in my gear atm(4 piece T9) im using the following Glyphs: Lava, LB and FS and im getting still getting 10k crits on LB and 13+ Crits on LvB compared to my 4piece t8.5 which i wouldnt always break 10k on LvB. Im still using Totem of hex because i need to finish ToC today so i can get enough emblems to rent my iLevel 245 totem. Im hitting around 4500+ depending on the fight and what i have to do. Since i got my t9 ive been out DPSing the other Ele shammy which was putting me to shame before. Im wondering if Switching FS glyph to ToW in 3.2.2 would be the right thing, i havent done the math, but are the crits going to be much more important than the 87(or whatever much) SP ToW gives.
T9 4piece and you're hitting 4500? I'm assuming that's your low point on high movement fights?
yea, high movement fights annoy me and fights with a lot of adds dont help either. its not all about the "OMFG EPIC DEEPS BRO" boss mechanics outweigh ur epic deeps. Lower DPS > No DPS due to the fact that you died from Legion Flame cuz u wanted to get another cast off so u can top the charts. Fights in which i can sit there and keep hittin my little buttons make me happy but 5/5 fights in ToC Require a fairly good amount of movement. brb switching to Enh so i can stay in Melee range.
Fun Exciting Question Time: Assuming resulting damage was the same, which would you prefer: a CL on every CD rotation, or a CL After LvB rotation?
For Bonus Points (TM) guess which rotation will do more damage in an average 6 min stand-and-shoot fight.
For even more Bonus Points (TM) predict which potion we'll be using after 3.2.2 is released (no cheating peole from #stratfu)
PS: post here rather than sending me PMs like Erlaya did. These are more conversational points than a Sekret Trivia Game
Fun Exciting Question Time: Assuming resulting damage was the same, which would you prefer: a CL on every CD rotation, or a CL After LvB rotation?
For Bonus Points (TM) guess which rotation will do more damage in an average 6 min stand-and-shoot fight.
For even more Bonus Points (TM) predict which potion we'll be using after 3.2.2 is released (no cheating peole from #stratfu)
PS: post here rather than sending me PMs like Erlaya did. These are more conversational points than a Sekret Trivia Game
Oooh - I like games!
For me the preference is CL after LvB. 3 simple reasons - It's easier, it cost less mana and due to my haste rating, using 2 CLs between LvBs leaves me 0.24 secs (minus latency losses) short of the LvB CD whereas using 1 takes me just 0.11s over. For those reasons, I believe the CL after LvB is the higher damage in a 6 min fight.
As for the potion, I would say (guess) that Wild Magic would be the one. With much tighter restrictions on our mana, and with the potion of speed taking me below GCD cap on FS, LVB and CL, the option of using Wild magic 'feels' like a better choice - better mana efficiency and consumption and no GCD issues.
I could be way off the mark as I haven't really got round to looking at this in detail but someone has to answer so that Bink can shower us all with his munificent wisdom!
Does his sim include the 1s GCD hasted cap in its calculations? I'm finding this GCD cap to be a right pain in the butt for a ceiling of evil diminished returns as I'm scaling up with haste on a spec/class already notorious for scaling problems ><
I think it will definitely be worth using CL on cooldown.
But with the haste totem and BL my CL is down to around 0,85 and my LB around 1,1 (I think) meaning that CL while using BL is mostly a waste or am I wrong here?
a) IF the end result damage is the same, CL after LvB rotation will be better due to the mana usage CL now requires.
b) I think CL at every CD will do more damage on a standard 6min stand alone fight however cutting CL during BL might also be a good idea especially if CL takes you to below GCD.
c) after 3.22, if we going to introduce CL back into the rotation (whether it is every CD or after LvB rotation), I think Wild Magic pot will be better off as Speed pot likely to take CL below GCD.
Agash is an earlier riser than I, but I concur with his thoughts/analysis. I can easily see mana becoming a restricting factor in fights with a liberal use of CL. Yes, beat me up here too, but I find a somewhat fixed rotation of CL after LvB easier to administer, especially while trying to coordinate the efforts of 9/24 other folks.
Like Agash, I would also assume that Wild Magic would be better, especially given the already high levels of haste on current raid level gear.
Fun Exciting Question Time: Assuming resulting damage was the same, which would you prefer: a CL on every CD rotation, or a CL After LvB rotation?
For Bonus Points (TM) guess which rotation will do more damage in an average 6 min stand-and-shoot fight.
For even more Bonus Points (TM) predict which potion we'll be using after 3.2.2 is released (no cheating peole from #stratfu)
I would say CL every cooldown, because it finally would make play more interesting to manage more cooldowns efficiently and have a priority system. Now they only should change LB glyph to work for CL as well
The Bonus points I have to go that I hope it is CL every cooldown, for earlier mentioned reasons.
For the extra bonus points I might consider an out of the box potion. Maybe because of the mana loss by using CL every cooldown it might even be Mana potion
Disclaimer:
No theorycrafting inside, just hopes and feelings :P
Fun Exciting Question Time: Assuming resulting damage was the same, which would you prefer: a CL on every CD rotation, or a CL After LvB rotation?
For Bonus Points (TM) guess which rotation will do more damage in an average 6 min stand-and-shoot fight.
For even more Bonus Points (TM) predict which potion we'll be using after 3.2.2 is released (no cheating peole from #stratfu)
1, CL after LvB. It's less mana.
2, I see what you did there. If it's the same damage, then it's the same damage. (mana? See answer of 1)
3, Depends, how many spell you want to cast that's under 1s already. (e.g. if you answered a, to question 1 - Wild Magic, if b, - Haste.)
I suspect the potion question is going to be Wild Magic during Heroism, as it was pretty close before using it vs. Haste out of Heroism. Seems like adding another 1.0ish spell will push Speed out.
As for the rotation, I have a hard time believing the two methods could actually be the same. CL is either higher damage per GCD than LB (making us use it) or its not (making us not with exception to rotational concerns.) If using it once per LvB is better at any haste level, (meaning its not tied to rotational concerns) it would make me seriously consider the model.
I suspect the potion question is going to be Wild Magic during Heroism, as it was pretty close before using it vs. Haste out of Heroism. Seems like adding another 1.0ish spell will push Speed out.
As for the rotation, I have a hard time believing the two methods could actually be the same. CL is either higher damage per GCD than LB (making us use it) or its not (making us not with exception to rotational concerns.) If using it once per LvB is better at any haste level, (meaning its not tied to rotational concerns) it would make me seriously consider the model.
Running SEIC, wild magic was putting out like 500-700 more dps then speed was during bl without using cl.
Running SEIC, wild magic was putting out like 500-700 more dps then speed was during bl without using cl.
That is obvious, I mean it is close running Wild Magic during Heroism vs. Speed OUTSIDE of Heroism. Running Speed during Heroism is obviously illogical.
My point was that having more ~1.0 spell spells OUTSIDE Heroism makes Speed OUTSIDE Heroism less useful than before, making Wild Magic DURING Heroism relatively more valuable than it was before.
1) Using CL every cooldown is a much more interesting rotation, and will probably result in higher dps
1a) Using CL after LvB will probably be better on fights where mana is a concern (Mana detonation, or something like Kaz'rogal
2) I'm guessing CL on CD will only be marginally higher dps on non-cleave fights
3) Wild Magic - because of the coeff. increase, more CC uptime, and ~1000 haste (incl. totem) not being uncommon in high-end gear. Also - Flame shock dot will benefit from the crit from Wild Magic because of the glyph change.
#1 was more of a preference question than anything else. I'm going to go with CL after LvB because....
#2 was a trick question! The overall DPS of both rotations is roughly the same, assuming you use your CL rotation of choice until you reach a point where a No CL rotation for the rest of the fight will leave you almost OOM at the end of it. Still got to do a comparison to see whether active use of TS is worth it or not.
#3 has a surprise answer: Runic Mana. While Wild Magic would be logical, it still only increases overall dps by ~28, vs the 34 odd from a mana potion. This is fairly consistent for both rotation types.
Also, I've set up CL rotation choices in and out of heroism, and a No CL Hero is about 120 less than a CL using hero, while normally it's around 300 or so.
So assuming infinite mana, a CL on cooldown rotation would be best? I ask this because of your disclaimer.
...assuming you use your CL rotation of choice until you reach a point where a No CL rotation for the rest of the fight will leave you almost OOM at the end of it.
this leads me to believe if we never reach a point where a No CL rotation must be used to avoid OOMing, then we should use it as much as we can, correct? Another hint I get suggesting this is your potion suggestion. The extra mana would surely only give us more room for Chain Lightning in our rotation. I could be misreading your quote, however
Basically what I'm getting from your update is:
1) use CL as much as your mana permits
2) the use of CL after LvB helps sustain our mana pool because of CC(and thus our use of CL)
3) it's better to use Runic Mana to fuel extra CLs rather than a dps pot which might result in fewer CLs overall
4) the use of TS is TBA
For the first point, yes, that is correct. A flat CL based rotation will result in going OOM in all bar the shortest fights, so using some No CL time will extend your DPS time, and thus your overall damage.
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) All my calculations are done with 100% replenishment uptime and TS used every 50 seconds. Obviously less regen will result in lower CL use and thus lower damage.
but for certain fights (i.e. Heroic Anub, Heroic Valkyrs) I already use CL every cooldown. I thunderstorm for Valkyrs when I run to switch portals/dodge orbs, and WS procs when I fail at orb dodging. For Anub, phase 2 is sometimes pretty good for regening mana, and using TS.
On those fights, I already use CL every CD for cleave damage, and I use a dps pot. I suppose for real in-game situations, we'll likely have more mana sustainability than the model since every fight isn't like patchwerk, so more aggressive rotations are likely, and will likely also be combined with dps pots.
One last thing: For those of use who dont' use the Thunderstorm minor glyph, I'd suggest carrying around a stack in your bag. I find the knockback useful if used intelligently on some fights, but for the ones where mana is a concern, it'll be an invaluable regen tool.
a) Convection moves from an Optional talent to a Required one (goodbye Elemental Warding!),
b) Water shield glyph moves from nothing to at least recommended (what are the options anyway - water breathing?),
c) now mp5 on gear is slightly above worthless, and
d) TS should be prioritized in 'movement phases' over FS refresh (generally).
Not really. What you have to ask yourself is how much damage you'd get with spellpower, haste or even crit that you could have had instead of the mp5 and if you used lightning bolts instead. The item points required for mp5 is what kills this option.
Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.
Not really. What you have to ask yourself is how much damage you'd get with spellpower, haste or even crit that you could have had instead of the mp5 and if you used lightning bolts instead. The item points required for mp5 is what kills this option.
I hate to reduce the argument to semantics but "slightly above worthless" seems to describe mana5 perfectly. No one suggested it would trump crit/haste/sp (unless you're having serious mana issues, read: pvp spec). At the end of the day DPS based stats are likely to still be vastly superior if you simply play your mana / fight mechanics effectively but mana5 will allow you more potion options, fewer thunderstorms and lower necessary WS up-time (read: Free GCD's).
Current stat value, assuming standard spec and raid buffs: nil
3.2.2 stat value, assuming standard spec and raid buffs: low
Not really. What you have to ask yourself is how much damage you'd get with spellpower, haste or even crit that you could have had instead of the mp5 and if you used lightning bolts instead. The item points required for mp5 is what kills this option.
Well at least I can drop my blues sp/stam for sp/mp5, and I guess we'd have a less disgusted look at the mp5 figure on that ToC ring. Is it even possible that fitting theses gems in more blue sockets if socket bonus are appealing would be worth it ?
I guess besides a few fights where the pushback part of TS is actually useful, glyphing minor TS for PvE is gonna be a better option than it was so far. On cleave fights would using minor glyphed TS on CD (being in melee range of the cleave pack that is) actually be an improvement to DPS (both for the AoE damage it does and the mana gain it provides to fuel on-CD CL) ? Same goes for magma totem (if several elems in raid) ?
09/18/09, 12:30 PM
I see what you did there. If it's the same damage, then it's the same damage. (mana? See answer of 1)
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