Note: I posted this in the shaman forum although I'm not sure if that's the best place for it.

Short version:

There is no advantage for using bloodlust/heroism at execute range. This is a result of execute range being based on boss HP rather than a timer, and the fact bloodlust/heroism is raid wide. This nifty fact is only relevant to raid-wide DPS buffs, though - personal DPS buffs should still be used in execute range if your class benefits from it.


Long version:

After thinking for a while that bloodlust/heroism are indeed best used when the raid DPS is higher to get a bigger boost, it suddenly hit me that it is not necessarily a useful thing to do since using it earlier will bring you to the higher DPS period faster. Being the guy that just has to know it all, I decided to take a look into it and see whether or not bringing execute range in faster is enough to make up for the fact you're not stacking bloodlust/heroism with other cooldowns.

The reason the time of bloodlust/heroism is irrelevant is because it is a straight up raid-wide DPS boost. This means that you will, during the 40 second duration, do the same damage as you would've done in 50 seconds (arbitrarily assuming 25% DPS boost), effectively shaving off 10 seconds off the fight's duration. As you can see, those 10 seconds would be shaved off regardless of whether you use bloodlust/heroism before or after 35%.

The above does not apply to personal cooldowns! Since other classes that don't benefit from execute range are present in your raid, your ability to affect the time at which the boss enters execute range is lesser. If you just run some simple simulation it'll be easy to see that the boss will die faster if you use your personal cooldowns at execute range if you're a class that benefits from them, while obviously if you're a class that doesn't benefit from execute range, the boss will die faster if you use them before execute range.

This also doesn't apply to regular cooldown stacking, as 2 X% buffs that are present at the same time will shave off more time off the fight's duration when used together than separately - also easy to see by making a simple simulation, but of course this isn't anything new.

When considering times that force the raid DPS to be lower than normal for various reasons, what will matter here is whether or not the DPS of the raid is limited due to an effect triggered by boss HP % or by a timer. If the raid DPS is lowered due to a boss being at a certain phase due to his HP % (for example choosing between malygos' P1 as opposed to P2), you can still use bloodlust/heroism at any time and the fight will be shortened by the same amount of time. If the raid DPS is lowered due to a timed ability (for example, vortex on malygos, sapphiron air phase, malygos' P1->P2 transition), then you should obviously avoid using bloodlust/heroism during that time.

This is useful information, since bloodlusts/heroisms at <35% are rather hard to coordinate for stacking with other cooldowns (which do benefit from the stacking since both are time-dependent rather than boss HP % dependent). This is also useful because you could just use it whenever you feel it's useful in the fight due to mechanics, be it to help healers heal or burn through a slightly harder phase (though in most cases this is already being done, but at least now you know you're not lengthening the fight by doing so).

The only thing I can think off that can break this "you can bloodlust/heroism whenever and fight duration will be the same" rule is if classes that benefit from execute range gain significant amounts of damage by doing more damage, like extra rage generation for bigger executes or similar stuff. As far as I know, though, there aren't any significant factors of this sort to take into consideration here that makes bloodlust/heroism's relative DPS increase to be different when the actual DPS is different. EDIT: This can also have an effect for any class that changes its relative scaling with haste in execute range (aka affliction warlocks, executing warriors).

EDIT: Another thing that could go against this rule is cooldowns that are used during BL/hero that will not be back up for execute range for classes that benefit for it. This is probably also be a non-issue or at least an insignificant one in most cases.

I'm not sure how useful this will be in uludar, but at least I will no longer feel like my raid is going to be missing something when I call for BL/hero at the start of a fight.

Obviously I hadn't, considering searching for "bloodlust" gives obviously irrelevant results. It does show, however, that I was right about it being a bad idea to try put it in a mathematical formula

On a side note, it does matter when you pop your trinkets if there average DPSer's gain from execute range is lower than yours (I assumed all classes that benefit from execute are above that average, which should be true in normal raids).

Edit: nvm

Edit2: Upon further examination, i was right in the first place, so here goes again:

While, the theory is correct in it's most basic form, it's not that simple. Different classes will get a different amount of percentage wise damage boost from bloodlust. If the classes with "executes" benefit more from bloodlust than the average, you will get the most of it by using it then. If they benefit less than the average, it's better to pop it before that period.

Sorry, did you read the OP or the blog entry I linked? The fact is that if you bloodlust when those execute abilities are up, you reduce the timeframe that those abilities are available for. Basically, it works out to be the same overall damage, even if the dps is higher for that timeframe, and the time gained sub-execute point is the same as the time you gain using bloodlust at the start.

If anyone wishes to comment any further on this subject, please read the 16 comments here before replying to this thread (mostly because it gets tiring rebutting the same point again and again).

For straight-up tank-and-spank fights you made a few good points. Yes, it really doesn't matter - in such a scenario - when BL/heroism is used.

They theory starts breaking down though when you consider fights with phases or any kind of mobility to them. Every second with the buff is wasted if you're not hitting something at the time because you're moving from A to B. For example consider the Four Horsemen fight. If it's cast when the first two mobs are dead and the raid is walking to the other to... well, no good.

Range and LoS is also significant. Again consider the same fight - if you hit BL/heroism while the raid is split up, fewer people get the buff. If you wait it can have a higher payoff when the raid is more gathered up.

Finally - and that's a point you did make - the buff is acquired best when people are expecting it, so they can save CDs for it.

I think there is no "easy" way to calculate what is better as you need to calculate too many variables. Using static values for DPS will show that it doesn't matter when you pop hero.
It all comes down to let other ppl know when you pop it, so they can use their cooldowns together with heroism.


To quote some:

Thats a stupid argument because it ignores the fundamentals of theory craft.
Nobody, but nobody, with half a brain would suggest that DPS spreadsheets are wrong because they give you a number representing your average DPS. Yes, some people with less than half a brain have argued about the value of spreadsheets because of fights with lots of movement or target changing, but fundamentally those are impossilbe to model so we don't waste our time bothering.

The raid's dps is significantly less variable than personal DPS, and it is raid dps that matters. We are not modeling a single DPS class, but all of the dps from all sources. While the model is simple it is completely general. That's the joy about algebra, I don't need to worry about the size or the nature of the dps change below 35%, because it has been proven for both additive and multiplicative bonuses of any size (including negative). If you can show me a dps change that we cannot model as a flat multiplier or addition, then maybe you might have a point.

Further, people who want to post things like this:
Can fuck right off. Noone here gives a damn that you "feel" shadow step is the best spec, or anything else that you feel. Bring some WWS parses broken down in a meaningful way and argue from facts or take your faith and shove it up your arse.

Finally, your comment is ultimately unhelpful.
Yes raid DPS is a function of time, and ideally you would pop bloodlust + all cooldowns during that 40s period at which raid DPS is greatest (normalizing for the sub 35% bonus). But, unless the boss has a very clear "kill me now" phase (a la C'thun) you won't know post ante when that is making it impossible to line up all your cooldowns with it. So you are left trying to geuss before the fight when your maximum raid dps might occur, which of couse you can't usually know outside of obvious fight-mechanics, which brings you right back to the conclusions of Bink's post:

Bloodlust during execute does not change the fight length relative to bloodlust pre-execute and therefore, to minimize the fight lenth you should:
1) Bloodlust at the point during the fight you can levearge most raid DPS (ignoring the execute bonus).
Noting that
1b) This normally involves synchronizing all exterior cooldowns which are almost always easier to align at the start of a fight.

BL during execute isn't wrong (per-se) but it makes it harder for your raiders to align all their cooldowns and extract maximum raid dps during the BL duration. Normally it will be easier to achieve maximum raid-dps during BL by using BL early when you know 100% that your raid can synchronize all their cool-downs. BL during execute is wrong if the sub 35% period lasts less than 40 seconds, which is appropriate to consider for a number of fights (especially "farm" content).

No it is based on the assumption that RAID DPS is modeled by some combination of a linear multiplier and an addative bonus. There is absolutely no concern for the dps bonus of any individual in the raid.

It doesn't matter if your mage gets 100% damage bonus and your rogue gets 10%, the RAID dps still increases by X where X is some number. X may be a function of the mage and rogue dps, and their dps gains under blood lust. But as we have proven the result for all X, it is proven for all values of mage/rogue dps/dps gain.

[e]
We are also looking at the total fight duration and not just any single phase, which means you have to consider the alternative scenarios for BL use and compare those; rather than just comparing the fight with/without BL.

Your entire argument misses the fact that we only talk percentages in examples.

e;fb - Wraithlin you post too fast.

Ok then, i guess the example it is then...

Joe the Wizard output 100 dps. When the boss drops below 50%, his damage increases to 200 dps due to cool talents. Greg the Lizard Lord can also output 100 dps, but unfortunatly he has no talents that increases his damage at low boss health. When Greg pops his bloodlust, Joe's dps is doubled. Greg does not benefit from bloodlust at all. In conclusion.
Above 50%:
Joe: 100 dps without bloodlust, 200 dps with.
Greg: 100 dps without bloodlust, 100 dps with.
Below 50%:
Joe: 200 dps without bloodlust, 400 dps with.
Greg: 100 dps without bloodlust, 100 dps with.

Now consider the two cases of popping bloodlust early and late in the fight. Let's set boss hp to 100k

Early bloodlust:
40 seconds of 200+100dps, meaning 12k damage.
190 seconds of 100+100dps, meaning 38k damage.
167 seconds of 200+100dps, meaning 50k damage
Total: boss dies after 397 seconds.

Late bloodlust:
250 seconds of 100+100dps, meaning 50k damage.
40 seconds of 400+100dps, meaning 20k damage.
100 seconds of 200+100 dps, meaning 30k damage.
Total: boss dies after 390 seconds.

Now, can you please explain to me why it's not better to pop bloodlust below 50%? Extra bonus if you can do it without insulting me.

I already read his post, and all of the comments, multiple times. There is no such assumption stated anywhere, and when Psy and Zakalwe implies the same thing that I'm trying to explain only to be dismissed by Wraithlin and Binkenstein. Obviously, I can't see what's going on in the 100-150 posts benefactor's discussion and it's probably been mentioned somewhere in there, but it's definitely not something that is obvious to assume. Especially since it's flat out wrong in most cases.