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09/13/09, 7:22 PM
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#181
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mumbo-jumbo-theorycrafter
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The initial math suggests a 150-200 dps difference between CL & LB, in favour of CL. However, creating a complete rotation with logic to choose the best spell when cooldowns are up is nigh impossible with a spreadsheet. It looks like we'll need some sort of sim to calculate a "use cooldowns when they're up" rotation.
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09/13/09, 7:40 PM
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#182
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Von Kaiser
Troll Shaman
Gul'dan (EU)
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A mode like this is on my to do list for the Rawr model. However this will still take me some time due to other work, that has to be done first.
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09/13/09, 9:59 PM
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#183
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Glass Joe
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Anyone know the haste to get 1.33 and 1.14 second LB casts, including our 5% totem and 3% moonkin/ret?
5 LB Its 311 (Pre ToEW 511) @ 1.6 cast Cast with new totem (200 Haste)
6 LB Its 1081 (Pre ToEW 1281) @ 1.33 Cast with new totem (200 Haste)
7 LB Its 1840 (Pre ToEW 2040) @ 1.14 Cast with new totem (200 Haste)
1% Haste = 32.79 Rateing
OK New correct way!
((2/1.33)/1.05/1.03 - 1)*32.79*100 = 1281
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09/14/09, 8:21 AM
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#184
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Shaman
Sylvanas (EU)
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Originally Posted by Binkenstein
The initial math suggests a 150-200 dps difference between CL & LB, in favour of CL. However, creating a complete rotation with logic to choose the best spell when cooldowns are up is nigh impossible with a spreadsheet. It looks like we'll need some sort of sim to calculate a "use cooldowns when they're up" rotation.
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While there isn't enough maths to see the actual difference in dps yet, your initial maths already suggesting damage difference in favour to CL, so looks like CL gonna be part of the rotation again. Out of curiosity though, after that change (it is a whooping 15% boost to CL afterall), how much difference will there be now between Total of Hex and Totem of Electricfying Wind? Would the T9 totem still wins hands down after that change?
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09/14/09, 8:39 AM
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#185
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Don Flamenco
Nathaira
Draenei Shaman
No WoW Account (EU)
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Originally Posted by Grymoire
Would the T9 totem still wins hands down after that change?
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As long as you can cast about 1-2 lightning bolts before the buff falls down, EleWind will be superior. Even if we start using CL extensively again, LB will still represent at least 50% of our total dps.
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Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.
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09/14/09, 10:35 AM
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#186
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Bald Bull
Pandaren Shaman
Whisperwind
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I'm really shocked they want us even thinking this. Bringing CL back into our rotation when they worked so damned hard to remove it. If CL is commonly used then Blizz has to monitor our mana consumption and balance assuming we use it. Doing this, when CL represents a pretty small gain in DPS, makes cutting it a game breaking mana saver. I was under the assumption they wanted to make us "care" about mana consumption again...just seems they are going about it entirely backwards.
Anyhow, my basic math seems to show CL making another showing into our rotations, its doing a bit more than 75% of our average LB damage. Its not something we are going to want to cast through LvB coming off CD, but it appears to be making a comeback at least until really high haste levels (bringing CL below 1.0.) The Shamanism buff brings spell power up a bit in relation to haste, so that may curb the haste stacking, but we will still be hitting the CL threshold pretty soon, if not in max ToC gear then definitely in Icecrown. I'm doing about 950 right now with my totem procced, so just a few upgrades and I'll have to start reconsidering it myself.
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09/14/09, 10:57 AM
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#187
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Piston Honda
Tauren Shaman
Khadgar (EU)
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It strikes me that the intention isn't necessarily to bring CL back into our rotation as standard (the mana cost is a bit high for that) but to give us an extra gear we can shift up when we need to - Icehowl when stunned, Valkyrs on shields, Anub below 30% etc. Of course, we can't do that durng BL as we would hit the GCD cap, but in fights where you need to shift up multiple times or for longer than 40 secs, we now have somewhere to go.
Last edited by Agash : 09/15/09 at 4:57 AM.
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09/14/09, 11:23 AM
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#188
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Shaman
Chromaggus (EU)
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Maybe the purpose is just bringing elems back up in AoE dmg (trash packs or stacking adds on Anub Fight, Flowers @ Freya etc) ?
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09/14/09, 1:00 PM
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#189
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Agash
It strikes me that the intention isn't necessarily to bring CL back into our rotation as standard (the mana cost is a bit high for that) but to give as an extra gear we can shift up when we need to - Icehowl when stunned, Valkyrs on shields Anub below 30% etc. Of course, we can't do that durng BL as we would hit the GCD cap but in fights where you need to shift up multiple times or for longer than 40 secs, we now have somewhere to go.
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This. If CL is indeed superior, even slightly on a cast by cast basis, not to mention when u consider it casts faster, you then have a high mana cost spell that can do moderately more damage.
I cannot help but think of a parallel with arcane mages. Arcane mages do the most damage with arcane blast. However, due to the spell costing too much, they cannot sustain a full arcane blast rotation without Ooming. Therefore, the skilled mages know to use said rotation at key points in a fight or when key CD's are ready. Too, as an arcane mage gets more gear/mana, they can fit more and more arcane blasts into a fight which allows them to scale more.
This seemingly simple solution could actually be a complex way to a) make elemental more diverse and more interesting in its rotations and b) give some additional scaling to the class.
While I'm sure many would have initially bemoaned a 200 dps increase would be insufficient to keep us up with the Joneses of other hybrids at this and future gear levels, this might be a decent fix that gives us the tools to do better and disallows, from purely insufficient mana, lower-geared shaman from benefiting as much from the change. But enough theory, to the PTR testing and spreadsheets!
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09/14/09, 1:51 PM
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#190
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Cookies!
Finala
Night Elf Druid
No WoW Account
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Using simcraft which is updated for the latest changes I got the following:
DPS Ranking:
24633 100.0% Raid
8364 33.9% Shaman_T9_CLonCD
8198 33.2% Shaman_T9_CLforLVB
8105 32.9% Shaman_T9_NoCL
This is simulated using BIS T9 with this file: Shaman_T9_57_14_00_258_ToW.simcraft - simulationcraft - Project Hosting on Google Code
The options changed were to use CL on cooldown, use it only to tighten LvB times, and to never use it.
For my own gear, it was only about a 100 dps increase to use CL on cooldown, as I was going oom towards the end.
The complete log:

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft build 3.2.2 ( iterations=1000, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1, smooth_rng=0 )
DPS Ranking:
24633 100.0% Raid
8364 33.9% Shaman_T9_CLonCD
8198 33.2% Shaman_T9_CLforLVB
8105 32.9% Shaman_T9_NoCL
Player: Shaman_CLforLVB tauren shaman elemental 80
DPS: 8197.7 Error=11.4 Range=639 DPR=39.2 RPS=209.0/204.9 (mana)
Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=14165873
Core Stats: strength=393|135(10) agility=331|79(10) stamina=1800|1338(1200) intellect=1672|1405(1155) spirit=307|155(10) health=24688|20508 mana=29196|25191
Spell Stats: power=3798|3073(3073) hit=11.09%|11.09%(291) crit=37.88%|31.27%(718) penetration=0|0(0) haste=38.60%|28.15%(923) mp5=229|197
Attack Stats power=1795|354(0) hit=8.88%|8.88%(291) crit=32.54%|24.51%(718) expertise=0.00|0.00(0) penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0) haste=68.83%|36.60%(923)
Defense Stats: armor=16059|15555(15397) blockv=440|311(243) defense=0|0(0) miss=0.00%|0.00% dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0) parry=0.00%|0.00%(0) block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90%
Glyphs: flame_shock/lava/lightning_bolt
Actions:
chain_lightning Count= 17.4|15.7sec DPE= 7316| 5% DPET= 6615 DPR= 10.8 pDPS= 425 Miss=0.0% Hit=4677 Crit= 9776| 9989|51.7%
flame_shock Count= 11.0|28.2sec DPE= 16100| 7% DPET= 14522 DPR= 125.7 pDPS= 591 Miss=0.0% Hit=1928 Crit= 4020| 4140|47.3% TickCount=96 Tick=1003 CritTick=2089|2153|47.4%
lava_burst Count= 32.2| 9.4sec DPE= 16280|21% DPET= 14914 DPR= 62.0 pDPS=1750 Miss=0.0% Crit=16280|16652|100.0%
lightning_bolt Count=167.8| 1.8sec DPE= 7324|50% DPET= 5272 DPR= 30.0 pDPS=4099 Miss=0.0% Hit=4659 Crit= 9743| 9866|52.4%
lightning_overload Count= 57.3| 0.0sec DPE= 4218|10% DPET= 1 DPR= 0.0 pDPS= 806 Miss=0.0% Hit=2687 Crit= 5620| 5747|52.2%
reign_of_the_dead Count= 59.5|10.0sec DPE= 2654| 6% DPET= 1 DPR= 0.0 pDPS= 526 Miss=2.9% Hit=2187 Crit= 3380| 3578|44.5%
Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude
Constant Buffs: mark_of_the_wild/replenishment/water_shield
Dynamic Buffs:
bloodlust : start=1.0 refresh=0.0 interval= 0.0|0.0 uptime=13%
electrifying_wind : start=2.1 refresh=31.9 interval=104.7|8.8 uptime=98% trigger=70%
elemental_focus : start=56.6 refresh=77.8 interval= 5.3|2.2 uptime=84% benefit=83%
elemental_mastery : start=2.0 refresh=0.0 interval=180.6|180.6 uptime=10% benefit=10%
Procs:
246.9 | 1.83sec : judgement_of_wisdom
57.3 | 5.15sec : lightning_overload
59.5 | 10.04sec : reign_of_the_dead
Gains:
5893.6 : blessing_of_wisdom (overflow=9.9%)
29196.0 : initial_mana
21251.5 : judgement_of_wisdom (overflow=2.1%)
13052.6 : mp5_regen (overflow=4.7%)
16057.7 : replenishment (overflow=8.2%)
5178.9 : water_shield (overflow=13.6%)
Player: Shaman_T9_CLonCD tauren shaman elemental 80
DPS: 8363.9 Error=11.6 Range=532 DPR=31.7 RPS=263.8/217.1 (mana)
Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=14165873
Core Stats: strength=393|135(10) agility=331|79(10) stamina=1800|1338(1200) intellect=1672|1405(1155) spirit=307|155(10) health=24688|20508 mana=29196|25191
Spell Stats: power=3798|3073(3073) hit=11.09%|11.09%(291) crit=37.88%|31.27%(718) penetration=0|0(0) haste=38.60%|28.15%(923) mp5=229|197
Attack Stats power=1795|354(0) hit=8.88%|8.88%(291) crit=32.54%|24.51%(718) expertise=0.00|0.00(0) penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0) haste=68.83%|36.60%(923)
Defense Stats: armor=16059|15555(15397) blockv=440|311(243) defense=0|0(0) miss=0.00%|0.00% dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0) parry=0.00%|0.00%(0) block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90%
Glyphs: flame_shock/lava/lightning_bolt
Actions:
chain_lightning Count= 55.7| 5.4sec DPE= 7432|17% DPET= 6826 DPR= 11.8 pDPS=1382 Miss=0.0% Hit=4720 Crit= 9871| 9989|52.7%
flame_shock Count= 11.3|27.5sec DPE= 16257| 7% DPET= 14660 DPR= 132.8 pDPS= 613 Miss=0.0% Hit=1932 Crit= 4028| 4140|49.8% TickCount=98 Tick=1005 CritTick=2094|2153|48.5%
lava_burst Count= 32.2| 9.4sec DPE= 16301|21% DPET= 14946 DPR= 62.6 pDPS=1750 Miss=0.0% Crit=16301|16652|100.0%
lightning_bolt Count=137.5| 2.2sec DPE= 7305|40% DPET= 5246 DPR= 29.4 pDPS=3351 Miss=0.0% Hit=4650 Crit= 9721| 9866|52.4%
lightning_overload Count= 51.6| 0.0sec DPE= 4229| 9% DPET= 1 DPR= 0.0 pDPS= 728 Miss=0.0% Hit=2688 Crit= 5622| 5747|52.5%
reign_of_the_dead Count= 61.0| 9.8sec DPE= 2655| 6% DPET= 1 DPR= 0.0 pDPS= 540 Miss=2.8% Hit=2188 Crit= 3380| 3578|44.4%
Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude
Constant Buffs: mark_of_the_wild/replenishment/water_shield
Dynamic Buffs:
bloodlust : start=1.0 refresh=0.0 interval= 0.0|0.0 uptime=13%
electrifying_wind : start=1.8 refresh=36.0 interval=118.7|7.9 uptime=98% trigger=70%
elemental_focus : start=58.6 refresh=80.6 interval= 5.1|2.2 uptime=83% benefit=83%
elemental_mastery : start=2.0 refresh=0.0 interval=181.2|181.2 uptime=10% benefit=10%
Procs:
243.6 | 1.83sec : judgement_of_wisdom
51.6 | 5.69sec : lightning_overload
61.0 | 9.80sec : reign_of_the_dead
Gains:
6526.2 : blessing_of_wisdom
29196.0 : initial_mana
21408.4 : judgement_of_wisdom
13695.3 : mp5_regen
17479.2 : replenishment
5972.3 : water_shield
Player: Shaman_T9_NoCL tauren shaman elemental 80
DPS: 8105.3 Error=11.7 Range=558 DPR=44.7 RPS=181.3/180.6 (mana)
Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=14165873
Core Stats: strength=393|135(10) agility=331|79(10) stamina=1800|1338(1200) intellect=1672|1405(1155) spirit=307|155(10) health=24688|20508 mana=29196|25191
Spell Stats: power=3798|3073(3073) hit=11.09%|11.09%(291) crit=37.88%|31.27%(718) penetration=0|0(0) haste=38.60%|28.15%(923) mp5=229|197
Attack Stats power=1795|354(0) hit=8.88%|8.88%(291) crit=32.54%|24.51%(718) expertise=0.00|0.00(0) penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0) haste=68.83%|36.60%(923)
Defense Stats: armor=16059|15555(15397) blockv=440|311(243) defense=0|0(0) miss=0.00%|0.00% dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0) parry=0.00%|0.00%(0) block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90%
Glyphs: flame_shock/lava/lightning_bolt
Actions:
flame_shock Count= 11.1|27.7sec DPE= 16393| 7% DPET= 14783 DPR= 137.7 pDPS= 606 Miss=0.0% Hit=1933 Crit= 4034| 4140|49.0% TickCount=97 Tick=1006 CritTick=2096|2153|48.4%
lava_burst Count= 31.4| 9.7sec DPE= 16289|21% DPET= 14963 DPR= 62.3 pDPS=1706 Miss=0.0% Crit=16289|16652|100.0%
lightning_bolt Count=181.8| 1.6sec DPE= 7306|55% DPET= 5243 DPR= 29.6 pDPS=4430 Miss=0.0% Hit=4654 Crit= 9730| 9866|52.3%
lightning_overload Count= 60.0| 0.0sec DPE= 4235|10% DPET= 1 DPR= 0.0 pDPS= 847 Miss=0.0% Hit=2686 Crit= 5618| 5715|52.8%
reign_of_the_dead Count= 58.3|10.2sec DPE= 2651| 6% DPET= 1 DPR= 0.0 pDPS= 516 Miss=2.8% Hit=2188 Crit= 3379| 3578|44.1%
Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude
Constant Buffs: mark_of_the_wild/replenishment/water_shield
Dynamic Buffs:
bloodlust : start=1.0 refresh=0.0 interval= 0.0|0.0 uptime=13%
electrifying_wind : start=1.5 refresh=37.6 interval=122.6|7.7 uptime=99% trigger=70%
elemental_focus : start=55.4 refresh=76.4 interval= 5.4|2.3 uptime=83% benefit=83%
elemental_mastery : start=2.0 refresh=0.0 interval=180.0|180.0 uptime=10% benefit=10%
Procs:
249.6 | 1.83sec : judgement_of_wisdom
60.0 | 4.91sec : lightning_overload
58.3 | 10.24sec : reign_of_the_dead
Gains:
4703.3 : blessing_of_wisdom (overflow=28.1%)
29196.0 : initial_mana
20711.0 : judgement_of_wisdom (overflow=5.6%)
11761.2 : mp5_regen (overflow=14.2%)
13254.7 : replenishment (overflow=24.2%)
3700.4 : water_shield (overflow=38.3%)
Auras and De-Buffs:
Constant: abominations_might/battle_shout/bleeding/blood_frenzy/crypt_fever/curse_of_elements/earth_and_moon
Constant: elemental_oath/expose_armor/faerie_fire/ferocious_inspiration/flametongue_totem/heart_of_the_crusader
Constant: hunters_mark/improved_faerie_fire/improved_moonkin/improved_scorch/improved_shadow_bolt/infected_wounds
Constant: insect_swarm/judgement_of_wisdom/judgements_of_the_just/leader_of_the_pack/mana_spring_totem/mangle
Constant: master_poisoner/misery/moonkin/poisoned/rampage/sanctified_retribution/savage_combat/strength_of_earth
Constant: sunder_armor/swift_retribution/thunder_clap/totem_of_wrath/totem_of_wrath_debuff/trauma/trueshot
Constant: unleashed_rage/windfury_totem/winters_chill/wrath_of_air
Dynamic:
Waiting:
All players active 100% of the time.
Baseline Performance:
TotalEvents = 2526337
MaxEventQueue = 34
TargetHealth = 7389544
SimSeconds = 300194
CpuSeconds = 9.157
SpeedUp = 32783
RNG global Actual/Expected Roll=1.001543 Range=1.000000 Gauss=1.000000
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09/14/09, 4:22 PM
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#191
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Bald Bull
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I don't think the intention was to bring CL back as the part of a normal DPS rotation. I think the intention was to boost the underwhelming damage on CL, which has really fallen by the wayside. Low cast time and very little help from talents led to poor scaling on the spell, and while it gets used regularly in multi-target situations the spell itself is pretty weak at the moment. I think the devs are happy with how often Ele Shamans use CL (not in single-target situations, on cooldown in multi-target situations as mana allows), they just want to bring our damage up and this is a safe/easy/intuitive way to do it.
Last edited by Ghando : 09/14/09 at 5:24 PM.
Reason: holy crap verb tense
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09/14/09, 4:39 PM
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#192
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mumbo-jumbo-theorycrafter
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The other question is whether it's practical to sustain a CL on CD rotation, with the increased mana costs, and the fact that you'll be sacrificing a GCD every 45-50 seconds for Thunderstorm (and the possibility that we'll need to use the Thunderstorm glyph to remove it's knockback component)
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09/14/09, 4:45 PM
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#193
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Bald Bull
Pandaren Shaman
Whisperwind
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Originally Posted by Binkenstein
The other question is whether it's practical to sustain a CL on CD rotation, with the increased mana costs, and the fact that you'll be sacrificing a GCD every 45-50 seconds for Thunderstorm (and the possibility that we'll need to use the Thunderstorm glyph to remove it's knockback component)
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All of this is valid. I personally use the glyph on Thunderstorm by default so I can use the spell for its AE effect on trash without risking being murdered by my tanks, so that is a non-consideration for me (I keep a stack on me all the time so I can unglyph it when I feel the knockback is actually useful.)
I've been using CL pretty religiously on P1 of HM beasts already because we kill the kobolds on top of the melee to get them killed faster. Hitting CL every cooldown there was fine for me, and I wasn't getting JoW procs because the pallies don't switch to the kobolds so my mana would have been better.
A final consideration is whether it would be better to use CL aggressively and use mana pots instead of a DPS pot. My above comment on whether or not Blizz "intends" for us to use CL in our rotation I think was taken incorrectly. It doesn't MATTER whether they intend it, if we use it. I think it was pretty clear they didn't intend it before when we did and they have been systematically nerfing/buffing spells to try and break it out of our rotation.
At this point, I'll take any buff they give us and use it to the best manner I can. I personally love CL and find it to be one of our more interesting/unique spells and weave it in in every opportunity I can. Perhaps my love affair with the spell colors my perspective on it a bit.
EDIT: Also, most of us don't take all the mana talents available to us currently, depending on my whim, I'lll drop nearly all of them. Obviously, if CL is a DPS increase, it would be foolish for me to continue doing that.
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09/14/09, 4:49 PM
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#194
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Binkenstein
The other question is whether it's practical to sustain a CL on CD rotation, with the increased mana costs, and the fact that you'll be sacrificing a GCD every 45-50 seconds for Thunderstorm (and the possibility that we'll need to use the Thunderstorm glyph to remove it's knockback component)
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In that it's a minor glyph slot to remove the knockback component, that shouldn't really be a consideration.
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09/14/09, 6:19 PM
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#195
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mumbo-jumbo-theorycrafter
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Originally Posted by Infuri
In that it's a minor glyph slot to remove the knockback component, that shouldn't really be a consideration.
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I use it fairly pro-actively as an inverse-Death Grip function.
I've managed to put together a decent rotation calculation now, but it's a long-winded form. Upside of that is that I'm able to get a bit more accurate on Clearcasting uptimes re: specific spells. Still need to work in some logic for wait times, as I'm currently just going off cooldowns being available. In the meantime, I'll get some mana use figures done so we can start looking at that aspect.
[e]With my current gear & settings I'm expecting 6392 dps with 215 mps without CL, and 6718 dps/309 mps. That's a 326 dps gain for an additional 94 mps cost.
[e2]Looking at OOM times and mana use, I suspect CL won't be practical except for "high burn" non-heroism phases, as even with the most aggressive TS use I'm still seeing a 215 second OOM time. I'm also experimenting with adding an extra GCD (adjusted by rotation time over TS CD use) to account for the "wasted" GCD used for additional mana regen.
Last edited by Binkenstein : 09/14/09 at 6:51 PM.
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