kraken_hs

For a nice cloak option when hit capped, the new sapphiron's drapes are a good option, until you can get to the tribute chests.

10man:
Fluttering Sapphiron Drape: 48 int, 59 stam, 78 sp, 44 crit, 30 haste
25man:
Flowing Sapphiron Drape: 54 int, 66 stam, 89 sp, 50 crit, 35 haste

No socket, which is somewhat annoying, but they're decent, the 10 man is slightly worse than pennant cloak, and the 25man version is slightly better.

 

Duress

Q: Why 893 haste?

I guess I should have specified 893 from gear and 200 from the totem which totals 1093.

1093 / 32.79 = 33.33 which results in FS,LvB,LBx6...

However that number was pre-3.2.2. I wouldn't swear by it in 3.2.2, though I do believe (no evidence to support this) that a haste value of 1093 is easily achievable with non-BiS gear and that the extra 6s will complement that 6 LB rotation very well.

 

• Binkenstein

Repeat after me: there is no haste cap, there are no critical points of haste to get.

 

Duress

There is no haste cap.
There is no haste cap.

All kidding aside, I agree with you in so much as haste will always be a valuable stat. However, I believe that there are certain values at which going above them gives you trivial benefit and where any other stat would be a better replacement unless you can make a significant jump.

Connection and input latency issues aside, I believe when your LB fillers exactly match the CD on your LvB so that you're neither waiting on the LvB CD nor waiting on LB to finish when LvB CD is up, the points you've put into haste are never more valuable. Granted that there is leeway and the difference is hardly noticeable within a few points, but given the wide variety of gear, the haste valued ended at 1093 without any bias on my part to go to lower iLvls for haste. If I recall correctly I gemmed a number of the yellow sockets with Reckless King's Ambers.

On a side note, Rawr is valuing Spirit over MP5 and gains from Wrath of Air over those from Totem of Electrifying Wind I know if the ToEW is coming on and falling off throughout a fight, it messes with ones timing but the uptime I find is far beyond the breakeven.

Please let me know in a PM if you disagree or cannot duplicate my findings.

Edit: I feel as in coming into my own as a min/maxer and I will gladly post a cleaner and updated version for Horde as well as Alliance if people believe my methods are sound.

 

orion121

One thing alot of people miss is that the GCD cap (aka 33% cast time reduction) occurs at 50% haste, not 33%. As posted a few times on this forum the GCD cap is at 1270 Haste Rating assuming WoAT and Moonkin/Ret. However this number is tentative as haste continues to increase DPS (although at a lower rate) until 2540 rating assuming WoAT and Moonkin/Ret.

tl;dr

Haste Rating < 1270
SP > Haste > Crit

1270 < Haste Rating < 2540
SP >>> Haste > Crit

Haste Rating > 2540
SP > Crit

 

orion121

Scale > Eye as it adds alot of much needed complexity and control to Ele damage, the problem is that it diminishes under Heroism. End of the day, Haste > Crit.
RotU is in a league of it's own in terms of DPS, it destroys any other current trinket, especially for Elemental as mine consistently outputs more total damage then our Locks/Mages due to better synergy with CL and LO.

 

Zigizi

Search for Bink's spreadsheet. It specifically has different rankings for trinkets depending on whether or not you need the hit rating.

 

fakestreet

People seem to forget about the second part of the rotation when you refresh Flame Shock.
There is no "sweet spot" for Haste where you can fit xLB before a LvB followed by FS + xLB before another LvB because of the cast time differential.

 

Ferala

I don't know how your guild is run, but i assume most guilds don't use a dkp system for their 10p runs (so Illumination is free)(if they use dkp, they probably use a different dkp pool for 10p than for 25HM), while the best MH/Shield combo drops in 25HM and probably will cost DKP. So on your way to your BiS items it is a rly good in between item.

 

Duress

So I sort of put the theorycrafting/Rawr aside and tested out my ideas and those that I've read and radically changed the way I gear.

To that end, these 'sweet spot's i was talkng about are still nice haste values to have, but I've reattributed their signifigance to almost trivial and not worth attempting. Thanks for putting me straight.

I've actually changed my meta from the recommended Chaotic Skyflare to Ember Skflare as it doesn't require any blue gems which allows me to stack a signifcant more amount of SP and I have found that to be more beneificial than the +3% of Chaotic. I've also stopped gemming for anything but SP, except in my helm, where the choice was between +23 SP or +21 SP & +10 Haste with socket bonus. Last, I've found the SP from Glyph of ToW more beneficial than Glyph of Lava and have used this.

I used no spreadsheets or Rawr for this only hours in front of training dummies. I know they don't accurately reflect raid situations, but what can, other than a raid? I feel like I've been a bit misled by theorycrafting and Rawr as of late.

P.S. What happened to the TTT Elemental page and Bink's blog? It says I don't have permission. Is this an issue I'm having or have they been removed?

 

Moshne

Were you fully raid buffed? Was the dummy full raid debuffed? Were you flasked? How was your latency on the "intelligent" tests? Do you have logs of both bits of data? Was each session against the dummy of significant length?

If you want anyone hear to listen to you, you should probably do some actual scientific testing, anecdotes aren't welcome.

You may feel misled, but from the little bit you've posted, you are misleading others and most likely yourself. You need to ask yourself if it even makes sense. The meta change is completely illogical using elementary math. You lose 24 spell power by gemming to get the Chaotic meta requirements, while increasing the damage you deal with all crits (a large portion of your RAID buffed damage) by a quite substantial margin. If you did these tests without full raid buffs, you can expect to not see quite as large of gains.

It's much easier to make strategic moves when you aren't trying to hold your intestines in all the time. - Juice

 

WildWolfy

I was always under the assumption that as long as your running with either a Shadow Priest or a Boomkin and your Dranaei you only need 11% hit or 289 hit rating being the magic number...If you weren't raiding with a shadow priest or boomkin that night you would need 367 hit rating to be capped.

Reading Ayrlyn's post leads me to think otherwise...

I only bring this up because I also have the trinket he listed but I've been using [Living Flame] to get me at the cap and way over it... with that I'm sitting at 353 hit rating, which is too high, but if I drop it I'll at 246.

Could someone please clarify this for me? What is the hit cap for an alliance shaman with a shadow priest or boomkin spec'd into elemental precision of course...

Thanks...

 

Laurean

Alliance hitcap with spriest or boomkin ist 263 rating

 

Grymoire

From Bink's spreadsheet, [Dying Curse] is ranking higher than [Talisman of Volatile Power], even when you don't need the hit rating from it, and worth way more if you needed the hit to reach hit cap.

And funnily enough, Sundial of the Exiled is higher ranked than both of them, hence I am still running on Sundial/Abyssal combo eventhough I have got the Talisman. Going to keep that combo and try for Illustration of the Dragon Soul, Eye of the Broodmother or Embrace of the Spider. (Embrace of the Spider got a surprisingly high rank for being a ilvl 200 trinket so I am spamming Naxx for that at the moment)

 

Blaazze

It seems lately that every time I spend my DKP on gear that has mp5, someone will say, "you know ... that's a healing [fill in the blank]." So, I can't take cloth, can't take leather, dont' want spirit, and can't take mp5, apparently. I would be interested to know if anyone else is fighting this battle with their guilds (or in pugs), and how are you responding. Generally, I make two points: (1) since the patch, I have been having more difficultiy with mana management; more mp5 = more CL = more dps; and (2) my offspec is resto (altho, I only heal our raids in a dire emergency), and I can use the mp5 gear for my healing set. Are these arguments correct? or am I off base? should I ignore gear with mp5?

 

Grymoire

While spirit is 1 thing that I am careful on not to take unless I have to (like the boots that have sp and haste and 2 gem sockets but also comes with spirit), unless the sp really stands out, otherwise I will try not to take items that have spirits, most of the item that have spirits usually have a slightly better non-spirit version anyway.

However, when it comes to cloths/leather, mp5 and such, I don't look into that side of the arguement, only if it is a viable upgrade, as well as what other alternative that is out there. Ring for example, there really isn't much 89sp ring that doesn't have spirit, mp5 or resillence, so my stand on that is since those are the only viable upgrade for me, I will roll on them. If people object, I will ask them what is a viable version of what I could have got out there, if they can't answer that then they cannot object.

 

Zigizi

Of course they can object. It's not just about you, it's about improving the guild and the raid. That ring with spirit might represent a 10 dps upgrade to you, but it would represent a 15 dps upgrade to a mage or warlock.

That being said, it's up to your guild's loot distribution policy, so it's not even worth debating here.

 

Gruul

It's a tough call, but reasonable guildies will understand a sound argument can be made based on the facts that the "good parts" of an item are indeed a dps upgrade, compared to mostly wasted stats like spirit and mp5.

It's just another extension of the old spell damage vs. healing items now being all spell power. More items help more classes now. Typically caster dps only items are now scooped up by healers left and right (and yes, it still hurts my soul a little to see those "perfectly itemized for caster dps, especially elemental" SP/haste/crit items go to them, but I do of course more than understand it).

It's just that in the case you talk about, it looks more "ugly," but the fact is, whether cloth, leather, mail or including some "crap" stats like spirit and mp5, an upgrade is an upgrade.

That said, I try to balance it out and not prioritize those items as high myself. For example, I'd rather grab cloth, leather, and spirit/mp5 items that are upgrades from 10-mans or craftables myself rather than 25-mans. It's a bit of a personal policy, and yet in practice it doesn't always work out or make sense.

 

Pongmo

I think I goofed my tier gear selections.

I won the Shoulders from Heroic NRB-10 and have started using those, then I won a trophy and replaced the chest from Yogg. Upon looking things over further and how ridiculously over hitcap I would be, I think I made the error there.

From what it seems, I should have bought my ilvl 245 Helm with my first trophy, and then with subsequent trophies gone 4/5 ilvl245 and/or hopefully win the gloves/legs from voa-25 then use the Resto-spec chest piece, as its stats are a lot more desirable compared to the Elemental's chest.

Would it have made sense to do this assuming I would also be getting 157 Hit from Legs/Gloves and then a mix from my cloak/rings I would be at or over cap?

 

Caelwynar

Personally, I went with tier chest/head/gloves/shoulders, and took the leather legs from Anub-25, so I would have haste rating in every slot. All of the items in my raid set are SP/haste/hit or SP/haste/crit.

 

ogtwag

Obviously reign of the dead is the best trinket now. Assuming I get that eventually (i.e., the damn thing drops 2 more times), and knowing that so far my guild is not capable of doing 25m heroic, how do other trinkets compare for the second slot? I have eye and the haste trinket from regular toc. Is it worth trying to get scale of fates, illustration, or is eye of the broodmother good enough? I'd try to do OS every week but it is nearly impossible to get a pug together if you tell them one of the best items is reserved, and my guild rarely does ulduar any more.

 

tufy

Unliving is by far the best, but if you don't have access to Flare of Heavens or Scale of Fates, the Abyssal Rune from toc 5 normal is right behind them and actually superior to Illustration. Not bad for an easily accessible ilvl 200 trinket, is it?

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Mirnus

Do you really think Illustration isn't as good as Abyssal Rune? I use Illustration with RotU and get great results. I just don't see how 200 sp < 89 haste plus the proc.

 

Ryethe

In RAWR right now haste is coming out as a very good stat, in a lot of case equal to or better than spellpower. Going just by RAWR, yes Abyssal Rune does come out ahead of Illustration, which was probably the OP's point of reference.

 

-Abakus-

There's your mistake. Rawr is a useful tool, and I use it extensively, but realistically, IotDS will almost always beat out Abyssal Rune. Some people might think, "Why not just trust everything RAWR says?"

I've gotten RAWR to show me crit > SP, I've gotten it with the same gear to show me haste = SP, and I've gotten it to show me (again, with the same gear) SP is 2x as good as haste.

Messing around with some settings here and there makes a huge difference. It's a great tool, but if you blindly trust everything it says, then you'll end up making some mistakes with gearing.

For this particular circumstance, the trinket averages out to ~111 SP, with a static 84 haste. the DEP for haste is < SP, but even if they were equal, IotDS would still beat it out. the DEP for haste will only go down as latency is taken into account. Please don't argue about its ramp-up time, because it's easy to start with a full stack and maintain it during phase changes (by dropping Healing Stream Totem, using TStorm, etc.).