but we lose the flexibility of Alchemy. I've often, on newer, harder content, switched to a Pure Mojo flask (less so in TOC, but we'll see what Icecrown brings), and no other profession can really match that level of on the fly flexibility. Say you want to try Haste/Int Elixir on this fight, and Spellpower flask on the next. You wouldn't carry around bunches of gems around with you, would you?

Crazy potions can be undervalued. Ankhing/Rebirth this sets you up to a very high amount of HP and a substantial amount of Mana almost instantly, reducing the chance of dying upon Ankh/Rebirth, or going OOM afterwords, while compared to a regular Potion. I do not like how they took out the ability to force Potion of Speed to proc by watching your HP/Mana beforehand, but when it does, it's a nice proc.

Free potions are also wonderful. Not in a Min/Max sense, but in convenience. I pop Endless potions on trash, and also as I drop totems as fights are starting, as a way to top myself off (double potion trick). I have also found that the Endless Mana potions are great for soloing, especially as Enh without Imp. SS (where things die too fast for Shamanistic Rage to regen enough). Also, nobody can deny double duration flasks isn't great.

On Paper, Alchemy might not be the best, but in practice I've found it to be invaluable due to the countless conveniences it brings.

scrusi · 11/18/09, 6:45 PM

Well if we are talking ifs and maybes you guys are obviously right - I was under the impression that this is about the game as it is today.
I can also see the benefits of Alchemy (being alchemist and not BS myself), and switching from Alchemy to BS is indeed expensive and probably not worth it (again one of the reasons why I'm still alchemist). That all said, if money is not an issue, BS seems to be the better profession for current content. I'm far from saying "everyone should be BS" but if you make a list, putting the de-facto lower HEP and currently limited added value profession first seems wrong to me.

As for tailoring - can you tell me why it would be even as good as LW & co? My (napkin)
math shows it as clearly worse and with no added benefits (except for cheap leg enchants...)

machikas · 11/18/09, 9:42 PM

Originally Posted by scrusi

As for tailoring - can you tell me why it would be even as good as LW & co? My (napkin)
math shows it as clearly worse and with no added benefits (except for cheap leg enchants...)

Tailoring Cloak Enchant. With Lightweave Embroidery, you would lose 23 Haste with Greater Speed, but gain an average of I beileve 73 spell power. It is 250 Spellpower for 15 seconds, 45 Internal CD. Puts it in line with the other professions, although for DPS Spell-casters, it still is best.

If that was the question you were asking, that is, because your phrasing was a little unclear.