Elitist Jerks [Elemental] Patch 3.2

 09/13/09, 7:22 PM #181 Binkenstein mumbo-jumbo-theorycrafter     Binkenstein Pandaren Shaman   Saurfang The initial math suggests a 150-200 dps difference between CL & LB, in favour of CL. However, creating a complete rotation with logic to choose the best spell when cooldowns are up is nigh impossible with a spreadsheet. It looks like we'll need some sort of sim to calculate a "use cooldowns when they're up" rotation. www.totemspot.com The Shaman Community Site - My blog Totemspot Guides includes Ele & Enh guides for Mists
 09/13/09, 7:40 PM #182 Lord Helmchen Von Kaiser     Planewalker Troll Shaman   Gul'dan (EU) A mode like this is on my to do list for the Rawr model. However this will still take me some time due to other work, that has to be done first.
 09/13/09, 9:59 PM #183 Darknemata Glass Joe   Darknemata Troll Shaman   Arthas Anyone know the haste to get 1.33 and 1.14 second LB casts, including our 5% totem and 3% moonkin/ret? 5 LB Its 311 (Pre ToEW 511) @ 1.6 cast Cast with new totem (200 Haste) 6 LB Its 1081 (Pre ToEW 1281) @ 1.33 Cast with new totem (200 Haste) 7 LB Its 1840 (Pre ToEW 2040) @ 1.14 Cast with new totem (200 Haste) 1% Haste = 32.79 Rateing OK New correct way! ((2/1.33)/1.05/1.03 - 1)*32.79*100 = 1281
09/14/09, 8:21 AM   #184
Grymoire
Von Kaiser

Draenei Shaman

Sylvanas (EU)
 Originally Posted by Binkenstein The initial math suggests a 150-200 dps difference between CL & LB, in favour of CL. However, creating a complete rotation with logic to choose the best spell when cooldowns are up is nigh impossible with a spreadsheet. It looks like we'll need some sort of sim to calculate a "use cooldowns when they're up" rotation.

While there isn't enough maths to see the actual difference in dps yet, your initial maths already suggesting damage difference in favour to CL, so looks like CL gonna be part of the rotation again. Out of curiosity though, after that change (it is a whooping 15% boost to CL afterall), how much difference will there be now between Total of Hex and Totem of Electricfying Wind? Would the T9 totem still wins hands down after that change?

09/14/09, 8:39 AM   #185
tufy
Don Flamenco

Nathaira
Draenei Shaman

No WoW Account (EU)
 Originally Posted by Grymoire Would the T9 totem still wins hands down after that change?
As long as you can cast about 1-2 lightning bolts before the buff falls down, EleWind will be superior. Even if we start using CL extensively again, LB will still represent at least 50% of our total dps.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 09/14/09, 10:35 AM #186 Moshne Bald Bull     Moshne Pandaren Shaman   Whisperwind I'm really shocked they want us even thinking this. Bringing CL back into our rotation when they worked so damned hard to remove it. If CL is commonly used then Blizz has to monitor our mana consumption and balance assuming we use it. Doing this, when CL represents a pretty small gain in DPS, makes cutting it a game breaking mana saver. I was under the assumption they wanted to make us "care" about mana consumption again...just seems they are going about it entirely backwards. Anyhow, my basic math seems to show CL making another showing into our rotations, its doing a bit more than 75% of our average LB damage. Its not something we are going to want to cast through LvB coming off CD, but it appears to be making a comeback at least until really high haste levels (bringing CL below 1.0.) The Shamanism buff brings spell power up a bit in relation to haste, so that may curb the haste stacking, but we will still be hitting the CL threshold pretty soon, if not in max ToC gear then definitely in Icecrown. I'm doing about 950 right now with my totem procced, so just a few upgrades and I'll have to start reconsidering it myself. - 11/13 HM -25m - W/Th/Sun 8-12 CST LF Healer www.somethingwickedguild.com
 09/14/09, 10:57 AM #187 Agash Piston Honda   Agash Tauren Shaman   Khadgar (EU) It strikes me that the intention isn't necessarily to bring CL back into our rotation as standard (the mana cost is a bit high for that) but to give us an extra gear we can shift up when we need to - Icehowl when stunned, Valkyrs on shields, Anub below 30% etc. Of course, we can't do that durng BL as we would hit the GCD cap, but in fights where you need to shift up multiple times or for longer than 40 secs, we now have somewhere to go. Last edited by Agash : 09/15/09 at 4:57 AM.
 09/14/09, 11:23 AM #188 Stel Von Kaiser   Freckles Draenei Shaman   Chromaggus (EU) Maybe the purpose is just bringing elems back up in AoE dmg (trash packs or stacking adds on Anub Fight, Flowers @ Freya etc) ?
09/14/09, 1:00 PM   #189
Stratecaster
Glass Joe

Troll Shaman

 Originally Posted by Agash It strikes me that the intention isn't necessarily to bring CL back into our rotation as standard (the mana cost is a bit high for that) but to give as an extra gear we can shift up when we need to - Icehowl when stunned, Valkyrs on shields Anub below 30% etc. Of course, we can't do that durng BL as we would hit the GCD cap but in fights where you need to shift up multiple times or for longer than 40 secs, we now have somewhere to go.
This. If CL is indeed superior, even slightly on a cast by cast basis, not to mention when u consider it casts faster, you then have a high mana cost spell that can do moderately more damage.

I cannot help but think of a parallel with arcane mages. Arcane mages do the most damage with arcane blast. However, due to the spell costing too much, they cannot sustain a full arcane blast rotation without Ooming. Therefore, the skilled mages know to use said rotation at key points in a fight or when key CD's are ready. Too, as an arcane mage gets more gear/mana, they can fit more and more arcane blasts into a fight which allows them to scale more.

This seemingly simple solution could actually be a complex way to a) make elemental more diverse and more interesting in its rotations and b) give some additional scaling to the class.

While I'm sure many would have initially bemoaned a 200 dps increase would be insufficient to keep us up with the Joneses of other hybrids at this and future gear levels, this might be a decent fix that gives us the tools to do better and disallows, from purely insufficient mana, lower-geared shaman from benefiting as much from the change. But enough theory, to the PTR testing and spreadsheets!

 09/14/09, 1:51 PM #190 Zimeron Cookies!     Finala Night Elf Druid   No WoW Account Using simcraft which is updated for the latest changes I got the following: ```DPS Ranking: 24633 100.0% Raid 8364 33.9% Shaman_T9_CLonCD 8198 33.2% Shaman_T9_CLforLVB 8105 32.9% Shaman_T9_NoCL``` This is simulated using BIS T9 with this file: Shaman_T9_57_14_00_258_ToW.simcraft - simulationcraft - Project Hosting on Google Code The options changed were to use CL on cooldown, use it only to tighten LvB times, and to never use it. For my own gear, it was only about a 100 dps increase to use CL on cooldown, as I was going oom towards the end. The complete log: ```SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft build 3.2.2 ( iterations=1000, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1, smooth_rng=0 ) DPS Ranking: 24633 100.0% Raid 8364 33.9% Shaman_T9_CLonCD 8198 33.2% Shaman_T9_CLforLVB 8105 32.9% Shaman_T9_NoCL Player: Shaman_CLforLVB tauren shaman elemental 80 DPS: 8197.7 Error=11.4 Range=639 DPR=39.2 RPS=209.0/204.9 (mana) Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=14165873 Core Stats: strength=393|135(10) agility=331|79(10) stamina=1800|1338(1200) intellect=1672|1405(1155) spirit=307|155(10) health=24688|20508 mana=29196|25191 Spell Stats: power=3798|3073(3073) hit=11.09%|11.09%(291) crit=37.88%|31.27%(718) penetration=0|0(0) haste=38.60%|28.15%(923) mp5=229|197 Attack Stats power=1795|354(0) hit=8.88%|8.88%(291) crit=32.54%|24.51%(718) expertise=0.00|0.00(0) penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0) haste=68.83%|36.60%(923) Defense Stats: armor=16059|15555(15397) blockv=440|311(243) defense=0|0(0) miss=0.00%|0.00% dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0) parry=0.00%|0.00%(0) block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90% Glyphs: flame_shock/lava/lightning_bolt Actions: chain_lightning Count= 17.4|15.7sec DPE= 7316| 5% DPET= 6615 DPR= 10.8 pDPS= 425 Miss=0.0% Hit=4677 Crit= 9776| 9989|51.7% flame_shock Count= 11.0|28.2sec DPE= 16100| 7% DPET= 14522 DPR= 125.7 pDPS= 591 Miss=0.0% Hit=1928 Crit= 4020| 4140|47.3% TickCount=96 Tick=1003 CritTick=2089|2153|47.4% lava_burst Count= 32.2| 9.4sec DPE= 16280|21% DPET= 14914 DPR= 62.0 pDPS=1750 Miss=0.0% Crit=16280|16652|100.0% lightning_bolt Count=167.8| 1.8sec DPE= 7324|50% DPET= 5272 DPR= 30.0 pDPS=4099 Miss=0.0% Hit=4659 Crit= 9743| 9866|52.4% lightning_overload Count= 57.3| 0.0sec DPE= 4218|10% DPET= 1 DPR= 0.0 pDPS= 806 Miss=0.0% Hit=2687 Crit= 5620| 5747|52.2% reign_of_the_dead Count= 59.5|10.0sec DPE= 2654| 6% DPET= 1 DPR= 0.0 pDPS= 526 Miss=2.9% Hit=2187 Crit= 3380| 3578|44.5% Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude Constant Buffs: mark_of_the_wild/replenishment/water_shield Dynamic Buffs: bloodlust : start=1.0 refresh=0.0 interval= 0.0|0.0 uptime=13% electrifying_wind : start=2.1 refresh=31.9 interval=104.7|8.8 uptime=98% trigger=70% elemental_focus : start=56.6 refresh=77.8 interval= 5.3|2.2 uptime=84% benefit=83% elemental_mastery : start=2.0 refresh=0.0 interval=180.6|180.6 uptime=10% benefit=10% Procs: 246.9 | 1.83sec : judgement_of_wisdom 57.3 | 5.15sec : lightning_overload 59.5 | 10.04sec : reign_of_the_dead Gains: 5893.6 : blessing_of_wisdom (overflow=9.9%) 29196.0 : initial_mana 21251.5 : judgement_of_wisdom (overflow=2.1%) 13052.6 : mp5_regen (overflow=4.7%) 16057.7 : replenishment (overflow=8.2%) 5178.9 : water_shield (overflow=13.6%) Player: Shaman_T9_CLonCD tauren shaman elemental 80 DPS: 8363.9 Error=11.6 Range=532 DPR=31.7 RPS=263.8/217.1 (mana) Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=14165873 Core Stats: strength=393|135(10) agility=331|79(10) stamina=1800|1338(1200) intellect=1672|1405(1155) spirit=307|155(10) health=24688|20508 mana=29196|25191 Spell Stats: power=3798|3073(3073) hit=11.09%|11.09%(291) crit=37.88%|31.27%(718) penetration=0|0(0) haste=38.60%|28.15%(923) mp5=229|197 Attack Stats power=1795|354(0) hit=8.88%|8.88%(291) crit=32.54%|24.51%(718) expertise=0.00|0.00(0) penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0) haste=68.83%|36.60%(923) Defense Stats: armor=16059|15555(15397) blockv=440|311(243) defense=0|0(0) miss=0.00%|0.00% dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0) parry=0.00%|0.00%(0) block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90% Glyphs: flame_shock/lava/lightning_bolt Actions: chain_lightning Count= 55.7| 5.4sec DPE= 7432|17% DPET= 6826 DPR= 11.8 pDPS=1382 Miss=0.0% Hit=4720 Crit= 9871| 9989|52.7% flame_shock Count= 11.3|27.5sec DPE= 16257| 7% DPET= 14660 DPR= 132.8 pDPS= 613 Miss=0.0% Hit=1932 Crit= 4028| 4140|49.8% TickCount=98 Tick=1005 CritTick=2094|2153|48.5% lava_burst Count= 32.2| 9.4sec DPE= 16301|21% DPET= 14946 DPR= 62.6 pDPS=1750 Miss=0.0% Crit=16301|16652|100.0% lightning_bolt Count=137.5| 2.2sec DPE= 7305|40% DPET= 5246 DPR= 29.4 pDPS=3351 Miss=0.0% Hit=4650 Crit= 9721| 9866|52.4% lightning_overload Count= 51.6| 0.0sec DPE= 4229| 9% DPET= 1 DPR= 0.0 pDPS= 728 Miss=0.0% Hit=2688 Crit= 5622| 5747|52.5% reign_of_the_dead Count= 61.0| 9.8sec DPE= 2655| 6% DPET= 1 DPR= 0.0 pDPS= 540 Miss=2.8% Hit=2188 Crit= 3380| 3578|44.4% Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude Constant Buffs: mark_of_the_wild/replenishment/water_shield Dynamic Buffs: bloodlust : start=1.0 refresh=0.0 interval= 0.0|0.0 uptime=13% electrifying_wind : start=1.8 refresh=36.0 interval=118.7|7.9 uptime=98% trigger=70% elemental_focus : start=58.6 refresh=80.6 interval= 5.1|2.2 uptime=83% benefit=83% elemental_mastery : start=2.0 refresh=0.0 interval=181.2|181.2 uptime=10% benefit=10% Procs: 243.6 | 1.83sec : judgement_of_wisdom 51.6 | 5.69sec : lightning_overload 61.0 | 9.80sec : reign_of_the_dead Gains: 6526.2 : blessing_of_wisdom 29196.0 : initial_mana 21408.4 : judgement_of_wisdom 13695.3 : mp5_regen 17479.2 : replenishment 5972.3 : water_shield Player: Shaman_T9_NoCL tauren shaman elemental 80 DPS: 8105.3 Error=11.7 Range=558 DPR=44.7 RPS=181.3/180.6 (mana) Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=14165873 Core Stats: strength=393|135(10) agility=331|79(10) stamina=1800|1338(1200) intellect=1672|1405(1155) spirit=307|155(10) health=24688|20508 mana=29196|25191 Spell Stats: power=3798|3073(3073) hit=11.09%|11.09%(291) crit=37.88%|31.27%(718) penetration=0|0(0) haste=38.60%|28.15%(923) mp5=229|197 Attack Stats power=1795|354(0) hit=8.88%|8.88%(291) crit=32.54%|24.51%(718) expertise=0.00|0.00(0) penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0) haste=68.83%|36.60%(923) Defense Stats: armor=16059|15555(15397) blockv=440|311(243) defense=0|0(0) miss=0.00%|0.00% dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0) parry=0.00%|0.00%(0) block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90% Glyphs: flame_shock/lava/lightning_bolt Actions: flame_shock Count= 11.1|27.7sec DPE= 16393| 7% DPET= 14783 DPR= 137.7 pDPS= 606 Miss=0.0% Hit=1933 Crit= 4034| 4140|49.0% TickCount=97 Tick=1006 CritTick=2096|2153|48.4% lava_burst Count= 31.4| 9.7sec DPE= 16289|21% DPET= 14963 DPR= 62.3 pDPS=1706 Miss=0.0% Crit=16289|16652|100.0% lightning_bolt Count=181.8| 1.6sec DPE= 7306|55% DPET= 5243 DPR= 29.6 pDPS=4430 Miss=0.0% Hit=4654 Crit= 9730| 9866|52.3% lightning_overload Count= 60.0| 0.0sec DPE= 4235|10% DPET= 1 DPR= 0.0 pDPS= 847 Miss=0.0% Hit=2686 Crit= 5618| 5715|52.8% reign_of_the_dead Count= 58.3|10.2sec DPE= 2651| 6% DPET= 1 DPR= 0.0 pDPS= 516 Miss=2.8% Hit=2188 Crit= 3379| 3578|44.1% Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude Constant Buffs: mark_of_the_wild/replenishment/water_shield Dynamic Buffs: bloodlust : start=1.0 refresh=0.0 interval= 0.0|0.0 uptime=13% electrifying_wind : start=1.5 refresh=37.6 interval=122.6|7.7 uptime=99% trigger=70% elemental_focus : start=55.4 refresh=76.4 interval= 5.4|2.3 uptime=83% benefit=83% elemental_mastery : start=2.0 refresh=0.0 interval=180.0|180.0 uptime=10% benefit=10% Procs: 249.6 | 1.83sec : judgement_of_wisdom 60.0 | 4.91sec : lightning_overload 58.3 | 10.24sec : reign_of_the_dead Gains: 4703.3 : blessing_of_wisdom (overflow=28.1%) 29196.0 : initial_mana 20711.0 : judgement_of_wisdom (overflow=5.6%) 11761.2 : mp5_regen (overflow=14.2%) 13254.7 : replenishment (overflow=24.2%) 3700.4 : water_shield (overflow=38.3%) Auras and De-Buffs: Constant: abominations_might/battle_shout/bleeding/blood_frenzy/crypt_fever/curse_of_elements/earth_and_moon Constant: elemental_oath/expose_armor/faerie_fire/ferocious_inspiration/flametongue_totem/heart_of_the_crusader Constant: hunters_mark/improved_faerie_fire/improved_moonkin/improved_scorch/improved_shadow_bolt/infected_wounds Constant: insect_swarm/judgement_of_wisdom/judgements_of_the_just/leader_of_the_pack/mana_spring_totem/mangle Constant: master_poisoner/misery/moonkin/poisoned/rampage/sanctified_retribution/savage_combat/strength_of_earth Constant: sunder_armor/swift_retribution/thunder_clap/totem_of_wrath/totem_of_wrath_debuff/trauma/trueshot Constant: unleashed_rage/windfury_totem/winters_chill/wrath_of_air Dynamic: Waiting: All players active 100% of the time. Baseline Performance: TotalEvents = 2526337 MaxEventQueue = 34 TargetHealth = 7389544 SimSeconds = 300194 CpuSeconds = 9.157 SpeedUp = 32783 RNG global Actual/Expected Roll=1.001543 Range=1.000000 Gauss=1.000000```
 09/14/09, 4:22 PM #191 Ghando Bald Bull     Ghando Tauren Shaman   Mal'Ganis I don't think the intention was to bring CL back as the part of a normal DPS rotation. I think the intention was to boost the underwhelming damage on CL, which has really fallen by the wayside. Low cast time and very little help from talents led to poor scaling on the spell, and while it gets used regularly in multi-target situations the spell itself is pretty weak at the moment. I think the devs are happy with how often Ele Shamans use CL (not in single-target situations, on cooldown in multi-target situations as mana allows), they just want to bring our damage up and this is a safe/easy/intuitive way to do it. Last edited by Ghando : 09/14/09 at 5:24 PM. Reason: holy crap verb tense I write a humor blog: http://idropthings.blogspot.com
 09/14/09, 4:39 PM #192 Binkenstein mumbo-jumbo-theorycrafter     Binkenstein Pandaren Shaman   Saurfang The other question is whether it's practical to sustain a CL on CD rotation, with the increased mana costs, and the fact that you'll be sacrificing a GCD every 45-50 seconds for Thunderstorm (and the possibility that we'll need to use the Thunderstorm glyph to remove it's knockback component) www.totemspot.com The Shaman Community Site - My blog Totemspot Guides includes Ele & Enh guides for Mists
09/14/09, 4:45 PM   #193
Moshne
Bald Bull

Pandaren Shaman

Whisperwind
 Originally Posted by Binkenstein The other question is whether it's practical to sustain a CL on CD rotation, with the increased mana costs, and the fact that you'll be sacrificing a GCD every 45-50 seconds for Thunderstorm (and the possibility that we'll need to use the Thunderstorm glyph to remove it's knockback component)
All of this is valid. I personally use the glyph on Thunderstorm by default so I can use the spell for its AE effect on trash without risking being murdered by my tanks, so that is a non-consideration for me (I keep a stack on me all the time so I can unglyph it when I feel the knockback is actually useful.)

I've been using CL pretty religiously on P1 of HM beasts already because we kill the kobolds on top of the melee to get them killed faster. Hitting CL every cooldown there was fine for me, and I wasn't getting JoW procs because the pallies don't switch to the kobolds so my mana would have been better.

A final consideration is whether it would be better to use CL aggressively and use mana pots instead of a DPS pot. My above comment on whether or not Blizz "intends" for us to use CL in our rotation I think was taken incorrectly. It doesn't MATTER whether they intend it, if we use it. I think it was pretty clear they didn't intend it before when we did and they have been systematically nerfing/buffing spells to try and break it out of our rotation.

At this point, I'll take any buff they give us and use it to the best manner I can. I personally love CL and find it to be one of our more interesting/unique spells and weave it in in every opportunity I can. Perhaps my love affair with the spell colors my perspective on it a bit.

EDIT: Also, most of us don't take all the mana talents available to us currently, depending on my whim, I'lll drop nearly all of them. Obviously, if CL is a DPS increase, it would be foolish for me to continue doing that.

<Something Wicked> - 11/13 HM -25m - W/Th/Sun 8-12 CST LF Healer
www.somethingwickedguild.com

09/14/09, 4:49 PM   #194
Infuri
Von Kaiser

Orc Shaman

Dalaran
 Originally Posted by Binkenstein The other question is whether it's practical to sustain a CL on CD rotation, with the increased mana costs, and the fact that you'll be sacrificing a GCD every 45-50 seconds for Thunderstorm (and the possibility that we'll need to use the Thunderstorm glyph to remove it's knockback component)
In that it's a minor glyph slot to remove the knockback component, that shouldn't really be a consideration.

09/14/09, 6:19 PM   #195
Binkenstein
mumbo-jumbo-theorycrafter

Pandaren Shaman

Saurfang
 Originally Posted by Infuri In that it's a minor glyph slot to remove the knockback component, that shouldn't really be a consideration.
I use it fairly pro-actively as an inverse-Death Grip function.

I've managed to put together a decent rotation calculation now, but it's a long-winded form. Upside of that is that I'm able to get a bit more accurate on Clearcasting uptimes re: specific spells. Still need to work in some logic for wait times, as I'm currently just going off cooldowns being available. In the meantime, I'll get some mana use figures done so we can start looking at that aspect.

[e]With my current gear & settings I'm expecting 6392 dps with 215 mps without CL, and 6718 dps/309 mps. That's a 326 dps gain for an additional 94 mps cost.
[e2]Looking at OOM times and mana use, I suspect CL won't be practical except for "high burn" non-heroism phases, as even with the most aggressive TS use I'm still seeing a 215 second OOM time. I'm also experimenting with adding an extra GCD (adjusted by rotation time over TS CD use) to account for the "wasted" GCD used for additional mana regen.

Last edited by Binkenstein : 09/14/09 at 6:51 PM.

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 Elitist Jerks [Elemental] Patch 3.2