World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis <--- my guild's heroic 25 Anub'arak kill. We basically had 2 melee groups with 2 enhance shamans neither of us using HST or Wolves in P3 and just getting healed by JoL LotP and generally sitting at around 1k health for the entire phase (well, starting at around 24 or 25%, takes a little time to fall that low). We lust at the start of P3 and burn the shit out of him.

We could have used wolves to counter-act penetrating cold, but we instead just used HS OR Frost Prot Potion. The wolves in P3 remained an, OH SHIT I JUST GOT A 3rd PENETRATING COLD cooldown that was not required to be used. We had a mod coded in-guild for our healers that marked people with penetrating cold and assigned 2 marks per penetrating cold healer, so reaction time for healing it and making sure everyone with the debuff was guaranteed a healer sealed the deal.

I think we had a minute or something left on the enrage timer when we got the kill. I forget and am in a rush to leave + lazy so w/e as to the exact time.

Removed as I found an answer elsewhere.

1300 SP is on the low side Rouncer is 1494 without raid buffs, so we are looking at nearer 2000 with FT imbue & totem etc and 25% spell crit is amazingly low, raid buffed its going to be nearer the 40% mark surely. Also metagem gives +3% bonus crit which is multiplied by Elemental Fury giving 1.06 co-efficient not 1.03.
All this makes a dramatic difference to your figures...

ES base damage = (872+2000*0.3858)*1.05 = 1726 and with SS debuff & crits that's
ES = 1726*1.28(1+0.40*1.06) = 3146 which seems reasonable for an average ES in a raid.

FS base damage (500+2000*0.2142 + 834+2000*0.6)*1.05 = 928 (initial) + 2034 (dot) = 2962

So without the FS glyph FS is clearly stuggling against ES note you must compare the ES that can crit with the FS that doesn't to get your base as that is reality. FS crits are only with the gylph.

With the glyph...

FS = 928 + 2034(1+0.40*1.06) = 3824 (NB. you gave the initial damage the crit in your calc when its the dots that can crit with glyph).

Now FS with the glyph is looking attractive. Without not so much. I'm not sure if reverb might affect things either.

I'll give a disclaimer though. Its gone 4am here and I've spend the evening testing and updating ShockAndAwe to release v5.00 so I've possibly missed something in my calcs too.


[e] given a crit rating and SP value it would actually be possible to give a rule of thumb as to what level of crit & SP form the equal point in dmg between FS & ES. These figures for break even crit & SP would be a good addition to the TTT when we can work them out. Naturally with two variables a small table might be required eg: 1% crit intervals from 30-40% and SP in second column?

Initial hit from Flame Shock can crit without the glyph, the glyph only affects the DoT portion. I've seen 4k spellpower during raid encounters from procs and everything so really this isn't worth working out from a straight math angle and really just need to get the Sim updated to handle Flame Shock properly so we can get a proper answer.

Edit looking at tonight's Algalon.

Earth Shock - 82 hits and 56 crits = 138 casts for 733553 damage so 5316 damage per cast
Flame Shock (unglyphed) - 27 hits and 19 crits = 46 casts for a total of 269876 damage or an average of 5867 damage per cast.

It would seem to be worth using even without the glyph. As for the value of the glyph, not sure yet but I would bet it would be worth it for the third slot.

If you scrolled down a bit from my post you would have seen this which is assuming more realistic stats (raid buffed).

It does however counts the meta as 3% and not 6%.

Anyway thanks for taking the time to double check me.

Its actually to my mind entirely good that we try to actually do the maths on what is a very straightforward comparison, we just need to ensure we have all the factors included. If we can agreed that we have covered every base and included every bonus component then we can get a simple formula. This formula can then be used to provide a simple table based on crit level and thus produce a graph.

WoW guys actual physical theorycrafting rather than waiting for the sim to be updated who'd have thought we'd get back to doing that

Therefore who's up for checking and double checking the formula quoted to ensure we have the right results and can produce a simple graph for the TTT.

I just took my last 10 man raid's boss kills and compared my Earth Shock average damage to what Flame Shock did (using a castsequence macro of FS-ES-ES) and Earth Shock averaged more damage per cast. This is due to lost DoT tick damage, if every Flame Shock had all of it's ticks then it would have done more damage.

I was using Lightning Shield glyph (which simplifies the math) and that glyph was worth 71155 damage over the entire run. If I had been using Flame Shock glyph instead of LS (counting on a 44% spell crit rate established from my flametongue damage that run and 109% crits with the meta) it would have been worth 68356 damage.

So using the castsequence macro seems to be a dps loss and using the FS glyph is most likely a dps loss. However, using FS when you can be certain to get all ticks on a target or when the SS debuff is not active is a dps increase even without the glyph.

When the sim is updated we will know for sure but for me I won't be using the FS glyph and I will stick to only using FS when the target is definitely going to live for more then 18 seconds.

Why are you clipping your FS? If it more damage per cast, simply reapply it after it expires. Even if it is 3-4 seconds without FS, it is still more damage then casting ES.

I never clipped a single FS. That's impossible to do with the castsequence macro. The reason I lost DoT ticks was because things died before the DoT had a chance to tick to the end.

I want the sim to work so I can test with more convenience, but several hours worth of 10+ mins of testing each time on TB target dummy had FS glyph being a dps loss for me. i don't know if this would change if i had raid buffs, but that's why I'm waiting for the sim. I found FS being in the rotation to be a dps increase, however, but obviously FS wasn't being clipped. I wouldn't bother with it on trash but for long fights if you want to add some complexity, it seemed to work. I had bigger issues testing the Totem of Quaking Earth vs Electrifying Wind. Need sim update!

I did it. seemed that FS will practiaclly always be better.
With 2000 SP you will need a crit chance of 70% or more to have ES equal or better then FS. A shaman with 2500 SP will need will need about 74% crit chance.

FS comes out superior even if the shaman has huge crit and tiny SP, like 50% crit will need only 617 SP to have both shocks worth the same.

FS scales better with SP and ES scales better with crit. If you consider the glyph then FS will probably always be better.

Posting this graph is pretty useless IMO, think we can better use a graph showing the damage diffrence between FS and ES based on SP and crit maybe?

I'm not convinced that haste is better, I've always gone with the rationale that stacking AP also increases spellpower. There for my melee and spell attacks hit harder. I have 1x 20 Haste gem in my BP because I can't find someone on the server that has the AP/Crit cut. :P

Norml, you should sim with the gear/stats you current have to determine which gems will benefit you the most. This is the most accurate way to increase your dps instead of just guessing which gems will make you hit harder.

What do you think of buffing your ghostwolves with the new leatherworking drums? (8% to all attributes and unskilled druid buff), can anyone clarify if it's worth it or not?, or how much dmg this will approximately add to them?

In response to the person asking why others aren't gemming for haste:

I have run numerous sims with EnhSim using my current gear setup (check: Vodkatonic on Lightbringer), and in literally every single simulation I've run from the time I was in Full T7 to now, where I'm in almost exclusively 226-245 ilevel gear, the 20 AP + 10 Crit gem has provided me the most DPS, and in the case of having to use the 1 blue gem for meta activation, the crit + stamina gem also shows in sims to be the most benefit to me. I have chosen to always gem with Wicked Ametrine, except in the case of the blue gem, where I will use crit + stamina (right now I'm using expertise + stamina in order to reach the cap).

Unless there is an overwhelming majority of people who will say and show why they believe any other gem is better than AP + Crit, I have to say that all of the evidence I've collected on my own char's DPS has shown that Wicked Ametrine is our best gem.

AP is our best gem except when it is hit or when it is haste or it is crit.

There are only two best gems.

Hit is your best gem until you are at or above the spell hit cap.
Expertise is your best gem until you are at or just below 6.5% dodge reduction.

After that it really will depend on all your other gear as to what gem will give you, personally, the most dps. That's what Rawr and EnhSim are there for so there is no need for an overwhelming majority to tell you anything.

With the new sim out I ran some tests and it seems that incorporating FS to the rotation yields DPS bonus of about 30 dps without clipping the DoT, and about 20 DPS when allowing clipping of the last tick, as opposed to the common belief that ES > FS if you clip the last tick.

Perhaps the info regarding the viability of FS should be added to the TTT?