That is right. But we have to take the additional 25% Crit for LHW (and the 25% higher chance for AH) into account. This equals the nerf i think.
Only if you didn't have a 100% AH uptime before - which shouldn't be an issue when you're dedicated main tank healer. The increased crit obviously makes it easier to keep AH on the MT if you are raid healing and to keep AH on two or more tanks at the same time.
Only if you didn't have a 100% AH uptime before - which shouldn't be an issue when you're dedicated main tank healer. The increased crit obviously makes it easier to keep AH on the MT if you are raid healing and to keep AH on two or more tanks at the same time.
That is what I meant. I don't se me in the role of pure Tank healing. The changes make it easier to keep the buff 100% up to the tank during raid healing just with sniping a RT/LHW at him. This is the reason why I said before, that i like these changes. They are making us more flexible. Because if I am forced to Tank heal I am stuck to this role a bit. This always made me feel a litte uncomfortable. This is my personal point of view, because I understand Shaman as Healers with good Tankheal opportunities but focus on the Raid.
With IWS now working with CH, all of our crits will return mana, similar to Illumination. The obvious question is, Can I replace mp5 with crit and retain my same mana regen. The answer is NO. MP5 provides more regen per itemization point in all cases. If we can't get enough regen via Int and Crit, we will have to add MP5. Looking at the current itemization, 1 MP5 = 2.28-2.66 Crit (based on rare gems). Call it 2.5 with rounding. With the increase of MP5 by 25% in the next patch, the itemization will be around 2.0 crit for every point of mp5.
There are difficulties in calculating crit regen vs MP5. MP5 is always on. Crit can only happen when you cast. The faster you cast, the more crits you will get. And the Cast Rate <> Cast Time. While you might be able to cast CH in 2.0s, you'll never cast 30x CH in 60 seconds in a raid. The chart below is for Cast Rate, which is Cast Time plus some time for movement, lag, etc.
The numbers for LHW/RT/HW have not changed with the next patch, but I have included them for comparison. I'm using 440 mana return from IWS. I'm also making assumptions on how CH works with IWS. I am assuming that if multiple jumps crit, each can proc IWS.
Cast Rate
1.0s -
1.5s -
2.0s -
2.5s -
3.0s
CH 1T
6.96
10.43
13.91
17.39
20.87
CH 2T
3.48
5.22
6.96
8.70
10.43
CH 3T
2.32
3.48
4.64
5.80
6.96
CH 4T
1.74
2.61
3.48
4.35
5.22
LHW
3.48
5.22
6.96
8.7
10.43
HW/RT
2.09
3.13
4.17
5.22
6.22
From here, we can see that casting CH every 2.5s, hitting all 4 targets, each point of MP5 equals 4.35 points of crit. If I drop 10 MP5, I'd need to pick up 43 points of crit to keep the same regen.
Looking at the current itemization, 1 MP5 = 2.28-2.66 Crit (based on rare gems). Call it 2.5 with rounding. With the increase of MP5 by 25% in the next patch, the itemization will be around 2.0 crit for every point of mp5.
Just to confirm your numbers, according to WoWWiki, 1 point in mp5 costs 2.5 item level budget points. Crit, like all base attributes, costs 1 point.
RT has again 25% chance to crit with the above stats, LHW has a 50% chance to crit due to tidal waves, thats an average 41% chance to proc WS every 1.5 s which would be 1 proc every 3.65 seconds @ 440 mana which is 602mp5 or 1506 budget points which again a 5th of which would be 300 budget points compared to 229.
With the PTR not even out, and things likely to change, I avoided trying to determine what your total regen would be. Everyone's stats and raid buffs are different. Instead, I was focusing just on the equivalence of a point of Crit vs a point of MP5. I wanted to know if we got better regen via stacking Crit instead of MP5. I good example is the head enchant, where we can choose 8 mp5 or 20 crit. If 20 crit provides the same regen as 8 mp5, then we choose crit for obvious reasons.
To read the chart, if I am spam-casting CH every 2.0s, and it hits 3 targets on average, the number is 4.64. That means I can replace each point of MP5 with 4.64 Crit and retain the same mana regen. Or, thinking of the head enchant, the 20 crit provides 4.31 MP5 (20/4.64).
With the PTR not even out, and things likely to change, I avoided trying to determine what your total regen would be. Everyone's stats and raid buffs are different. Instead, I was focusing just on the equivalence of a point of Crit vs a point of MP5. I wanted to know if we got better regen via stacking Crit instead of MP5. I good example is the head enchant, where we can choose 8 mp5 or 20 crit. If 20 crit provides the same regen as 8 mp5, then we choose crit for obvious reasons.
To read the chart, if I am spam-casting CH every 2.0s, and it hits 3 targets on average, the number is 4.64. That means I can replace each point of MP5 with 4.64 Crit and retain the same mana regen. Or, thinking of the head enchant, the 20 crit provides 4.31 MP5 (20/4.64).
Thats true if all we look at is regen, but you also have to look at HPS increases based upon crit as well.
Numbers:
Assume 40% raid buffed crit (easily attainable).
Assume 1.25s GCD
Assume 1.4s HW w/TW
Assume 1.8s CH with T8-4 piece
Assume your spam casting. (not sure how to calculate the value of IWS when not casting since its basically zero)
Assume you never run out of mana
Assumw 2 hits per chain heal on average
RT/LHW/LHW
((0.4*100%)*440)+(2*((0.65*66%)*440))=553.52 mana *(5/3.75)=737.33 mp5 (repeating of course)
RT/HW/HW
((0.4*100%)*440)+(2*((0.4*100%)*440))=528 mana * (5/4.05s)=651.85 mp5
CH spam
(0.4*30%*2)*440=105 mana *(5/1.8s)= 293 MP5
I dont have the cost to cast each spell in front of me at work, but if someone could post them, I could do a HPM and HPS comparrison for each of those combos (as well as RT-LHW-LHW-CH-LHW-LHW and maybe even RT- CH where you RT off the tank and assume you hit 1 melee per cast)
The thing is when you look at HPM crit is going to doubler dip. You get 50% more healing from crit AND the cost is less. Of course HPS is just as important right now, especially considering our burst problems in Ulduar in hard modes. The thing I would like to verify is my assumption that RT/HW/HW will be uber with HPS and RT/LHW/LHW will be our bestoption for HPM. And also where CH spam sits there.
Does anyone have an old HPS/HPM spreadsheet we could adapt to look at these numbers?
Consider these numbers a quick back-of-envelope calculations, not double checked.
Assumptions 3000 SP, 40% crit rate, TW always up, all relevant talents, 1.25s GCD, 1.4s HW (the numbers Sprout gave)
LHW
4880
LHW/crit
7321
LHW/AA
2196
LHW Average
7894
LHW+ES
5856
LHW/crit
8785
LHW/AA
2636
LHW Average
9473
HW
11940
HW/crit
17911
HW/AA
5373
HW Average
16478
LHW HPM
18.65
LHW+ES HPM
22.38
HW HPM
17.93
LHW HPS
6315
LHW+ES HPS
7578
HW HPS
11770
LHW is our quicker, more efficient spell. HW is our big throughput spell.
Thanks for the numbers V, but I think you need to include RT in there. If you dont the HPM and HPS numbers are skewed. If you assume TW up 100% then you have to assume RT/LJW/LHW or CH/LHW/LHW. Thats why I wanted to use a spreadsheet to look at the HPM/HPs value . that doesnt even take into account the various totems involved.
It is 8 yards on live. It does seem like a very meager increase in jump distance.
Apparently lots of people are believing this. It is untrue. CH jumps 10 yards on live. I tested two ways:
1) Using /ranged set to 10 yards, standing just outside 10 yards = no jump, just inside 10 yards = jump;
2) Using GOHL pally: Just outside 10 yards neither GOHL nor CH works. Just inside 10 yards, CH jumps but no GOHL heal. Move even closer and I get both CH jumps and GOHL jumps.
Apparently lots of people are believing this. It is untrue. CH jumps 10 yards on live. I tested two ways:
1) Using /ranged set to 10 yards, standing just outside 10 yards = no jump, just inside 10 yards = jump;
2) Using GOHL pally: Just outside 10 yards neither GOHL nor CH works. Just inside 10 yards, CH jumps but no GOHL heal. Move even closer and I get both CH jumps and GOHL jumps.
Chain heal is 10 yards on live.
I'd assume that's due to character sizes. A tauren has a larger hitbox area than, for example, a gnome has. I guess that could be a factor that changes it. Yes, this means Horde Shaman have more effective CHs due to tauren being huge. In either circumstance, 10 yards is not enough. 15 would be sufficient but as I've previously stated, I prefer MT healing. It has a certain glamour that raid healing doesn't.
I'm not very strong in math, but given that IWS will have a chance to proc from Chain Heal- won't CH+LHW+LHW be more efficient for mana and healing throughput on fights where you can stand still and deal with somewhat steady damage?
While it takes slightly longer to cast through it, Riptide is still fairly weak for it's mana cost and only affects a single target.
Chain Heal will most often hit 2 targets with it's range upgraded (slightly) and IWS procs will compensate for the slightly higher mana cost- meaning Chain Heal crushes Riptide for throughput and efficiency.
Riptide now becomes relegated to our on-the-move heal almost exclusively, and only occasionally for the moments where we need an instant heal to save someone (which it barely will).
I'd just like to see the HPS/HPM/cast-times for CH+LHWx2 vs. RT+LHWx2 rotations if anyone more gifted with numbers would oblige.
I'd assume that's due to character sizes. A tauren has a larger hitbox area than, for example, a gnome has. I guess that could be a factor that changes it. Yes, this means Horde Shaman have more effective CHs due to tauren being huge. In either circumstance, 10 yards is not enough. 15 would be sufficient
It has nothing to do with character sizes. It's as true for BElf as it is for Tauren, and by that logic the same effect would apply to Glyphed HL jumps as well. Plus, even tauren aren't 2 yards larger than gnomes.
CH is 10 yards.
Edited to add: one of the few times model size matters is when you're wondering about VERTICAL issues, since almost all activities are measured from the center of the 3d sprite. If I remember correctly early on, Blizz had a lot of problems because they measured LOS from the feet. Anyway, that's why gnomes get put into 'swimming' sooner than a taller model. But it wouldn't make a gnome closer or further from a model, since that's measured from the center. (Additionally, I vaguely recall a patch note about them fixing gnome swimming issues, but that's a hazy feeling more than a direct recollection. (edit: yes, 2.1))
I'm guessing 2 pc t9 and 2 pc t8 will be best. There's no way you'd give up t8 4pc, 0.2 seconds is too much haste to give up. Also, the "supposed" relic doesn't look that attractive either, the S7 LHW relic is probably more useful. Of course, it's datamined but it's a little dissapointing. I was hoping for some haste bonus to CH, or crit chance to LHW/HW.
Also, Tidal Waves has always given HW/LHW increased spellpower values.
I was actually hoping for a relic to benefit Riptide. Druids had one in Ulduar for Nourish; granted, Nourish is pretty shit as far as I know, but still. Something to boost the SP on either the direct heal or the periodic healing would have been swell.
Edit- Still early, could be changed, all that stuff.
The set bonuses are datamined and definitely placeholders... iirc the T8 bonuses were datamined before Ulduar and they weren't very good either.
The totem may be it's final effect, which isn't bad... I'd definitely take a spellpower boost over a mana reduction or healing increase on a single spell...
It has nothing to do with character sizes. It's as true for BElf as it is for Tauren, and by that logic the same effect would apply to Glyphed HL jumps as well. Plus, even tauren aren't 2 yards larger than gnomes.
Not that that would be the first time GC has been incorrect, if it is in fact 10 yards. Either way, the range should be upped to more than 10 yards just because even if that is further than what a boss may require a group to spread, it leaves absolutely no breathing room. We (and the players we cast it on) have to be practically robotic for CH to be constantly hitting 3/4 targets in an encounter that requires spreading out.
Last edited by Felixalias : 06/23/09 at 7:40 PM.
Reason: clarification
I'm not very strong in math, but given that IWS will have a chance to proc from Chain Heal- won't CH+LHW+LHW be more efficient for mana and healing throughput on fights where you can stand still and deal with somewhat steady damage?
While it takes slightly longer to cast through it, Riptide is still fairly weak for it's mana cost and only affects a single target.
Chain Heal will most often hit 2 targets with it's range upgraded (slightly) and IWS procs will compensate for the slightly higher mana cost- meaning Chain Heal crushes Riptide for throughput and efficiency.
Riptide now becomes relegated to our on-the-move heal almost exclusively, and only occasionally for the moments where we need an instant heal to save someone (which it barely will).
I'd just like to see the HPS/HPM/cast-times for CH+LHWx2 vs. RT+LHWx2 rotations if anyone more gifted with numbers would oblige.
This is why I make spread sheets :-) I'll add in CH / LHW / LHW rotation since I already had RT / LHW / LHW. If other people would like to see particular math its more than likely I can add it to my sheet quickly.
The set bonuses are datamined and definitely placeholders... iirc the T8 bonuses were datamined before Ulduar and they weren't very good either.
The totem may be it's final effect, which isn't bad... I'd definitely take a spellpower boost over a mana reduction or healing increase on a single spell...
Actually the T8 bonuses were as advertised, even though they were data mined months before Ulduar was released.
Generally speaking, the only [PH] figures typically found on data mined info are numerical values (usually of the timed variety..%s etc.)
Not that that would be the first time GC has been incorrect, if it is in fact 10 yards. Either way, the range should be upped to more than 10 yards just because even if that is further than what a boss may require a group to spread, it leaves absolutely no breathing room. We (and the players we cast it on) have to be practically robotic for CH to be constantly hitting 3/4 targets in an encounter that requires spreading out.
Yes, that's my thread.
I was also working off data from an earlier GC comment in which he indicated part of the 3.1 problem with distance is that we use 10 yard range checks by default even though many effects are 8 yards, hence we'd be fine. So:
New Testing Data:
1) DBM Range Check for 10 yards is based off duel distance on the unit frame (remember, there's no direct API distance utility), or something close to that.
2) You can /duel from further than the user interface will let you select duel
3) The only reliable in-game range test are in-game abilities.
RESULTS:
1) Pally judgments reach SLIGHTLY further than Chain heal
2) I can take a small step forward and get chain heal jumps
3) I can be in range of Chain Heal and well out of range for Glyph of Holy Light
4) Glyph of Holy Light is proccing well within /duel distance
5) CH Heals will bounce further than holy light
Meta conclusions:
I'm not entirely sure nothing changed, as while I was just testing I had some situations where nobody moved and CH jumps changed. But nothing I can do to prove it.
Practical Conclusions for the Status Quo
UI for /duel is at 8 yards
Command line for /duel is 10 yards CH is ever so slightly above 8 yards Glyph of Holy Light is WELL BELOW 8 yards.
DBM Range Check for 10 yards is actually 8 yards
DBM Range Check for 11 yards is actually about 9 yards
The 15 yard range check is the same as bandage ability
Earthbind is not a 10 yard effect: I can use pally jugdments and not get affected by the snare effect
Magma Totem is not an 8 yard effect: I can CH outside the sprite of the totem and bounce to someone not being hit by its effect.
Practical Suggestions:
1) In 3.2 build raids for "close but not touching" on the DBM 10 yard distance check. This will have you in range for CH jumps.
2) Continue to 'heal edges' to get the maximum bounce effect.
Many of these discrepancies are probably due to the differences between unit center and model edge. Different spells use different models for this, and there are usually two models involved, your own and the target. For example, Frostbolt will start counting at your model edge while arcane explosion will hit targets within range from your center. There doesn't seem to be any real logic behind this system, and it has been changed a few times for pvp reasons (taurens meleeing through pillars).
I would assume that if DBM uses 8/9 yards instead of 10/11, they do so specifically because of measuring edge-to-edge instead of center-to-center or center-to-edge. When standing 9.99 yards apart center-to-center the 8 yard jump of chain heal would be enough to jump since edge-to-edge distance is 7.99 yards. If new distance is 10 yards it should jump ~12 yards in center-to-center distance.
I don't understand why so many people seems to discover HW with this patch note. For tank healing the change is rather small : from +18% to +24%. The buff is already always here when using the talented spell on a tank.
I think the HW change is in order to enable big heal on the raid for random target for very injury abilities.
Abotu tank healing, the main change I see is the water shield. When you are tank healing, it is always a risk to use a gcd doing something else, and each second without the watershield is a risk to finish oom before the end.
06/22/09, 5:47 AM
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