tarrick

There was a discussion about the same thing several months ago in this thread:

[Elemental] Rotations

The general conclusion was that LO definitely does not have the full proc chance (20% at the time) on a single jump of CL. However, the exact mechanic was not pinpointed due to the proposed possible calculations providing extremely close outcomes and would require a very tight margin of error to identify. It is generally safe to say that a full 3 bounces of CL has a 33% chance to proc LO.

 

-Abakus-

rather than doing something difficult like this, they should just make it 33% on the initial hit, and have the other 2 jumps give no special benefit. I.E. 33% on spell cast (no miss), rather than 11% on spell hit.

 

Ikefury

This change was made during Bliz's phase of 'We dont want you casting CL on single targets' they went through a long while back. We knew about it then, it just didnt matter.

As I'm pretty sure it doesnt now, seeing as Bink advocates using CL on cd and such, and I doubt he forgot about that change to LO.

 

• Binkenstein

It's probably best to go LvB - LB - CL for that reason, but in terms of calculating damage it's easier to just go LvB - CL.

What crack are you smoking?

Flametongue = 2% crit = not that valuable. The four glyphs to use are LB, FS, LvB & ToW. The "numbers" are already out, and aren't actually X + Y, they're just stand alone values. The reason why 2T8 and 2T9 aren't a good combination is that 2T8 is ~130 dps and 2T9 is ~60, but 4T8 is ~180. There's ~120 dps that needs to be made up there, and it's going to be fairly impossible to do that via stats alone (unless you're doing some 8.0 -> T9 258 change).

"That young girl is one of the least benightedly unintelligent organic life forms it has been my profound lack of pleasure not to be able to avoid meeting"
Marvin, The Paranoid Android, from Life, the Universe, and Everything by Douglas Adams

<Birdemani> I feel dirty. I wanted to run a pug voa tonight and used a gear score in /1 to get an invite. But I have no idea what my score is so I just made up some number above 6000 and got 10 invites.

 

Jessie

Any thoughts on switching Totem of Hex in for Totem of Electrifying Wind during heroism?

Edit: Faulty memory had me fiddling with completely backwards calculations for haste times. Bink has it correct below.

When we look at you we don't even see the testicles on your chin. We see the testicles in your heart.

 

• Binkenstein

No. You'll need ~42% haste to hit 1 second LBs under all three effects.

2/1.05/1.03/1.3 =1.4225 or 42.25% haste. This translates roughly to 1300 haste rating.

"That young girl is one of the least benightedly unintelligent organic life forms it has been my profound lack of pleasure not to be able to avoid meeting"
Marvin, The Paranoid Android, from Life, the Universe, and Everything by Douglas Adams

<Birdemani> I feel dirty. I wanted to run a pug voa tonight and used a gear score in /1 to get an invite. But I have no idea what my score is so I just made up some number above 6000 and got 10 invites.

 

Jessie

Who would've thought taking a few weeks off of WoW would destroy my ability to do simple math. Haven't had the opportunity to confirm in game for a while, and I think I fool myself into thinking my math was right because I was remembering cast times with an extra 340 haste from Hyperspeed Accelerators. Even though I'm sure haste values will continue to climb in ICC, it seems unlikely that we'll run into that 1300 haste number w/o that glove enchant or Potion of Speed, which have alternatives and don't last long enough to justify the gcds spent switching totems.

When we look at you we don't even see the testicles on your chin. We see the testicles in your heart.

 

MatsT

This isn't exactly new information. Chain Lightning has the third of the procc rate on a single target and this information has been in the TTT for months if not years.

 

Oldboltsides

Couple Questions.

First:
Do those numbers still stand after 3.2.2's 5% buff to shamanism? If no, whats the new cutoff to switch from glyph of tow to lava for 4pc t9?

Second:
With CL on cd incorporated into my rotation, what are the new haste plateaus to aim for so my rotation isnt so clunky?

 

• Binkenstein

1) see: [Elemental] SEIC Spreadsheet - v3
2) In short: No. In long: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (translated: there are no haste plateaus)

"That young girl is one of the least benightedly unintelligent organic life forms it has been my profound lack of pleasure not to be able to avoid meeting"
Marvin, The Paranoid Android, from Life, the Universe, and Everything by Douglas Adams

<Birdemani> I feel dirty. I wanted to run a pug voa tonight and used a gear score in /1 to get an invite. But I have no idea what my score is so I just made up some number above 6000 and got 10 invites.

 

drakonslair

Subjectively I am not sure I like chain lightning in our rotation, the mana cost is extremely heavy even with CC I found. Testing on dummies was just useless as my dps varied more due to my LB crits than anything else I did. I could see that the average damage on both spells were coming out roughly the same so dps wise CL would win but Im not sure I managed to get more spells in during a set period of time for it to matter.

I found it work better at just cutting down the gaps between LvB and LBs so with my haste I ended up doing:
FS, LvB, LB, CL, LBx4, LvB, LBx5 and getting somewhat more consistent results than trying to applying it after every LvB but then you are back into a fixed rotation more or less.

Like I said this is entirely subjective just wondering if anyone else experienced the same or not. I was expecting to see an obvious difference considering the mana cost but came away a bit Meh about it.

 

Boondok

I noticed a fairly significant dps increase, and I was using CL just about every cooldown, but I probably used it about every 4 seconds because I clipped the CD with LB spam. I'll post a WoL in a bit, but heavy CL spam is maintainable with proper use of TS and mana potions (Yes, they are the best potion as of 3.2.2, see one of Bink's more recent posts if you have any doubt).

 

Oldboltsides

I tend to agree here. I was also using CL on cd, except for when lvb cooled down before it, and noticed a marked increase over just lightning bolt spamming or CL after lvbs.

As for the mana intensiveness of the rotation, at least in my gear, it was chewing through a lot more mana than before 3.2.2 (obviously), but i never reached the point where i needed to mana pot. In fact, i dont think i dropped below 30% mana if i was good about thunderstorming when moving or between phases. So, I enjoyed continued use wild magic pots thanks to imp bow, water shield, replenish, etc.

 

Laurean

Thanks for the info. I think I did fairly good with 6.2k Dps on northrend beasts hrad today - and 5.5k dps on Jaraxxus hard - I really hate that flames^^.

The actual point was: Is the manacost of a spell being calcalated when you start to cast it, or when it finishes to cast/starts flying away from you?
As I read it is calculated when you finish your actual dast, so it makes sense that yoa cast Lb after LvB and then CL to smooth your ratotion.
But be aware of your mana
I managed to have 3% of mana by the death of icehowler in 25 hard cc and I am really happy to have topped the best shaman at wmo by about 200dps. See here:
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis


btw: Thanks to Binkenstein and all the other "mathworkers" on Elementals. You really make our choices of glyphs etc. much easier to make it to the top, which in itself is an emberassment of the pure classes



Please excuse my english, I am not an native speaker.

 

Sreypech

I've tried using CL on every cooldown today and especially on Jaraxxus hard mode I ended up using one innervates to compensate for the mana usage. For the most part I've ended up using the LvB-LB-CL method now to balance that mana cost out. I think I could have gotten away with using one or two innervates if I was better about using thunderstorm directly on cooldown as well. That's something I'll try next week.

On faction champs (being mindful of CC) using chain lightening whenever it was up had me using 3 innervates and still being out of mana at the end of the fight, it was also an 11:48 fight.

 

Cyrella

In dummy testing of CL and non-CL rotations on the IF dummy it was still looking like a wash between LB and CL, but lag was making it difficult to get CL on CD. CL is surely out during heroism, even LvB is occasionally slamming into the GCD during hero. Mana has been a non-issue. I did CL on CD for an entire 25m heroic beasts and ended the fight at 30% mana.

 

Grymoire

I am not sure was it just a bias illusion since I am fond of CL, but using CL on every CD also seems to do more dps than just using CL after LvB, altho I think Bink stated that they are roughly the same in terms of damage, so need to do more testing on that, or til Bink have more detailed figures on CL on CD vs CL after LvB.

 

Mackeyser

Btw, a revisit on using CL on FC. I did see the AoE reduction. So there's that. Buuuut.....

What I found is that creating incidental dmg put the not so smart healer AI into super overheal mode, so the FC healer would see mob x take dmg (really didn't matter how much... sometimes only a few hundred) and spend a cast on healing that mob. So between the initial crit of CL going over 11k (which frankly shocked me) as well as overloading creating all sorts of incidental dmg, the FC healers spent a lot of time spending cast times on nonsense dmg. We on purpose put AoEs all over the place and it almost shorts the healers out. I guess the rationale was that by reducing AoE dmg, folks would focus, so the healing AI would be modest. But when everyone's taking dmg, the AI doesn't really parse too well based on need, hence overhealing non-focused targets.

That seems a smart use of game mechanics (going against the flow a bit) since if the FC shaman, for example, is gonna overheal the hunter pet by 18k, he's not healing the focus target which only helps us. I specifically saw this because tab targeting is pretty much.. well, working as intended, and I ended up on pets on the way to the next mob and they were continually getting topped off. I did not see any hunter mend pet or warlock pet healing mechanics present and we did see healers targeting pets.

Anyway, yes, I did see the reduction to AoE which included CL on FC. Wondered if anyone else uses this strat?

 

Sswan

I still only have 4 T8.5 and one T9.

For single targets, I don't see any increase in DPS putting CL back in the rotation on test dummies. As a matter of fact, no CL seems to have better DPS.

Will this change as I get 4 T9?

Thank you for your support

 

Mackeyser

Rather than be bad and ask questions I can find out myself, I've been reading for several hours through the various threads and don't see an answer.

Are there any sims that work on a Mac for Ele? My XP partition is busted atm, so I can't just pop in and run it there. I'd like to sim some gear alternatives (it's not you folk's job to gear me), but I can't seem to find one that isn't source code that won't work for me. And transitioning from t8 to t9 with crap rings is proving to be a challenge. I mean I can see certain stats go up and down, but as we've seen many other times, due to scaling or lack thereof, simple linear up/down eyeballing isn't always the best method of discerning upgrades.

Any help is appreciated.

 

Stratecaster

Took me all of 5s to find out that apparently you can run RAWR (my recommendation by FAR for up-to-date simming) on a mac using a program called Mono. Good luck and happy theorycrafting

 

• Binkenstein

You fail to understand my point.

CL on CD is higher DPS while you are casting it. However, you can't use that rotation for as long as you would use CL after LvB, and assuming you adjust from these rotations to a No CL one in order to hit zero mana at the end of the fight, the increased time using CL after LvB counters the higher dps from CL on CD, resulting in roughly the same overall damage/dps for the fight.

"That young girl is one of the least benightedly unintelligent organic life forms it has been my profound lack of pleasure not to be able to avoid meeting"
Marvin, The Paranoid Android, from Life, the Universe, and Everything by Douglas Adams

<Birdemani> I feel dirty. I wanted to run a pug voa tonight and used a gear score in /1 to get an invite. But I have no idea what my score is so I just made up some number above 6000 and got 10 invites.

 

Mackeyser

Just so ya know... it's not nearly as easy as all that. What I mean is that while Mono is native, it still has to compile a Windows app. And that is never a one and done deal. I was hoping for a native Mac sim or at least something relatively close. Apparently the queue is long for this, but it just doesn't exist. No worries, once I figure it out, I'll post it somewhere and link my findings if anyone else is a Mac user and interested.

Both Mono (which now runs natively, so at least we don't still need Crossover) and getting Rawr to work with it are works in progress. Not being a coder means I'll have to work with the folks on why there are numerous exceptions. It MAY eventually work or they MAY eventually get a solid Mac port... but as of now, it is NOT a de facto guaranteed that anyone with a Mac can just run RAWR. A very few folks have gotten lucky. So it's a start.

Also, for those unfamiliar as I am with Rawr, while the home page does not specify Ele shaman, I guess they've since added a module so Ele's are included now. Have been for a bit, but the home page still doesn't indicate our inclusion.

 

britishgrl

Mansanbol, Yes it is 33% chance but only if it does indeed jump three times correct? On single targets it isnt gonna jump three times so single target the proc chance of lightning overload is only 11%.

What is in question here in my book is whether chain lightning should be added to a rotation, for single target damage, as many shamans have been doing, because per casting time it has a higher co-efficient. It's obvious that CL should be a huge dps increase for any time its gonna jump, even once but single target? Does the extra 22% chance to overload make it worth it to spend the extra .3 secs to cast a LB instead of a CL. A lot of shamans now that it benefits from shamanism are using it every cooldown. My personal opinion is that the only reason to cast CL instead of LB in a rotation is if your LB is about to be on CD and you dont have the full 1.5-1.6 secs to cast a full LB. I would think that the extra 22% chance to overload would be worth the extra .3- .4 secs casting time. Also my experience with CL is that it seems to have a lower bottom end and a lower average hit and crit than LB. Seems weird considering I know the base damage for CL is supposed to be higher.

Just thoughts.

 

Agash

The exact percentage proc for LO on CL is uncertain. Essentially there are 2 trains of though - either it procs 33%/3 = 11% of the time (which would make it proc 30% of the time on triple hits) or it procs 1-(1/3)^0.67 = 12.6% (which would make it proc 33% on a triple hit). The reason for the doubt is that the numbers are fairly close and difficult to verify other than through extremely extensive testing.

Either way, even including for LO, CL has a higher DPS than LB now and unless you have a specific haste level that means the LBs fit precisely into your LvB CD it should be used in a single target rotation.