galzohar

Note: I posted this in the shaman forum although I'm not sure if that's the best place for it.

Short version:

There is no advantage for using bloodlust/heroism at execute range. This is a result of execute range being based on boss HP rather than a timer, and the fact bloodlust/heroism is raid wide. This nifty fact is only relevant to raid-wide DPS buffs, though - personal DPS buffs should still be used in execute range if your class benefits from it.


Long version:

After thinking for a while that bloodlust/heroism are indeed best used when the raid DPS is higher to get a bigger boost, it suddenly hit me that it is not necessarily a useful thing to do since using it earlier will bring you to the higher DPS period faster. Being the guy that just has to know it all, I decided to take a look into it and see whether or not bringing execute range in faster is enough to make up for the fact you're not stacking bloodlust/heroism with other cooldowns.

The reason the time of bloodlust/heroism is irrelevant is because it is a straight up raid-wide DPS boost. This means that you will, during the 40 second duration, do the same damage as you would've done in 50 seconds (arbitrarily assuming 25% DPS boost), effectively shaving off 10 seconds off the fight's duration. As you can see, those 10 seconds would be shaved off regardless of whether you use bloodlust/heroism before or after 35%.

The above does not apply to personal cooldowns! Since other classes that don't benefit from execute range are present in your raid, your ability to affect the time at which the boss enters execute range is lesser. If you just run some simple simulation it'll be easy to see that the boss will die faster if you use your personal cooldowns at execute range if you're a class that benefits from them, while obviously if you're a class that doesn't benefit from execute range, the boss will die faster if you use them before execute range.

This also doesn't apply to regular cooldown stacking, as 2 X% buffs that are present at the same time will shave off more time off the fight's duration when used together than separately - also easy to see by making a simple simulation, but of course this isn't anything new.

When considering times that force the raid DPS to be lower than normal for various reasons, what will matter here is whether or not the DPS of the raid is limited due to an effect triggered by boss HP % or by a timer. If the raid DPS is lowered due to a boss being at a certain phase due to his HP % (for example choosing between malygos' P1 as opposed to P2), you can still use bloodlust/heroism at any time and the fight will be shortened by the same amount of time. If the raid DPS is lowered due to a timed ability (for example, vortex on malygos, sapphiron air phase, malygos' P1->P2 transition), then you should obviously avoid using bloodlust/heroism during that time.

This is useful information, since bloodlusts/heroisms at <35% are rather hard to coordinate for stacking with other cooldowns (which do benefit from the stacking since both are time-dependent rather than boss HP % dependent). This is also useful because you could just use it whenever you feel it's useful in the fight due to mechanics, be it to help healers heal or burn through a slightly harder phase (though in most cases this is already being done, but at least now you know you're not lengthening the fight by doing so).

The only thing I can think off that can break this "you can bloodlust/heroism whenever and fight duration will be the same" rule is if classes that benefit from execute range gain significant amounts of damage by doing more damage, like extra rage generation for bigger executes or similar stuff. As far as I know, though, there aren't any significant factors of this sort to take into consideration here that makes bloodlust/heroism's relative DPS increase to be different when the actual DPS is different. EDIT: This can also have an effect for any class that changes its relative scaling with haste in execute range (aka affliction warlocks, executing warriors).

EDIT: Another thing that could go against this rule is cooldowns that are used during BL/hero that will not be back up for execute range for classes that benefit for it. This is probably also be a non-issue or at least an insignificant one in most cases.

I'm not sure how useful this will be in uludar, but at least I will no longer feel like my raid is going to be missing something when I call for BL/hero at the start of a fight.

 

• Binkenstein

Just a silly question, you had seen this post right? (although it's a good write up anyway)

 

galzohar

Obviously I hadn't, considering searching for "bloodlust" gives obviously irrelevant results. It does show, however, that I was right about it being a bad idea to try put it in a mathematical formula

On a side note, it does matter when you pop your trinkets if there average DPSer's gain from execute range is lower than yours (I assumed all classes that benefit from execute are above that average, which should be true in normal raids).

 

MatsT

Edit: nvm

Edit2: Upon further examination, i was right in the first place, so here goes again:

While, the theory is correct in it's most basic form, it's not that simple. Different classes will get a different amount of percentage wise damage boost from bloodlust. If the classes with "executes" benefit more from bloodlust than the average, you will get the most of it by using it then. If they benefit less than the average, it's better to pop it before that period.

 

• Binkenstein

Sorry, did you read the OP or the blog entry I linked? The fact is that if you bloodlust when those execute abilities are up, you reduce the timeframe that those abilities are available for. Basically, it works out to be the same overall damage, even if the dps is higher for that timeframe, and the time gained sub-execute point is the same as the time you gain using bloodlust at the start.

If anyone wishes to comment any further on this subject, please read the 16 comments here before replying to this thread (mostly because it gets tiring rebutting the same point again and again).

 

Daidalos

MATS the difference in dps will just favor those classes with execute type abilities more than those who don't skewing the meters in their favor, but raid dps for the fight should not change. Binks (et al) proof is very simple and compelling. The percentage of dps increased during the sub 30% proportionally reduces the amount of time that you can dps during sub 30% making a greater percentage of the fight time above 30%

I think the pitfall is that people think of things as an overall time. For example if a boss was 70s of above 30% health and 30s of sub 30% hp then it would be higher dps to blow lust during sub 30%. Obviously this is not how bosses work since they are based on HP not time.

Also I am angry I didn't think of this and its blindingly obvious if you actually sit down and think about it. I just took the lust advice for granted and never actually thought about it.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Arkandel

For straight-up tank-and-spank fights you made a few good points. Yes, it really doesn't matter - in such a scenario - when BL/heroism is used.

They theory starts breaking down though when you consider fights with phases or any kind of mobility to them. Every second with the buff is wasted if you're not hitting something at the time because you're moving from A to B. For example consider the Four Horsemen fight. If it's cast when the first two mobs are dead and the raid is walking to the other to... well, no good.

Range and LoS is also significant. Again consider the same fight - if you hit BL/heroism while the raid is split up, fewer people get the buff. If you wait it can have a higher payoff when the raid is more gathered up.

Finally - and that's a point you did make - the buff is acquired best when people are expecting it, so they can save CDs for it.

 

Arta

I think there is no "easy" way to calculate what is better as you need to calculate too many variables. Using static values for DPS will show that it doesn't matter when you pop hero.
It all comes down to let other ppl know when you pop it, so they can use their cooldowns together with heroism.


To quote some:

 

◊ Wraithlin

Thats a stupid argument because it ignores the fundamentals of theory craft.
Nobody, but nobody, with half a brain would suggest that DPS spreadsheets are wrong because they give you a number representing your average DPS. Yes, some people with less than half a brain have argued about the value of spreadsheets because of fights with lots of movement or target changing, but fundamentally those are impossilbe to model so we don't waste our time bothering.

The raid's dps is significantly less variable than personal DPS, and it is raid dps that matters. We are not modeling a single DPS class, but all of the dps from all sources. While the model is simple it is completely general. That's the joy about algebra, I don't need to worry about the size or the nature of the dps change below 35%, because it has been proven for both additive and multiplicative bonuses of any size (including negative). If you can show me a dps change that we cannot model as a flat multiplier or addition, then maybe you might have a point.

Further, people who want to post things like this:
Can fuck right off. Noone here gives a damn that you "feel" shadow step is the best spec, or anything else that you feel. Bring some WWS parses broken down in a meaningful way and argue from facts or take your faith and shove it up your arse.

Finally, your comment is ultimately unhelpful.
Yes raid DPS is a function of time, and ideally you would pop bloodlust + all cooldowns during that 40s period at which raid DPS is greatest (normalizing for the sub 35% bonus). But, unless the boss has a very clear "kill me now" phase (a la C'thun) you won't know post ante when that is making it impossible to line up all your cooldowns with it. So you are left trying to geuss before the fight when your maximum raid dps might occur, which of couse you can't usually know outside of obvious fight-mechanics, which brings you right back to the conclusions of Bink's post:

Bloodlust during execute does not change the fight length relative to bloodlust pre-execute and therefore, to minimize the fight lenth you should:
1) Bloodlust at the point during the fight you can levearge most raid DPS (ignoring the execute bonus).
Noting that
1b) This normally involves synchronizing all exterior cooldowns which are almost always easier to align at the start of a fight.

BL during execute isn't wrong (per-se) but it makes it harder for your raiders to align all their cooldowns and extract maximum raid dps during the BL duration. Normally it will be easier to achieve maximum raid-dps during BL by using BL early when you know 100% that your raid can synchronize all their cool-downs. BL during execute is wrong if the sub 35% period lasts less than 40 seconds, which is appropriate to consider for a number of fights (especially "farm" content).

Thesis: Submitted

 

MatsT

Your entire argument is based upon the assumption that all classes get the same percentage wise damage increase from a bloodlust, which is just not true. If people get different gains from the bloodlust, there will be a best time to use the bloodlust. If you agree with this but say for practical reasons and CD stacking we should use it early, I can agree with that. If you don't agree with that, I can provide an easy example to prove it. Which one is it gonna be?

 

◊ Wraithlin

No it is based on the assumption that RAID DPS is modeled by some combination of a linear multiplier and an addative bonus. There is absolutely no concern for the dps bonus of any individual in the raid.

It doesn't matter if your mage gets 100% damage bonus and your rogue gets 10%, the RAID dps still increases by X where X is some number. X may be a function of the mage and rogue dps, and their dps gains under blood lust. But as we have proven the result for all X, it is proven for all values of mage/rogue dps/dps gain.

[e]
We are also looking at the total fight duration and not just any single phase, which means you have to consider the alternative scenarios for BL use and compare those; rather than just comparing the fight with/without BL.

Thesis: Submitted

 

• Binkenstein

Your entire argument misses the fact that we only talk percentages in examples.

e;fb - Wraithlin you post too fast.

 

MatsT

Ok then, i guess the example it is then...

Joe the Wizard output 100 dps. When the boss drops below 50%, his damage increases to 200 dps due to cool talents. Greg the Lizard Lord can also output 100 dps, but unfortunatly he has no talents that increases his damage at low boss health. When Greg pops his bloodlust, Joe's dps is doubled. Greg does not benefit from bloodlust at all. In conclusion.
Above 50%:
Joe: 100 dps without bloodlust, 200 dps with.
Greg: 100 dps without bloodlust, 100 dps with.
Below 50%:
Joe: 200 dps without bloodlust, 400 dps with.
Greg: 100 dps without bloodlust, 100 dps with.

Now consider the two cases of popping bloodlust early and late in the fight. Let's set boss hp to 100k

Early bloodlust:
40 seconds of 200+100dps, meaning 12k damage.
190 seconds of 100+100dps, meaning 38k damage.
167 seconds of 200+100dps, meaning 50k damage
Total: boss dies after 397 seconds.

Late bloodlust:
250 seconds of 100+100dps, meaning 50k damage.
40 seconds of 400+100dps, meaning 20k damage.
100 seconds of 200+100 dps, meaning 30k damage.
Total: boss dies after 390 seconds.

Now, can you please explain to me why it's not better to pop bloodlust below 50%? Extra bonus if you can do it without insulting me.

 

◊ Wraithlin

The symetric haste gain assumption. I forgot to mention this in the first reply.
The model assumes that the dps gain from bloodlust is the same (as an additive or multiplicative effect) either side of 35%. There are specific examples where this is not true and an individual class may scale beter or worse with haste above and below 35%. But then you are back to modeling individual raid compositions, as this becomes a very specific problem.

[e]
To reverse your example
A = Above X%, Below X%, (with BL)
J = 100, 200 (100, 200)
G= 100, 100 (200, 200)
Joe has an execute talent but does not scale with haste. Greg scales with haste, but has no execute talent.

100k HP, BL early
40*(200+100) = 12k
190*(100+100)= 34k
167*(100+200) = 50K
Total time = 397

100k, BL late
250*(100+100) = 50k
40*(200+200) = 16k
113*(200+100) = 34k
Total = 403s

Now BL late makes the fight LONGER.
So you would have to be sure that, overall, your raid dps scales better with BL below 35% than it does above. Thats non-trivial thing to model, which brings you back to the argument that the best models we have so far indicate that it is close to a wash in either direction and therefore you will see a relative gain in raid dps if you focus on synchronizing BL with cooldowns instead of with execute range.

Thesis: Submitted

 

MatsT

I already read his post, and all of the comments, multiple times. There is no such assumption stated anywhere, and when Psy and Zakalwe implies the same thing that I'm trying to explain only to be dismissed by Wraithlin and Binkenstein. Obviously, I can't see what's going on in the 100-150 posts benefactor's discussion and it's probably been mentioned somewhere in there, but it's definitely not something that is obvious to assume. Especially since it's flat out wrong in most cases.

 

MatsT

1: You claim that it's a mathematical wash when you use bloodlust.

2: We say you are wrong. We agree that the effects of late bloodlusts are overrated and it's probably a practical wash, but since classes scale differently with haste it's mathematically better to use it at a certain point.

3: You claim that we are wrong, it's a mathematical wash.

4: We prove that we are right, it's not a mathematical wash.

5: It doesn't matter, it's too hard to model, it's a practical wash anyway.

I'm glad we finally agree. But please don't state that it's a mathematical wash and that it doesn't matter.

Edit: Sorry for double post, screwed up my edit.

 

◊ Wraithlin

If I am dismissive it is because you have to place a rational limit on what you can and cannot usefully discuss. The haste gains either side of execute range may well be assymetric, but until you can measure that and demonstrate that:
1) Raid dps scales better below 35% than above 35% for every raid composition.
2) The increase in raid dps of synchronizing about execute is greater than that of reliably synchronizing all other external cooldowns.
Then its throwing about examples plucked from the air. The fact that the model makes assumptions does not make it wrong until you demonstrate that the assumptions are meaningfully incorrect. Stating that it makes assumptions stating the obvious.

If someone can demonstrate one of these two things then there is something tangible to discuss. Debate is good when one party is bringing something new to the table, debating is not good when it is just endless rehashing of old ground because some people can't use the search function and read through an old post. So far, there is nothing that has been said in this post that is not already said in Bink's Blog post and comments. As I said in my first post, by all means bring some WWS parses that have been meaningfully broken down to support your comments, but don't post based on faith and examples from the aether.

[e]
When I say "its a wash" I don't mean that the diference is zero, just that it is small enough not to matter.

Thesis: Submitted

 

◊ songster

Sure, but it's not impossible either, and it should be possible to get a reasonable napkin math answer.

For instance, the standout obvious factor is that mages have an execute talent, and also have by far the best scaling from percentage haste, in that it affects 100% of their damage. Rogues have no execute talents, but also scale badly from percentage haste, in that it almost exclusively affects their white damage.

Now, which other classes have execute talents, and how do these classes scale with haste? It should certainly be possible to get a yes/no answer to the proposition "Classes with execute talents tend to scale better with haste than classes without execute talents".

 

◊ Wraithlin

It would be helpful to try and quantify any effect as well.

Thesis: Submitted

 

◊ songster

Well, let's start a list. I'll go with what I know.

Class/spec	Execute?	DPS gain from 30% haste	Notes
Rogue/Mutilate	No	~20%	White damage and IP damage scale, yellow damage and DP damage do not scale except via Focused Attacks
Rogue/Combat	No	~20%	White damage and WP damage scale, yellow damage and DP damage do not scale except via Combat Potency
Rogue/Subtlety	Yes (20% bonus below 35%)	~20-30%	White damage and WP damage scale, yellow damage group-dependent - if the group crits more from haste, then HaT damage will scale with haste.

I'll fill in better results for the first two once I've had a chance to hack the relevant spreadsheet to calculate it. HaT is poorly modelled and so you won't get a better estimate.

 

◊ Wraithlin

To be even more annoying; is it possible to estimate the gain in dps (as a %age) both above and below the execute break-point.

Thesis: Submitted

 

MatsT

As you said, modelling exact numbers for the gains seems extremely complicated.

Mages definitely scales better than average with haste, since casters simply does.

Affliction warlocks is also a caster, but dots in general scales worse with haste. I'm not very familiar with affliction rotations and mechanics, but from these threads it seems that they should scale very good because of drain soul.

Warriors should scale very well with haste as long as it doesn't make them hit faster than every 1.5 seconds.

Not sure if we're gonna be able to calculate any real numbers. I suspect that the small dps gain of timing it is outweighted by easier cooldown timing. In addition, the two most important factors in most real fights is probably when you can get 40 seconds of uninterrupted dps, and when healing is most intense (i.e. can you drop a healer if you bloodlust during the most healing intense part). For a fight such as Patchwerk or Brutallus you should probably try to pop it somewhere between 35% and boss death minus 55 seconds, but for most more complicated fights no.

 

Daurs

You have calculated only the "use"able CD's as far as I see, but what about trinket procs with internal CD's and high proc chances?
Shouldn't there be a bonus for popping heroism in the beginning aswell, since then all people will get their 10 second trinket procs giving massive DPS boosts aligned with heroism aswell, while if you pop it later on during the fight, this might be the case for only half the people?

 

Endus

I would say that this is mostly because you're exaggerating the impact of Bloodlust beyond all reason, and turning a difference that isn't practically visible into one that is.

Same examination. Both do 100 DPS. Joe does +30% in Bloodlust, and +50% in Execute phase. Greg gets +20% in Bloodlust. So for Joe, the numbers are 100 (normal), 130 (normal-BL), 150 (Execute), and 180 (Execute-BL). Greg is at 100, or 120, depending on BL. Setting boss HP to 50k to reflect my lower numbers and because a 6+ minute fight as you simmed is beyond anything we're seeing, in a straight beatdown.

Bloodlust early;
40s of 130+120=10k damage.
112.5s of 100+100=22,500 damage. Boss is now at 35%
70s of 150+100= 17,500 damage, boss dies.
Total time = 222.5s

Bloodlust late;
162.5s of 100+100=32,500 damage. Boss is at 35%
40s of 180+120=12k damage
22s of 150+100=5500 damage, boss dies.
Total time = 224.5

My magic numbers show it being worse. Which just goes to show, making stuff up with no practical basis for it isn't helpful, because if you exaggerate in the right way, you can prove anything.

 

Roywyn

Thinking about the models used, it seems the important factor is whether Heroism is a bigger percentage DPS increase for a class above or below execute range. If it's all the same then the Heroism timing wouldn't matter.

Heroism is all the same to Mages, same for Rogues. Death Knights slightly prefer a late Execute, because more haste > more Killing Machine procs > more Frost crits > those (and Oblit) hits are improved by their execute abilitly.
(Warriors likely prefer a late Heroism if that gets their swing timer closer to 1.5s to allow better execute spam. I'm not sure how desirable Executing and Execute spam is right now for Warriors, however.)
Hunters and Paladins prefer an early Heroism, since their Execute ablities are on timers and woven into their cycles. So, they don't scale with haste, meaning that the absolute benefit from Heroism is always the same, hence the relative benefit is better at the beginning.

Also, Warlock Executes are getting overhauled for 3.1 and many other classes change as well. So this can easily change. Taking Shizzle's table and trying to get that information into it would look like this:

Class	spec	Execute?	DPS gain from 30% haste	Notes
Rogue	Mutilate/Combat	No	~20%	Whites damage and poisons scale, yellow damage and poisons scale via Focused/Potency
Rogue	Subtlety	+20% damage <35%	~20-30%	White damage and poisons scale, yellow damage group-dependent - if the group crits more from haste, then HaT damage will scale with haste.
Mage	Fire/Frostfire	+12% damage <35%	~27%	LB is a DoT; LB/Pyro will hit the 1s GCD cap
Mage	Arcane/Frost	No	~29/30%	Mostly 1:1 haste scaling, Arcane minorly impacted my mana cost incease
Warlock 3.1	37+ Demo	Hasted Soulfire cycles <35%	~25% above, ~30% below execute	Numbers are guesstimates; anad without pet, which doesn't matter for us
Warlock	33+ Affli	+12% (shadow) damage <35%, (Drain Soul)		Same scaling above and below Execute without Drain Soul
Hunter/Paladin		Kill Shot/Hammer of Wrath below 20%		Those have a cooldown; early Heroism is a bigger % increase (same absolute)
Death Knight	Frost	+12% IT/HB/OB/FS below 35%		Death Knights very slightly favour a late Heroism (Haste improves IT/HB/FS crit)
Warrior		Execute below 20%		Heroism scales by getting your swing timer to 1.5s so that you can Execute every GCD

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.