[Resto] Best Practices: PvE Healing Discussion - Page 95

Law · 03/30/10, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bloch

There was an interesting theorycraft post on this very topic I believe somewhere in this thread (I can't find it at the moment, but I'm nearly positive I saw it on these forums). Anyway, here is a start on a theorycraft of this:

Chance to NOT proc the HoT on a 4-hit CH cast (w/o ELW Glyph):

0.8*0.8*0.8*0.8 = 0.4096 = 40.96% chance to NOT proc the HoT; Conversely yields a (1-0.4096) = 59.04% chance to Proc HoT

Chance to NOT proc the HoT on a 4-hit CH cast (W ELW Glyph):

0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75 = 0.3164 = 31.64% chance to NOT proc the HoT; Conversely yields a (1-0.3164) = 68.36% chance to Proc

Increased chance to proc HoT on CH cast: 68.36%-59.04% = 9.32% increase.

I'll make a few assumptions here, you can take them as you will:

A. Healing Breakdown:
(1) CH will make up about 45% of our casts
(2) LHW will make up about 30% of our casts
(3) RT will make up about 12.5% of our casts
(4) HW will make up about 7.5% of our casts
(5) ES will make up about 5% of our casts

B. Gearing/SP/Buffs
(1) Raid Buffed SP = 3500
(2) In ICC (+5% healing)
(3) You are spec'd into Purification (+10% healing)
(4) You have ToL aura (+6% healing)
(5) No one in your raid ever goes below 35% (Due to blessing of the eternals altering proc rate).
(6) Your haste rating is at or above the softcap (1269).

If we accept all of this, we can make an intelligent guess at a proc chance increase:

(0.45*0.0932+0.3*0.05+0.125*0.05+0.075*0.05+0.05*0.0)= 0.06694 = 6.694% chance to proc EL HoT*

*I assume here (for the sake of being conservative) that EL HoT can ONLY proc off of the initial heal of RT, not the HoT. If it can proc off of the HoT, the proc chance increase can be calculated using the same methodology as the CH calculation with 5 ticks+ 1 initial heal (6 total heals) to be: 7.119%.

With the Gearing/SP/Buffs assumption, we can calculate additional healing done by the increased procs:

ELW Healing formula (from wowwiki) is: (BHA+(BH*0.8*1.88*0.45)) (to calculate per tick, divide by 4)

Where BHA = Base Heal Amount (692 at lvl 80)
BH = Bonus Healing

For our shaman with the above bonus healing values, the ELW should heal for 3060.8 over 12 seconds. Adding in ToL, Purification, and ICC buff, this number becomes: 3060.8*1.1*1.06*1.05 = 3747.34 over 12 seconds.

For a 5 minute fight with continuous casting and assuming your average cast time will be around 1.33 seconds using the healing distribution above (I tried to factor in 2T10, but it might be a little off; I also factored in WoA totem and 3% haste from ret paladins), this you will have a total of: 225.5 total casts.

Without the glyph, we have a ~21%* chance to proc a HoT, so we could expect about 47 EL procs.

*Factoring in CH casts

With the glyph, we can expect a 20%+6.694% chance to proc a HoT, so we could expect about 60 EL procs.

Additional Healing: Assuming 3747.34 healing done per proc, we would get an additional 13*3747.34 = 48715.42 healing done over 5 minutes, or 162.38 HPS.

Notes and Limitations:
1. This does not factor in T10 4pc bonus procing the HoT.
2. This does not factor in RT ticks procing the HoT
3. This is in an ideal world, assuming 100% casting uptime.

This is also assuming 100% of the HoT is *not* overheal, isn't it? I thought ELW was crippled by the fact that it's almost always going to do at least some overheal, considering how it gets applied.

Bloch · 03/30/10, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by Law

This is also assuming 100% of the HoT is *not* overheal, isn't it? I thought ELW was crippled by the fact that it's almost always going to do at least some overheal, considering how it gets applied.

Yes, you're correct. I forgot to put that in the "limitations" section. As far as the overhealing goes, I'm not convinced that the "method" the HoT is applied is particularly relevant--I think it is just in virtue of the fact that Earthliving is a HoT that it will certainly overheal.

The current situation we find ourselves in, however, it seems most of our 3rd major glyph choices are about the same--namely boosting spells/abilities that are HoT-related (ELW, RT, HST). I'm simply trying to figure out which one will give me the most raw healing done, and hope that the additional raw healing translates well into additional effective healing.

Law · 03/30/10, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by Bloch

Yes, you're correct. I forgot to put that in the "limitations" section. As far as the overhealing goes, I'm not convinced that the "method" the HoT is applied is particularly relevant--I think it is just in virtue of the fact that Earthliving is a HoT that it will certainly overheal.

The current situation we find ourselves in, however, it seems most of our 3rd major glyph choices are about the same--namely boosting spells/abilities that are HoT-related (ELW, RT, HST). I'm simply trying to figure out which one will give me the most raw healing done, and hope that the additional raw healing translates well into additional effective healing.

Looking at the last page worth of shaman_hep reports, it appears like the average overheal % of ELW is somewhere around 60% (58.78%). The average HEP value for RT glyph from that thread was ~73 (73.77), but it varied from 9HEP all the way up to 180HEP, I guess depending on how often a player uses RT, or when. I don't know exactly how HEP translates into HPS, but if you could figure out what (162.38 * .40) 64.95 HPS equaled in HEP, you could compare the RT glyph to the ELW glyph more easily, right? Or can't you shave 60% off the top like that? I'd like to see your updated calculations, if you would take overhealing into account.

Bloch · 03/30/10, 5:02 PM

Originally Posted by Law

Looking at the last page worth of shaman_hep reports, it appears like the average overheal % of ELW is somewhere around 60% (58.78%). The average HEP value for RT glyph from that thread was ~73 (73.77), but it varied from 9HEP all the way up to 180HEP, I guess depending on how often a player uses RT, or when. I don't know exactly how HEP translates into HPS, but if you could figure out what (162.38 * .40) 64.95 HPS equaled in HEP, you could compare the RT glyph to the ELW glyph more easily, right? Or can't you shave 60% off the top like that? I'd like to see your updated calculations, if you would take overhealing into account.

Here's one way we might be able to make a more accurate assessment of the two glyphs (from HEP Logs, #328):

Glyph of Riptide:
Extra riptide time: 35 mins 38 secs
Combat Extra time: 27 mins 50 secs
Riptide lasted into glyph time 373 times (68.5662%)
Count: 672, effective: 291176 (1.49%), total: 815969 (1.89%)
Combat count: 550, effective: 271543 (1.43%),
total: 677351 (1.65%)
Total hot healing w/ overheal ticks: 815969 (1.89%)
Combat: 677351 (1.65%)
Total hot Overhealing w/ overheal ticks: 524793 (64.32%)
Combat: 405808 (59.91%)
Combat EHPS increase: 38.4557
HEP: 78.4920

From the last two lines of the above quote, we can see that an increase in EHPS of ~38.46 translates into a HEP value of 78.49. Generalizing from this, we can see that:

HEP = 2.041*EHPS

Using the (conservative) estimates from above, we can see that: an EHPS increase of 64.95 (per your estimate from HEP data) should yield an HEP value of 132.56.

stassart · 03/30/10, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by Zigizi

If I'm reading it right, he means to allow healers to grab more green clouds in the dream portals.

I've never done this, so I don't really know if it increases your "swimming" speed in the portal area. I suppose you could try it if your healers are having trouble getting stacks up; I don't think that's the area most guilds would struggle with, though.

I pop drums of speed that fight if I dropped out of the portal room far away from the next set of portals and have to run far. Even 15% speed boost means 15% speed boost means getting off at least another extra hw if you have to run from one side of the dragon to the other. In addition I often come out with other healers so if I have to run far they likely do too so that speed boost helps them too. I also try to save my nature's swiftness for when I have this situation too so that I can throw an NS HW. I will also usually pause to consume the T10 2-piece hasted HW if I have to move far.

Inside the portal room keep in mind that Crusader Aura actually works so if your healers get used to running with that in the portal room that provides a lot of speed boost.

Law · 03/30/10, 6:32 PM

Originally Posted by Bloch

Here's one way we might be able to make a more accurate assessment of the two glyphs (from HEP Logs, #328):

From the last two lines of the above quote, we can see that an increase in EHPS of ~38.46 translates into a HEP value of 78.49. Generalizing from this, we can see that:

HEP = 2.041*EHPS

Using the (conservative) estimates from above, we can see that: an EHPS increase of 64.95 (per your estimate from HEP data) should yield an HEP value of 132.56.

So with that in mind, it looks like EWL pulls ahead in most cases, though if you're very good at placing RTs, the RT glyph may be preferable.

I wonder how HWT glyph stacks up, comparatively.

stassart · 04/11/10, 2:29 AM

I have been noticing a trend in shaman_hep reports as far as glyph choices go. With the loss of T9 2-piece the Glyph of Riptide performance has been roughly cut in half and now that Glyph of Earthliving Weapon was finally fixed in 3.3.3 it seems to be consistently outperforming Glyph of Riptide if you no longer use T9 2-piece.

I also posted the following table to the resto shaman TTT thread:

Glyph	HEP Range	HEP Average
Glyph of Chain Heal	64-715	281
Glyph of Earth Shield	59-278	139
Glyph of Riptide (T9 2-piece)	40-222	129
Glyph of Earthliving Weapon	50-132	79
Glyph of Riptide (T10 4-piece)	10-91	60
Glyph of Lesser Healing Wave	0-57	29
Glyph of Healing Wave	0-51	20
Glyph of Water Shield (minor)	6-59	23

Notes:
[Glyph of Earthliving Weapon] was fixed in 3.3.3 to actually produce the 5% increased proc rate it has always claimed to have. From what I have seen so far from shaman_hep parses, it now performs about on par with Glyph of Riptide (once you lose T9 2-piece) so it now a quite viable option for raiding.
[Glyph of Riptide] performs almost twice as well with T9 2-piece than without.
[Glyph of Lesser Healing Wave] only performs well when tank healing with Lesser Healing Wave.
[Glyph of Healing Wave] can perform very well for specific bosses like Blood Queen and hard mode Dreamwalker.
[Glyph of Healing Stream Totem] was not included due to lack of enough data points. It can perform quite well on some fights or if you are in the tank group.

Jarin · 04/13/10, 10:13 AM

Thanks Stassart. I had also been noticing that glyph of Lesser Healing Wave just wasn't performing that well for me recently (often giving me HEP values in the 20s and 30s even when tank healing).

In my case this seems to be due to a significant shift in my play style when tank healing with the addition of the 4pc set bonus, more mana and a good chunk of haste. Now, instead of primarily using RT/LHW on the tank with HW as an occasional "big heal", I'm often using CH as a "medium heal" especially if I can grab the last RT tick with it. The mana cost is affordable most nights (though last run we had no replenishment, which required some adjustment) and it has the advantage of rolling huge CHing hots on the tank. What this means, though, is that when I'm using LHW it is as a maintenance heal or to get / keep Ancestral Healing up and almost always overheals, making the glyph much less valuable. Are other people seeing the same shift? Or does this not work in hard modes? (keep your fingers crossed, we should start working on those next week with any skill/luck at all.)

I was surprised by Stassart's comment about shaman in the tank group. Isn't this standard practice these days except for aura fights (where you join softer targets that take damage)? The little totem is healing ~half as much as the RT HOT constantly on 5 targets with neither glyphed; it's no small heal. A quick search of this thread didn't bring this up.. but I'd recommend this unless your other healers are in dire need of your mana tide totem.

If you are in a group with folks taking damage, I'm surprised that more folks aren't going with Glyph of Healing Stream totem these days, unless folks logs look much different than mine. Most nights on fights that require the healer to be awake (ie not the first 4 bosses in ICC) I'm seeing Healing Stream totem consistently at 6-8% of my healing. In one night of progression bosses on 10 man (Blood Queen, Valithria, Sindragosa tries) with the glyph, Healing Stream broke 10% of my total effective healing for the night and the glyph HEP value came out at ~96. ELW rarely breaks 4% of my effective healing, so buffing it by 25% with a glyph seems much less valuable than buffing Healing Stream by 20%.

On Valithria, in particular, glyphed Healing Stream can be a trip.. on our 10 man kill it was ticking for more than 2K per target every 2 seconds for more than the last minute of the fight, all while I was focused on bombing healing wave on the dragon. This was a huge support to the undergeared healer that mostly stayed outside the portals.

If you have a couple gold, I'd recommend you give the Healing Stream glyph a go, if nothing else so that Stassart can fill in more values on his chart.

KnThrak · 04/13/10, 7:11 PM

The problem is that HST is good at padding the meters, but it's actual use for healing someone against a certain cause of death is questionable.

Mind you, it's still a very strong heal but it's a case where the raw number does not necessarily reflect the value for the situation at hand.

Jarin · 04/14/10, 9:05 AM

Originally Posted by KnThrak

The problem is that HST is good at padding the meters, but it's actual use for healing someone against a certain cause of death is questionable.

Mind you, it's still a very strong heal but it's a case where the raw number does not necessarily reflect the value for the situation at hand.

I've heard this "common knowledge" many times, but can you prove / provide evidence of this? I've never heard anything convincing here. The difference between a totem providing a 5 person HOT healing each for 350+ HPS and a druid rolling their weak HOT (or even Wild Growth) is what?

I like HST for a few reasons.. biggest one is "fire and forget". Second biggest is mana efficiency. Third is timing of the heals. Fourth is that it gets notably stronger the harder the fight. I'd argue that its heals are MORE useful than those that come from the Riptide HOT and ELW since they are likely to land ticks BEFORE you ever get a direct healing spell on the target. Given that most bosses swing time is more than 2 seconds, this totem is handling 700+ damage of each swing with no GCD cost. For aura fights, it can heal ~1000 damage per 3 second aura tick per target in the group.. certainly a double digit percentage of that damage coming in.

My gut feel is that folks like to say that HST is "meter padding" and "not useful" so that it doesn't get nerfed. It certainly is one of the most boring healing spells in game and requires no skill at all to use.

That said, I started with the glyph comparison not really a referendum on HST, though they are related. My glyph of LHW has never saved a tank; if the tank is in that much danger I'm using a different spell. When comparing glyph of HST typically to glyph of ELW and Glyph of Riptide, both of those increase HOT uptime as well, but only in a reactive way (ie after the first heal has landed) but other than that the heals behave similarly to HST.

My math based on my logs indicated that I should see a much bigger total effective HPS increase from HST than from the others and so far my test with the HST glyph did show the expected improvement there and, based on that, I recommend you at least give it a look / try. Personally, I'm guessing that either glyph of HST or ELW are going to be the winner here (or a situational combination of both), but am reserving judgment until I have more data.

Ionel · 04/14/10, 11:59 AM

Stassart's table was just showing the average values compiled using shaman_hep. While GoHST may have performed very well for you it may not for another player (or not AS strong). The important thing is that we dont set standards based on the average, but that each individual evaluates what works with their playstyle using shaman_hep.

Moral of the story, the value of each glyph (or any item) is based on how the player utilizes it.

Morrka · 04/14/10, 12:22 PM

There is no "Must have" Glyph because of the different encounters and boss mechanics. I have plenty of different stacks of glyphs in my bag and switch to whatever a fight requires. The normal 25 man setup is ES, HST, CH, on Valithria its HW, LHW, RT, in 10 man its ES, LHW, RT etc.. Which glyphs you use is depending on raidcomposition, play style and tactic.

HST is a very special totem and in fights like Bloodqueen or lich king with constant raid damage it is really a big deal. Our tactic back in TOGC Anub'arak was based on my glyphed HST. I kept my group (the healers) alive in p3 with the glyphed HST alone, settled down at 2k hp. IF i had died, my group had died as well. But so we had one healer free for Penetrating cold or tank heal.

unfortunately, in Hardmodes mana tide is still worth keeping me in the healer group so our enhancement shaman uses unglyphed HST in tank group.

KraxisSingular · 04/14/10, 5:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ionel

Stassart's table was just showing the average values compiled using shaman_hep. While GoHST may have performed very well for you it may not for another player (or not AS strong). The important thing is that we dont set standards based on the average, but that each individual evaluates what works with their playstyle using shaman_hep.

Moral of the story, the value of each glyph (or any item) is based on how the player utilizes it.

I believe Jarin's point was close to that, given the glyph comes from the position of "meter padding", and so might have a bit of an unjust bad rep. If based on the usual comments on the HST glyph a non-active reader could potentially conclude it is never good, and if it never gets looked at in raids, who will know?
This place is all about exploring the little advantages that combined become the great advantage.

Vice · 04/14/10, 7:56 PM

Originally Posted by Derfal

My guilds just started on Valithra. I apologise if it's been mentioned b4, however is it worth taking a set of drums of speed for myself and the other healers?

Any thoughts?

Also apologies if this should have gone in the simple questions thread, however i thought it linked in nicely with the professions discussion.

The portals work as if you are on a flying mount or swimming. A few useful tidbits:

-a Paladin can utilize Crusader Aura to increase your movement speed (they can Aura Mastery it for an even bigger boost)
-Glyph of Unending Breath will increase your movement speed in the portal realm as well.
-I have not tested this, but Swim Speed Potions should also work.

Treyarch · 04/19/10, 6:58 PM

I know crusader aura doesn't stack with other mount movement increasing spells, but does it apply to normal ones like unending breath, too?

I guess swimspeed and Glyph of Unending Breath should stack.