I'd prefer not to let my dps be more RNG (Rng hates me) with my luck I'll miss 3 flame shocks in a row (which I've done before.)
In other news. Anybody have some compelling way to convince a warlock that going demonology for the raid is better then going affliction for personal dps (Though if this is wrong do tell but 1000/400 dps from fire totem and 200 ish spellpower for every caster seems far better then 1-2k dps for the warlock in my eyes) (not really the palce to ask but hey)
I am making a one-in-a-million prayer post on the shaman forums to try to get some response from a blue on why the bonuses are counter-productive. If someone has simulations to back this up, it would be helpful to post. The only hope I see of getting a decent answer out of this is to have constructive posts hopefully with theory-crafting to back it up. Especially any theory-crafting showing the T10 4-piece as having a negative dps value.
I'd prefer not to let my dps be more RNG (Rng hates me) with my luck I'll miss 3 flame shocks in a row (which I've done before.)
In other news. Anybody have some compelling way to convince a warlock that going demonology for the raid is better then going affliction for personal dps (Though if this is wrong do tell but 1000/400 dps from fire totem and 200 ish spellpower for every caster seems far better then 1-2k dps for the warlock in my eyes) (not really the palce to ask but hey)
Don't get me wrong, getting at or near hit cap is important but I don't regard 2 hit rating under balanced against an 11 SP gain to be a good trade. Missing 3 flame shocks in a row with a 0,05% miss chance on each is such a ludicrously low probablilty (1 in 8,000,000,000) that it is safe to assume that it would NEVER happen during your entire time playing the game - you would need to cast a spell every second for over 100 years for it to become likely.
As for the Warlock question, I would open up the question on your guild forums. Explain the maths behind it - that you gain an average of about 900 DPS plus every caster gains about 300 DPS and your healers are better off too. Let the lock try and prove your numbers wrong. He won't be able to and all will be able to see that he is putting his personal DPS above the good of the guild. It would be like you refusing to use your ToW because it nerfed your DPS - I bet that would cause an uproar!
Yea its not gonna happen consistently but sometimes you get unlucky. Just because you are supposed to get 5 tails and 5 heads doesn't mean 10 tails is impossible.
Though it doesn't really matter because the T10 4 set profile we are arguing about I wont be using.
I could be missing something, but according to Zamir's ZAP! results on page 17, and Zimeron's simcraft results on page 18, 4t10 seems to be slightly in the lead, in terms of dps. Zamir even said,
So it seems that 4t10 is ahead (in some cases even by pure virtue of stats) in the spreadsheet - at least, using the profiles which zimeron linked. But, using the FS DoT clipping rotation method, the 4t10 bonus itself remains very weak.
I understand that using the 4t10 bonus to its full potential will not be very practical in actual play. However, since as Zamir said 4t10 still beats out 2t10+3 offset pieces in some cases even before the set bonus is calculated, why are so many people planning on skipping the 4 piece? Even if it is a dps loss on turret-style fights (which still doesn't seem to be the case anyway), it'll still be a good boost for fights with movement (which many do).
Essentially, I'm just wondering why so many people are set on the 2t10 profile. Sure, the 4t10 bonus sucks, but the stats really aren't that much worse (if at all, considering the data), and even a lackluster set bonus like our 4 set can overcome this, even when its potential is not fully utilized. Most every dps measuring tool we have suggests 4t10 is (usually) on top (albeit not by much)
Well for several reasons.
1) It will be much easier to get 277 2set/3offset (badges/264 and 277 tokens)
2) When dps truly matters its usually sit and nuke fights (brutallus) which is when I want to be doing my absolute highest possible damage.
3) I personally am pissed off at blizzard enough to not use 4set just to spite them.
4) For some reason I don't think the theories will match reality. If I'm proven wrong I'll go 4set but meh.
Well for several reasons.
1) It will be much easier to get 277 2set/3offset (badges/264 and 277 tokens)
2) When dps truly matters its usually sit and nuke fights (brutallus) which is when I want to be doing my absolute highest possible damage.
3) I personally am pissed off at blizzard enough to not use 4set just to spite them.
4) For some reason I don't think the theories will match reality. If I'm proven wrong I'll go 4set but meh.
Well, in my opinion, best-in-slot lists shouldn't be decided upon by how easily the items within are acquired. Even so, I think it would be quite a bit easier to get the 4 set (since badges will be plentiful by the time heroic is available. Tier tokens, while more highly sought for, will be far more accessible, since they drop of several bosses.)
As for your second point, my post was really arguing that this isn't the case. Both the following suggest that the 4t10 setup is superior:
Originally Posted by zimeron
Using masanbol's BIS gear sets with simulationcraft, we have some new data.
Patchwerk Style Fight:
T10_2pc = 10296 dps
T10_4pc = 10356 dps
So even on a Brutallus or Patchwerk, the 4t10 is still ahead here. To show this isn't an isolated finding, here's another confirming this.
Originally Posted by Zamir
Without actually factoring in the 4t10 set bonus itself - just using the stats - I get:
No CL or delay
+CL
+150ms
+CL + 150ms
2t10
12011
12044
10791
10791
4t10
12018
12013
10786
10789
7
31
5
2
So the stats themselves seem to be very very closely balanced. Now turning on 4t10's set bonus (only for 4t10 obviously!) the results change to:
No CL or delay
+CL
+150ms
+CL + 150ms
2t10
12011
12044
10791
10791
4t10
12033
12026
10801
10805
22
18
10
14
That's even without factoring in the set bonus. If you want to be doing your "absolute highest possible damage", then you're better off with the 4 piece (according to these, at least). If you add in the dps that the bonus provides, then it only widens this gap.
As for your third point, while I am equally upset and agree that our 4 piece bonus is completely underwhelming, I think this is a very poor reason not to use the proper equipment. However, I'm nearly 100% certain you being tongue-in-cheek, so I'll leave it be.
Your last point, however, is the most interesting. I agree that we can't realistically expect our actual rotations to resemble exactly what is being simulated. However, I don't think that a skilled player will be too far off given the right circumstances. Really, every fight you should be trying to do the best possible rotation that'll yield the highest dps. If a rotation is more difficult to execute correctly, but results in higher dps, then it's worth it in my opinion. Likewise, if this gearing choice makes us adjust our rotation to something a bit more demanding and less straightforward, then I'll adapt so long as it is optimal.
I agree on every point essentially. If a rotation is more difficult and yields more dps you better believe I'm going to do it. Just like using searing totem with its terribly range problems is annoying as hell its still essentially free 400-500 dps.
My Question is does the T10 4set profile beating the T10 2set profile actually make any sense at all? The reason you would go T10 2 set over T10 4 set is because the stats are better (trading haste for crit essentially) and yet that data is saying that even without factoring in T10 4set bonus the T10 4set profile beats the T10 2set profile based on stats alone.
I'm not even making sense to myself any more so I'll just stop.
I agree on every point essentially. If a rotation is more difficult and yields more dps you better believe I'm going to do it. Just like using searing totem with its terribly range problems is annoying as hell its still essentially free 400-500 dps.
My Question is does the T10 4set profile beating the T10 2set profile actually make any sense at all? The reason you would go T10 2 set over T10 4 set is because the stats are better (trading haste for crit essentially) and yet that data is saying that even without factoring in T10 4set bonus the T10 4set profile beats the T10 2set profile based on stats alone.
I'm not even making sense to myself any more so I'll just stop.
Its not that its a more difficult rotation (like how Kitty dps is a harder rotation then Arcane dps), but rahter, that if anything like latency or the spell-queueing system cause you to not be able to cast your spell immediately at 6.5 seconds, the value of the 4pc will drastically drop. In other words, if you are not able to take advantage of that 1.5 seconds, then the bonus is worthless.
The problem with simming it is that if you set it to the 4pc setting, it will always be able to take that extra 1.5 seconds properly... in actual gameplay, it might not be possible to do so.
Ikefury thats what I've been saying the whole time.
Kfactor I don't have a clue what you are trying at. Our rotation being "screwed with" will only happen with T10 4set because you can't fit 3 6.5 second cooldown lava bursts into 18 seconds of flame shock. T9 2set has nothing to do with it. Whether 2set/2set will beat everything else I have no idea, but I doubt it.
We've been maximizing our DPS in terms of the stats give us with or without the two-piece and four-piece T10 bonus. I have yet seen anyone post anything about including two-piece T10 and two-piece T9 for a stronger rotation. I don't have the tools to support my argument for two T10 and two T9 for BiS gear, but if we don't want to screw with our rotation, then it'd make common sense to keep two T9 pieces for our Flame Shock to last 9 seconds longer to go with our two-piece T10 set bonus.
The loss in stats from keeping ilvl 245 or even 258 T9 is too large once we're talking about 277 offset or tier pieces, so this is not a viable option.
Assuming you have access to ICC heroic content (=277 gear) in the near future, my reasoning would be as follows:
- the T10 helmet and chest are BiS pieces at this time (maybe LK loot will change it but I doubt it). This means it makes much sense to have the 2 setbonus of these pieces asap, but you have to solve the hit-deficit
- the T10 shoulder is almost same dps as the mail non-set one from Festergut. Competition for the non-set item will however be much much lower (only ele/resto shammies and potentially holy pallies) and thus easier to get. The hit-shoulder (cloth) is also available and a very good hit-stat-provider
- the T10 gloves and legs both can be replaced by better non-set items, which also have hit. Both items are cloth, so competition will be reasonably high but I expect it to be much less then the T10 tokens
- dps calculations based on static fights indicate there is almost no difference between 2set+2 non-set vs 4set pieces, where all setbonuses are included. The 4setbonus dps bonus is very situational and can be close to 0 if not applied correctly. There are however situations where it will be close to 100 dps and then the total outweighs 2set+2nonset
- Since LvB will still be the highest dps spell we have, I believe mobile fights will benefit from the 4 setbonus. I also believe 90% of all fights will have relatively high movement
My conclusion is therefore:
- 2set+2nonset is a very safe choice and much easier to get then 4 set in all scenarios. This will be my first goal. Getting 2x the 277 token will already prove very costly (+tank prio), and so will the 264 tokens which we also need now
- when dkp prices of the 277 tokens drops again, I will consider getting the 2 other setpieces since I expect to drown in frost badges by then, and I do think it will be a slight upgrade in many fights.
I am not in a rush with this however, since I think the upgrade is quite minimal and expensive
Some notes:
- since several heroic modes will prove to be very challenging, I can only expect we will replace many items with 264 gear before we get the top-notch 277 items. At 264 lvl there are also some very decent badge items (e.g. belt) which are obviously even more easy to get. This does not work in favour of getting 4 T10 fast
- I don't think keeping 2 T9 is any option considering the large dps differences between T9 and the 277 items (and it's also a crap dps bonus since we often refresh it earlier anyway because of movement). However, they can be ok transition items if you have 258 setpieces and the 264 setpieces pieces are hard to get to for you. Personally I already gave up on T9 and will replace my 3rd T9 item when I get my T10 helmet. Once you have solved the hit-problem, it is too easy to find nonset pieces that are better then 4x T10 (even if I would have had the badges for it) on the short term
Ikefury, I agree that it'll be very easy to lose value on the 4t10 set bonus, but the value of the set bonus won't be "worthless" if you miss out on the exact moment your LvB comes off cooldown.
Just using imaginary numbers, consider the following:
If 4t10 is worth, say, 10 dps theoretically if used exactly at the 6.5s mark, then it would be worth 0 if you used LvB after 8 sec rather than 6.5. However, if you got it at 7s, then you're still casting 1s earlier than normal, so you're still benefiting from 66% of the set bonus. In such a situation, 4t10 might be worth 6.6 dps instead of 10.
The above is all true for stationary fights. Fights with movement will benefit additionally from a shorter LvB cd. Since LvB is our highest dpsc nuke, and more of our filler will be cut out since we'll be moving during the CD, the set bonus will increase our dps more for these fights than having the 2t10 set would.
However, looking back at Zamir's table that I quoted that does not factor in the set bonus, the difference between the 2t10 and the 4t10 sets prior to calculating the set bonuses is mostly within the single digits. So, my conclusion is that even if you only benefit from a fraction of the 4t10's potential, as lackluster as it may be, it's still a dps increase. And when I say it's a dps increase, I mean it's a dps increase in its worst possible situation - namely a stationary fight. The dps benefit of 4t10 goes without saying (despite me explaining it above) on movement fights.
By the way, Zamir's table that factors in the set bonuses would have the 4t10 set as even further ahead if he used the Glyph of Lava in that setup (which is a better choice for the 4t10 build).
So from reading what's been posted, the conclusions I've come to are:
-Using 2t10 has superior stats, but the stats found of the 4t10 set are very close behind (within 10 dps)
-The 4t10 bonus sucks. However, even the marginal dps increase will surpass the ~10 dps loss of using slightly worse itemized tier gear on stationary fights
-High-movement fights provide a higher return on the 4t10 bonus relative to what dps you would gain from the 2t10 set
-If all of the above is true, then 4t10 seems to be better than 2t10 in most cases
-Because of the two sets are very close prior to factoring in the 4t10, it seems likely that the above will still be true even if the 4t10 bonus isn't used to its full potential (eg. casting LvB at 7 seconds instead of 6.5)
I got to looking at the new patterns from the Ashen Verdict and noticed pretty nice 264 pants and boots. With the high cost of primodial saronites (~1600g/each), do you think making either of these would be wise in regards to the current loot available and the time until hard modes (277 loot).
By the way, Zamir's table that factors in the set bonuses would have the 4t10 set as even further ahead if he used the Glyph of Lava in that setup (which is a better choice for the 4t10 build).
It's true that with certain combinations of stats/settings ZAP! does rate Glyph of Lava as slightly better for 4t10 than Glyph of ToW. But I'd be nervous of actually equipping Glyph of Lava for the reasons that you stated - that is, we won't always get the full benefit of the cooldown reduction, and it's precisely that benefit which can nudge Glyph of Lava above Glyph of ToW. This is a bit different from the situation with 4t9, because that was increased damage on every Lava Burst rather than increased frequency of Lava Bursts. If we're not getting that increased frequency (or perhaps I should say increased ratio of LvB:other casts, as movement should still favour the Lava glyph and AoE/fire totems should still favour the ToW glyph), Glyph of ToW could remain a better choice.
My opinion of getting the 4t10 bonus for myself is that it will depend on how it feels to play. I really don't like the idea of deliberately clipping Flame Shocks early, even if it's only once every 4 or 5 casts - it seems awkward and silly. I like the idea of having a fraction of a second to determine whether Lava Burst will crit or not, which will probably end up being decided by latency more than skill, even less. If this translates into "more challenging but with more damage potential", then fair enough. If it translates into "awkward, counter-intuitive and risky" then I would be interested in avoiding the 4-piece if I could. As you imply, though, Abakus, if the stats seem superior in and of themselves then the bonus is something we could effectively ignore if we don't like it and yet still benefit from in certain situations.
At least the DPS difference between the 2pc and 4pc sets seems marginal enough that opting to miss out on 4t10 seems like a valid personal preference choice, in the same way that some players choose non-standard glyph setups for their own reasons.
Of course, we may end up trying 4t10 in game and finding that it's simply lovely, and the issue may evaporate.
Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies you will not find another.
"The val’kyrs spawned by the Nibelung staff will now always hit with their smite attack and their damage has been increased for both normal and heroic versions of the staff." This was listed under today's hotfixes. Is this change large enough to make it more competitive with sword and board? (Or would the underlying problem be the low proc rate and the possibility of the valkyr dying to aoe?)
I would also note that the staff only has 2 gem slots, which may it make it even less valuable then stated in previous posts (which were made with the assumption there were 3).
Dunno if it was reported elsewhere, but I accidentally used EM in a cross server heroic (granted, 4 people from the group were guildies, but there WAS a 5th from somewhere else), and it had the normal 3 minute cooldown, not the 7 day nonsense.
Dunno if it was reported elsewhere, but I accidentally used EM in a cross server heroic (granted, 4 people from the group were guildies, but there WAS a 5th from somewhere else), and it had the normal 3 minute cooldown, not the 7 day nonsense.
Ya, that issue seems to be fixed.
On another note [Horrific Flesh Epaulets] appears NOT to have the spirit beast animation, it seems to only be on set shoulders(Iv been running around since Tuesday with them on and haven't seen it, whereas if I rent the set shoulders they appear in ~2min).
Dunno if it was reported elsewhere, but I accidentally used EM in a cross server heroic (granted, 4 people from the group were guildies, but there WAS a 5th from somewhere else), and it had the normal 3 minute cooldown, not the 7 day nonsense.
Yeah, I have been using it in cross server groups for over a week without any problems so far.
In the next minor content patch we're making a change to the tier-10 elemental shaman 4-piece set bonus. In addition to lowering Lava Burst's cooldown, this bonus also no longer requires Flame Shock to be present in order for Lava Burst to be a guaranteed critical strike.
Clipping issue with flame shock shouldn't be a problem now.
In the next minor content patch we're making a change to the tier-10 elemental shaman 4-piece set bonus. In addition to lowering Lava Burst's cooldown, this bonus also no longer requires Flame Shock to be present in order for Lava Burst to be a guaranteed critical strike.
Clipping issue with flame shock shouldn't be a problem now.
Only one of the a few issues, and frankly the least of them imo.
In the next minor content patch we're making a change to the tier-10 elemental shaman 4-piece set bonus. In addition to lowering Lava Burst's cooldown, this bonus also no longer requires Flame Shock to be present in order for Lava Burst to be a guaranteed critical strike.
Clipping issue with flame shock shouldn't be a problem now.
Well, this removes the "risk" factor associated with the slightly higher DPS normal priority method that SimulationCraft uses, and also removes the need for ever refreshing FS early; in that sense it's a very welcome change. However as even using that method the bonus rates lower than nerfed 4t9, it's not a significant change to the bonus's DPS. Furthermore, all previous concerns about the difficulty of extracting the full benefit from that lower cooldown remain. (I'll need to change the way ZAP! does 4t10, but thanks to SimulationCraft we already know what the DPS value will be.)
Flame Shock will still be worth casting and keeping a high uptime on (even unglyphed it's way higher DPSC than LB), but we won't be required to use it on mobs that are going to die quickly just to get a LvB crit. Even so it should still be worth casting Flame Shock on anything that will suffer 3 ticks or more.
So, reaction: I'm pleased that the biggest issue with the set bonus will be fixed. But it's a shame that the low damage value or other aspects of its "fragility" are not being addressed, especially with elemental PvE DPS in such a questionable place right now. It also continues to work against the 2-piece, but this should never result in lower DPS either in theory or in practice thanks to the Flame Shock interaction change.
Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies you will not find another.
I have a question about some trinkets i am using i currently have the trinket out of toc25 that gives u haste on use and the trinket you get from triumph badges i was told to use a trinket from toc5 norm instead of the trinket out of 25m because of the passive haste and chance on hit effect now why would i want that when the toc25 trinket gives me haste on use and gives more and also give me more crit
01/01/10, 7:12 AM
