We recognize that the bug might not, and very likely is not, reproducible on the dummies. The problem is that we need to make sure we understand how our relatively simple abilities work (the multipliers on Lava Burst etc.) After we are sure we understand them, we can start looking for other culprits, if there are any.
I started to hear of this "low crits" problem some time ago, but never really thought much of it, didn't feel like I was having any problem with my Lava Bursts. But today on Ignis, I had ~4k SP (trinket procs) and my LvB crit for just 10k. This was in the heat of the moment, so I didn't really check if there was a reason to it, like partial resist or even missing CoE, but my LvB had generally seemed low the whole raid.
Recently, I've been working on this addon here. In it, I've added some debug code to it which will calculate the expected damage range a spell should hit for, and then report if the actual spell hit outside this range. Could be interesting to turn this debug code on during a raid, just to see if there are any problems.
Hmph, I wish I had read this before writing a little addon to figure this thing out. I haven't been able to test it in a raid yet but everything seems to be working correctly...including Lava Burst.
Anyway, here it is. It assumes that you're using CSD as your meta and it doesn't support Thunderfall Totem, but otherwise it's fairly accurate.
Did some testing with some spare time I had this morning.
All gear should be the same as listed in my armory, no weapon buffs or totems down and I cancelaura'd every trinket proc and elemental mastery.
I did some testing of my own just to see what each talent would do to the damage without any gear on. Only thing used was Water Shield (W/ WS Glyph), and Mana Spring Totem. I exited and deleted my combatlog after every upload.
This WWS is base with no talents and no gear. Wow Web Stats
Next was with 5 points into Concussion. Still no gear. Wow Web Stats
5 points into Convection and Concussion. No gear worn. Wow Web Stats
5 points into Convection and Concussion 3 points into Call of Flame. No gear. Wow Web Stats
5 points into Convection, Concussion, Elemental Fury, and 3 points into Call of Flame. Wow Web Stats
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. Reason for going so low so fast is because TECH those talents shouldn't effect LvB. Also I did 2 tests after this, 1 with keeping Elemental Focus up, one without. Only reason I did this is because we have no clue is to what is doing it, so I did all variables possible to see if there was any side effects. I will also be doing this with Elemental Oath later on. Wow Web Stats w/ Elemental Focus Wow Web Stats w/o Elemental Focus
This next part will have 4 different WWS, each with different variables. 1 with Elemental Focus and Elemental Oath, 1 without either, 1 with just Elemental Focus, and 1 with just Elemental Oath.
To me overall it doesn't seem nothing effects it with raw stats. Hope this helps in figuring out the issue, cause I've definitely noticed it myself in 25 mans when trinkets proc and I still have low LvB hits. If anything I think it might be caused by everyone changing from Glyph of Lava to Totem of Wrath Glyph.
Summary: Having tested basic LvB function, and the 4-pc T7 bonus, both are working entirely normally. Based on basic testing Dual-specc also showed no problems.
All tests were done with:
- CSD meta-gem
- 5/5 Concussion, 3/3 Call of Flame, 3/3 Lava flows, 5/5 Shamanism
- Both trinkets removed
- Using the L80 Grandmaster's training dummy
- No Glyph of Lava in either specc
- No FT buff or any totems dropped
I will show the predicted hits based on the current understanding of LvB and my actual numbers for each test. I can see no discrepancy whatsoever. I did do slightly less than the 50 casts suggested originally, but you can check out the WWS for details.
Test 1
2064 spellpower
Min. normal hit:
Theoretical - 3090, Actual - 3095
Max. normal hit
Theoretical - 3452, Actual - 3446
Min. crit
Theoretical - 6864, Actual - 6871
Max crit
Theoretical - 7668, Actual - 7662
- 2050 spellpower
- Added 4-pc T7 bonus. Also switched to my secondary specc. This is an Ele PVP specc, so still has all the talents shown above, and lacks nothing that should change LvB damage. (I realise its slightly bad science to change two variables at once, and if I had found any weird results I would have tested further in isolation).
Min. normal hit:
Theoretical - 3079, Actual - 3082
Max. normal hit
Theoretical - 3440, Actual - 3427
Min. crit
Theoretical - 7001, Actual - 7063
Max crit
Theoretical - 7823, Actual - 7820
I can't see a thing wrong myself, although I didn't particularly expect to either. My result with the highest variance from its theoretical limit is the "min crit" on test 2, but even then its actually too high rather than too low, and in no way inconsistent with the understood mechanics of the spell. At first glance the average damage done also looks fine.
I am beginning to get a funny feeling we won't get to the bottom of this, but time will tell. Hopefully when a few more items on Bink's original list are tested then maybe more scrutiny can be given to the raid environment.
I`ve done some rough testing directly after the Patch came...
Char is: Chotek / Rat von Dalaran EU
So I don`t like how every Shaman think`s that he can test the Problem, because a lot of the Shaman community is simply not affected by these Bug.
So we had a lot of really bad discussions on the German Forums about the Bug and if it`s all in our Heads.
But in fact there HAS to be some significantly wrong.
My observations and Tests were far from professionell and showed off real great loss of DPS.
So to be somewhat more exactly:
On the Boss Dummy in Orgrimmar i`ve done Pre Patch Easy 4,5k+ DPS
After the Patch its drastically sunken down to 2,7-3,3k and even if i pull Trinkets/Bloodlust etc.
i don`t top 3,7 wich is silly. > WITH NO CHANGES TO ANYTHING OF MY CHARAKTER
(Except Dual Skill but that seems to has not necessarily causing problems cause a bunch of Shamans without Dualspec claiming to have those DPS losses too)
In Naxxramas 25 it was not that Dramatic, but this is belonging to the AoE Damage.
In Bossfights my DPS was about 2,5-3k wich is far from before and only
the AoE Damage of Totem/CL/Thunder so i could Manage a Overall DPS of ~ 3,8-3,9k instead of the Usual 4,2-4,6k
And i can`t stand it any longer, that people do playing it down, that we just are trying to get a Buff.
Lava Burst seems just to be the Skill wich let it be seen the easiest way.
So for LvB ...
I see, that the crit range of it is way high, so you can geht a gap of 5-6k or such.
BUT if i ALWAYS hit for 9-14k sometimes even more especially in Raid enviroment, and the other day the "sometimes" shifted to 10k... then i can even without mathematic work claim that there is something really wrong.
I got ~ 2,4k SP Selfbuffed and on Dummy i don`t Manage to get over 10.xxxk even with Trinkets.
And before the Patch it were about 12-13k easy to achieve.
Then GC mentioned that the Mage "scorch" change of Critchance could have lowered our DPS a lot...
Eh maybe the overall DPS, but not the Damage of Single Skills itself.
to be clear > 5% Critchance don`t make my LvB Hit vor more Damage.
I have the Theory that some Talents are not working correctly, i had respecced a lot of times, and a really strange thing had happened.
I had the Idea of Spending Points slow point after point to look how Damage increases, and if i naive as i am can see some little Changes through this.
My Damage has gone up, and up, and then as i reached Shamanism my Damage was as it was before, at this Moment i had the Skill-Window open and had all Points spend except Thunderstorm and as i Spend this Point and Shut the Window it collapses again...
And then i tried it again, and it worked out the same way, but as i`ve filled in the Last Point it kicked out all Talents following Tier 3 ... very Strange. BUT this would account for the Damage Loss, if the 3-4 Talents affecting LvB are not correctly working maybe because of that out Spike Damages are suffering (Lava Flows 24% higher Critical Hits etc.)
> Another Sign about some Talents not working was ~4k Spelldamage about Buffs/Trinket Proc etc. and i Hit for 10k.. thats just silly.
They Point in LvB is that it`s the Drive of the Shaman, so the feel of it was, every time i cast a LvB my DPS rises...
and now with those low crits i can let go of spending LvB`s because it lowers DPS even.
And NO ONE not even GC can say that Shaman DPS is just a bit behind cause of the other Classes are now bit more powerfull. Cause if i look around all my Shaman friends are suffering a lot of shame that they scratch at the lower end of the Meters, even after they usually have topped them.
Examples:
In my Raid, wich runs Naxx25 constantly with the same Damagedealers at Top End, i always worked around 1. and 2.
After Patch i hardliy managed 5. (and it turned out to be the Single Target Boss DPS that sucked )
> a overall 1k loss but at Boss DPS even 1,5k
> And it`s a perfect Simulation because all Conditions were the same.
Another Shaman in the Top raid i newly joined with my Resto Druid, is facing exactly the same Problems, hes a friend wich stood hours with me at the Dummy`s and where about same DPS at the Dummy before the Patch, and he now is always at 14.-16. in the Meters with 2,5k DPS... and we both have no changes made @ our Charakters.
So i hope you can find the Problems, but please keep in Mind that it is possible that your Charakter do not have this Problem.
So a lot of Shaman`s in EU forums claim that they doing fine as before the Patches and the same amount says that everything is as i described it.
Sincerely your Grym
Edit: ah an adition even if it`s just repeating already known/said things:
With my Top Gear i do LvB even vor 5k... as i lastly tried it was about 6/8/10
(the 5k was lowest i`ve seen in longer testing)
Ah and i edited some of the bad spelling/grammar ./facepalm
None of the shamans here that have not experienced the problem have said that there is definitely no problem. The testing done on the target dummies has been to demonstrate that we understand the mechanics of how the spell should work and that there have been no changes made without our knowledge.
What we need now is solid combat log evidence of when there is a problem so we can analyse it and reach a definite conclusion rather than having to rely on anecdotal evidence. If you or just one of your shaman friends would care to provide a log we will look at it and identify whether or not the claims are justified. It’s a simple as that.
Even if you don’t have access to WWS or the like yourself, you can still record the log. Type /combatlog at the start of a raid (or target dummy test) to start recording and /combatlog again at the end to stop recording. Then Upload your log (found in your World of Warcraft\Logs directory) and provide us with a link. We are very keen to see such logs and if you provide us with such evidence we will be very grateful.
This is getting somewhat old. All it takes to prove the existence of a bug is ONE WWS showing a Lava Burst hitting for below the theoretical minimum value (without getting partally resisted). Since no one has been able to produce such evidence, I'm seriously doubting the bug exists.
This is getting somewhat old. All it takes to prove the existence of a bug is ONE WWS showing a Lava Burst hitting for below the theoretical minimum value (without getting partally resisted). Since no one has been able to produce such evidence, I'm seriously doubting the bug exists.
Sorry MatsT I have to take issue with your statement.
The bug could be present without impacting the theoretical minimum/maximum, just because the hits fall within range does not mean there isn't a problem, it just means that the bounds are correct and the issue may lie elsewhere.
For some time now I've had the nagging feeling that the problem is in the distribution of crits along the min/max damage range.
If previously the distribution was skewed towards the top end and now it is skewed towards the bottom end we could see exactly the results we are getting now, with the same baffling results we are getting.
One Problem i actually facing is, that i joined a new more dedicated Guild wich needed me as a Resto Dude, so my former Raidchar wich was even a bit better equipt, so i am no longer running any raids with my shaman.
The Decision was easy made, with that problem (dmg low) at hand, and a good chance to get in there.
So but what i can try is, to wws log some Dummy testings and post the links here. i ask myself how this acutally gets done correct but i will find out.
But it`s as easy as it is, if you have a constant Damageoutput you always done on Dummys/Raids and with a Patch the other day its gone dramatically low, then you have to be blind to not notice it.
Uh i wonder if i not have any Fraps captured Video to provide.
The idea of this thread is to do proper, repeatable, testing and analysis. I may have quibbled slightly over the methodology, but even so, its far more useful to re-test the base mechanics of Lava Burst, than to put up personal anecdotes of your own experiences, however convincing they are to you.
I can't really see it as being likely that this bug has somehow broken the RNG for LvB and LvB alone, so I think the crit distribution angle is an unlikely one. Trying to find a hit outside the min/max range is still the most reliable way forward. It also seems highly unlikely that the bug has affected some shamans but not others for no discernible reason. If it was just affecting dual-specced shamans, fair enough, but to say it seems to randomly pick out some but not others, suggest the bug is actually just in some people's heads.
In the interests of actually finding this bug, and of keeping this thread unlocked, could people please try and keep it constructive. If you are so convinced the bug is apparent every time you log your shaman, then we don't want to read a 200-word description of your woes, we want to see your numbers.
But it`s as easy as it is, if you have a constant Damageoutput you always done on Dummys/Raids and with a Patch the other day its gone dramatically low, then you have to be blind to not notice it.
I’m sorry but it is not that easy. Let’s examine one of your earlier anecdotal claims:
Originally Posted by Grymloq
On the Boss Dummy in Orgrimmar I’ve done Pre Patch Easy 4,5k+ DPS. After the Patch its drastically sunken down to 2,7-3,3k and even if i pull Trinkets/Bloodlust etc.i don`t top 3,7 wich is silly.
Personally, I have higher SP, crit and haste than you and the only time I got around 4.5k self buffed was in a 40 sec BL test. So here is the problem. You have quoted one figure in an uncontrolled, unspecified situation and compared it to a lower number in another uncontrolled, unspecified situation and taken this as evidence of a problem - it is not.
I am not casting doubt on your word, just demonstrating how easy it is to doubt people’s numbers when they are obtained in a non controlled manner.
Regarding the posts concerning crit distribution, I find that to be clutching at straws. People have claimed that they are getting LvB crits below the minimum and are not reaching the maximums they did previously, yet when challenged to provide solid evidence have singularly failed to do so. To now change the angle of attack to an entirely different problem seems a little desperate. Nonetheless, it should still be quite possible to identify the problem if that is where it lies – just bring some evidence to the table!
@ Agash yes maybe im a bit off the road, its surely very likely that the 4,5k+ are in the Bloodlust Test, but wether or not, as i said too, now the Top End is 3,3k wich is with all burning.
Sorry i get often a bit overdriven *g*
I will get ingame and do some testing, maybe it had something to do with dualspec maybe not, but i will try to get some Infos up.
As a goof I dumped every LvB in a recent Naxx run. I was analyzing the distribution of hits when I ran across a VERY low LvB crit, low even for a non crit.
1:59'55.438 Annelida Lava Burst hits Death Knight Understudy #3 for 2577 Fire. (Critical)
Only caveat is that the Understudies do behave oddly for damage, but that crit is WAY out of the expected range.
Just for the record, the results of my analysis showed a tremendous amount of variation, much more than I had expected with a range from 8k to as high as 13.75k (excluding Thad), but this was a lazy retro night so buffs and debuffs were kind of random.
Distribution on Bosses (ex Thad) brackets are truncated damage in steps of 250:
A simple search for Death Knigh Understudy on wowhead show them having this spell. As for the local maxima, I agree that they are almost certainly the result of different buff, debuff and procc combinations.
And as for the distribution being uneven, that seems extremely unlikely. I'm quite confident the random number is sufficiently random. If someone has a large distribution of Lava Bursts casted with the exact same buffs, this should be easy to see.
As a goof I dumped every LvB in a recent Naxx run. I was analyzing the distribution of hits when I ran across a VERY low LvB crit, low even for a non crit.
As for procc/buff combinations, they are very important to Lava Burst, and make it very easy to see huge variations in damage done without any bug. For example, fully raid buffed, and with a fully charged IotDS and a Dying Curse procc, I should have a maximum LvB of ~13950. If clearcasting wasn't up, Earth and Moon fell off and Dying Curse didn't procc, that drops to ~9750. Thats a huge variation. The sort of variation that could easily get those who don't know spell mechanics think something is bugged.
I am not familiar with death knight effects, but I do know that resists and absorbs show up on the combat log. I suppose it is possible that the boneshield might still have been up, the MC'ing priest, however, did not release the understudy until the bone shield had expired a fact I clearly recall as she took a little heat over vent for not releasing sooner.
Be that as it may, the damage on those guys after the boss dies can be quite wonky.
I am not familiar with death knight effects, but I do know that resists and absorbs show up on the combat log. I suppose it is possible that the boneshield might still have been up, the MC'ing priest, however, did not release the understudy until the bone shield had expired a fact I clearly recall as she took a little heat over vent for not releasing sooner.
Be that as it may, the damage on those guys after the boss dies can be quite wonky.
After/as the boss dies he casts Hopeless - Spell - World of Warcraft on the adds (there is a typo, its "to" not "by"). Its not a bug or any sort of wonkyness, its an intended mechanic to end the fight quickly.
I imagine you could find out by examining the combat log if the shield was up on the add. Personally I find a LvB hitting for ~75% less than normal on a mob with a 75% damage reduction ability less than totally convincing evidence
...
As for procc/buff combinations, they are very important to Lava Burst, and make it very easy to see huge variations in damage done without any bug. For example, fully raid buffed, and with a fully charged IotDS and a Dying Curse procc, I should have a maximum LvB of ~13950. If clearcasting wasn't up, Earth and Moon fell off and Dying Curse didn't procc, that drops to ~9750. Thats a huge variation. The sort of variation that could easily get those who don't know spell mechanics think something is bugged.
Agreed ... I was just posting for informational purposes as I'd taken the time out to clean up the log file. Observation had led me to expect a wide distribution - I was just surprised by how varied it is.
I’ll have a proper look after raid tonight but the Understudy did have Bone armour up at the time of that LvB Crit:
Having said that though, this is exactly the kind of information we need – I hope more people will come up with the same.
Is it possible the spell was cast before the shield fell off, and thus even though it was actually off when the spell hit, it was still mitigated as it would have been at the moment it was cast?
Is it possible the spell was cast before the shield fell off, and thus even though it was actually off when the spell hit, it was still mitigated as it would have been at the moment it was cast?
Not sure if that's how LvB works or not.
As the LvB landed 2.5 secs before the Bone Armour was removed it's a moot point - the amour was definately in effect at the time the LvB was cast and when it landed.
Summary: Having tested basic LvB function, and the 4-pc T7 bonus, both are working entirely normally. Based on basic testing Dual-specc also showed no problems.
<snip>
I can't see a thing wrong myself, although I didn't particularly expect to either. My result with the highest variance from its theoretical limit is the "min crit" on test 2, but even then its actually too high rather than too low, and in no way inconsistent with the understood mechanics of the spell. At first glance the average damage done also looks fine.
I am beginning to get a funny feeling we won't get to the bottom of this, but time will tell. Hopefully when a few more items on Bink's original list are tested then maybe more scrutiny can be given to the raid environment.
So your saying the 4pc T7 bonus (of 10% crit damage) is worth 7823-7668=155 theoretical or 7820-7662=158 actual damage per max hit. And that's working as intended, ok. 10% of even the difference between a non-crit and a crit should be ~300 and that's according to your data.
05/09/09, 11:33 AM
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