I think General can also be considered a fairly straight DPS fight for melee, since we won't get extra shadow crash damage. (Although if you are one of the people tasked to interrupt that can screw your DPS) And Kolo, although aoe abilities (like magma) hit 2 targets without considering adds.
I think General can also be considered a fairly straight DPS fight for melee, since we won't get extra shadow crash damage. (Although if you are one of the people tasked to interrupt that can screw your DPS) And Kolo, although aoe abilities (like magma) hit 2 targets without considering adds.
Yeah and I am always tasked with interrupting on general. We use 2 sets of 2 people and both enh shamans get used every week. Also with Kolo for large portions of the fight you are hitting 3 targets with CL, Magma, FET so it becomes severely inflated. That is why I came up with Ignis for us as only slag pot will affect us.
I don’t think we can really complain about a lack of survivability. If we really had issues we could switch talent points around to pick up 10% extra stam. We could also switch out some of our gems for Stam or AP/Stam. Of course both of these options would be a theoretical dps loss - but so is casting heals instead of lb on the MW stacks. The fact that virtually no pve shamans take these talents or gem for stam is proof that it is not a big issue. Besides – the only other fix is to switch itemization on gear for more stam which is really no different than switching a few gems.
I don’t think we can really complain about a lack of survivability. If we really had issues we could switch talent points around to pick up 10% extra stam. We could also switch out some of our gems for Stam or AP/Stam. Of course both of these options would be a theoretical dps loss - but so is casting heals instead of lb on the MW stacks. The fact that virtually no pve shamans take these talents or gem for stam is proof that it is not a big issue. Besides – the only other fix is to switch itemization on gear for more stam which is really no different than switching a few gems.
These options are DPS losses, bigger loss if we are dead, but I believe the general discussion was comparing other DPS classes that do not spec/gear/gem/enchant for any additional survivability and still remain tougher than enh.sham.
In fact on mine it's showing as being roughly equal to crit and haste atm. And the two hit trinkets (FL 10 and Yogg 25) are showing as best in slot, even with spellcapped hit rating.
Kinda late to the party but I can confirm these numbers. Mocked up a spreadsheet of my own, and even with a hit EP of 1.61 at cap [Blood of the Old God] and [Pyrite Infuser] are blowing my Greatness card out of the water. Any hit that you can drop from gems and gear would only serve to increase their value.
While I agree that our HP is lacking quite a bit I don't agree that we have damage problems.Do you have any parses of your guild doing Ignis that you can share? Here is a parse of my guild doing Ignis and I feel that my dps is quite nice considering that I am still without a 226+ MH and I only have 1 pc t8. I am interested to see what other guilds are seeing for DPS being pushed by their top DPS classes.
Also what are people using for the new hotness parse boss? Ignis seems to be the most straight forward assuming you just do the all out burn strat. And i don't believe that patchwerk cuts it anymore since the fight length is far too short. Ignis just seems to be the closest, atleast for melee, to an all out nuke fest boss.
Well, here's the latest parse I could find that actually shows the kill. I didnt do bad considering we still use the movement fight where we drag him all over the place and shatter the constructs. But every single time there's aoe, i can see my hp MUCH lower than the others. I have 20k even raid buffed... thats very low.
These options are DPS losses, bigger loss if we are dead, but I believe the general discussion was comparing other DPS classes that do not spec/gear/gem/enchant for any additional survivability and still remain tougher than enh.sham.
Here, this guy gets it, our dps is not out of line with the other melee dps that have tremendously more survivability without having to spec for survivability talents.
The ideas to gem/spec for it, don't coincide(and are retarded) with the mentality that dps classes spec for the most dps and gems for what boosts their's and the raid's damage the highest, and that is the name of the game with raiding.
I agree completely with this, 100%. Should we start a threat on blizz's official forums ? Because having 15.5khp with 2 piece t8 is just retarded when I'm below mages and priests in the raid. I think our hp with our current survivability should be somewhere between a rogue and a hunter.. so around 20k unbuffed, gasp !
This is a general shaman problem in PvE and especially in PvP. We have the lowest base hp of all classes. Even Mages have around 500 more. An easy fix would be, to change Ancestral Knowledge to 10% more Int and Stamina.
I was thinking about it last night and I realized the lower stamina is a problem, especially where it counts - new content.
Basically, if other classes have similar DPS with us, but with larger mitigation, we have two options:
1. Gem/enchant for stamina and thus be lower on DPS then them, but maybe on par with stamina
2. Gem/enchant for DPS and thus be lower on mitigation
But option 2, especially on brand new content, means that we have a lot less room to make mistakes then other classes and that we are more of a burden for healers. And this is without considering stuff like DK bubbles and rogue cloak which allows them to avoid damage when they mess up (thinking here about lava waves a la Sarth)
Also what are people using for the new hotness parse boss? Ignis seems to be the most straight forward assuming you just do the all out burn strat. And i don't believe that patchwerk cuts it anymore since the fight length is far too short. Ignis just seems to be the closest, atleast for melee, to an all out nuke fest boss.
A parse of the same boss, basically only being beaten dps wise by rogues, and the fight is long enough to not be too heavily influenced by bloodlust uptime (like PW was).
Basically, every boss in ulduar has special circumstances that either boost damage, rng boost damage, aoe twisting damage, running to and from adds, or whatever have you. Ignis is by far the least affected one, with the only factor being the slagpot, you'd think.
However, even ignis is problematic. Notice on our parse, the mages are abysmal. That's because they are the ones blowing up the adds, so some classes will fall far down based simply on this factor alone. There simply isnt a boss where everyone is standing still and nuking (and thank god for that), so if you're comparing ignis numbers, you really need to know who was doing adds.
Just try stoneclaw glyph if you keep dying. It's cost about 50dps to lost 3rd dps glyph or about 1% dps. This is best trade what you can get. We raid with two enhance shamans so there is no loss at str totem uptime but even with one the loss is very minor. 1s per 30s or 3.33%. 96.66% uptime of totem is still better than dying. My tauren still got 17159 hp without ulduar loot so don't say we have only 15k and others got 20k.
/castsequence reset=15 Stoneclaw Totem, Strength of Earth Totem
A parse of the same boss, basically only being beaten dps wise by rogues, and the fight is long enough to not be too heavily influenced by bloodlust uptime (like PW was).
Basically, every boss in ulduar has special circumstances that either boost damage, rng boost damage, aoe twisting damage, running to and from adds, or whatever have you. Ignis is by far the least affected one, with the only factor being the slagpot, you'd think.
However, even ignis is problematic. Notice on our parse, the mages are abysmal. That's because they are the ones blowing up the adds, so some classes will fall far down based simply on this factor alone. There simply isnt a boss where everyone is standing still and nuking (and thank god for that), so if you're comparing ignis numbers, you really need to know who was doing adds.
But you can very conceivably not kill the adds at all. Our strat has an OT kite the adds in a circle looping through the raid where a resto shaman has a earthbind totem down. That way all DPS gets to all out burn the boss.
Basically, every boss in ulduar has special circumstances that either boost damage, rng boost damage, aoe twisting damage, running to and from adds, or whatever have you. Ignis is by far the least affected one, with the only factor being the slagpot, you'd think.
Ignis is ok for comparing melee vs melee, but casters has no chance at all because of the Flame Jets throwing people up in the air. Even if they stop in time and don't get interrupted, they will lose large amounts of dps while in the air.
Ignis is not a good fight for damage comparison. Why? At least for us, we park everyone, including the adds right behind the boss and my magma totems hits all of them. Just going to have to face the fact that there isn't a 100%, do nothing but DPS with no gimmick/movement/adds boss in Ulduar.
Just try stoneclaw glyph if you keep dying. It's cost about 50dps to lost 3rd dps glyph or about 1% dps. This is best trade what you can get. We raid with two enhance shamans so there is no loss at str totem uptime but even with one the loss is very minor. 1s per 30s or 3.33%. 96.66% uptime of totem is still better than dying. My tauren still got 17159 hp without ulduar loot so don't say we have only 15k and others got 20k.
/castsequence reset=15 Stoneclaw Totem, Strength of Earth Totem
This is currently my course of action, I will give the macro a shot though.
2 Issues remain related to PVP and PVE survivability:
- Low Stamina, resolved thru boost to base stamina, potentially add more through gear
- Compaired to other melee DPS we have the lowest natural survivability: Plate wearers have much higher armor values through gear, Rogues have significantly higher dodge and moderately higher HP. We should fall somewhere in the middle of these groups but we fall behind, relying on glyph and self heals for survival both DPS losses.
a short list of survivability abilities, talents, for melee dps
Rogues Feint - 20 energy, 10 sec cooldown. Reduces the damage you take from area of effect attacks by 50% for 6 sec. Cloak of shadows - 90 sec cooldown. Instantly removes all existing harmful spell effects and increases your chance to resist all spells by 90% for 5 sec.
Druids Predatory Instincts - Reduces the damage you take from area of effect attacks by 30%. Barkskin - 1 minute cooldown. Reduces all damage taken by 20%. Survival Instincts - 3 minute cooldown. When activated, this ability temporarily grants you 30% of your maximum health for 20 sec while in Bear Form, Cat Form, or Dire Bear Form. After the effect expires, the health is lost.
Paladins Divine Protection - 3 minute cooldown. Reduces all damage taken by 50% for 12 sec. Once protected, the target cannot be protected by Divine Shield, Divine Protection or Hand of Protection again for 2 min. Cannot be used within 30 sec of using Avenging Wrath. Divine Shield - 5 minute cooldown. Protects the paladin from all damage and spells for 12 sec, but reduces all damage you deal by 50%. Once protected, the target cannot be protected by Divine Shield, Divine Protection or Hand of Protection again for 2 min. Cannot be used within 30 sec. of using Avenging Wrath.
Shaman Shamanistic Rage- 2 minute cooldown. Reduces all damage taken by 30% and gives your successful melee attacks a chance to regenerate mana equal to 30% of your attack power. This spell is usable while stunned. Lasts 15 sec. Wolves - 3 minute cooldown. The wolves heal themselves and the shaman for x% of damage dealt. Lasts 45 sec.
Warriors
to-do
Death-Knights
to-do
In addition, shaman are the only melee class that have an additional stat on the majority of their gear: Int. While all other melee classes typically gain benefits from the same set of stats (with DKs, paladins, and warriors benefiting from Str slightly more than AP), shamans share itemization with hunters and have a portion of their budget applied to Int. Mental Dexterity was added in order to support this itemization (as previously, shaman would wear mostly leather). Because of this additional stat, enh gear has less stamina on it than other melee classes' gear.
If the devs feel that resto and elemental hit points are around where they should be (and thus would not want to buff all shaman hp across the board), but that enh hp are too low, then they could add an additional benefit to Mental Dexterity, to convert a portion of our int into stamina. If all three specs are low, then shaman should just get a boost to stamina across the board (through a class feature, e.g.).
Finally, I don't think we should have to go out of our way to increase our survivability through extra talents, stoneclaw glyph, etc. to a similar base level that other melee dps receive without sacrificing their own dps talents.
05/05/09, 11:09 AM
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