[Elemental] Patch 3.2 - Page 13

Binkenstein · 09/13/09, 7:22 PM

The initial math suggests a 150-200 dps difference between CL & LB, in favour of CL. However, creating a complete rotation with logic to choose the best spell when cooldowns are up is nigh impossible with a spreadsheet. It looks like we'll need some sort of sim to calculate a "use cooldowns when they're up" rotation.

Lord Helmchen · 09/13/09, 7:40 PM

A mode like this is on my to do list for the Rawr model. However this will still take me some time due to other work, that has to be done first.

Darknemata · 09/13/09, 9:59 PM

Anyone know the haste to get 1.33 and 1.14 second LB casts, including our 5% totem and 3% moonkin/ret?

5 LB Its 311 (Pre ToEW 511) @ 1.6 cast Cast with new totem (200 Haste)
6 LB Its 1081 (Pre ToEW 1281) @ 1.33 Cast with new totem (200 Haste)
7 LB Its 1840 (Pre ToEW 2040) @ 1.14 Cast with new totem (200 Haste)

1% Haste = 32.79 Rateing

OK New correct way!

((2/1.33)/1.05/1.03 - 1)*32.79*100 = 1281

Grymoire · 09/14/09, 8:21 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

The initial math suggests a 150-200 dps difference between CL & LB, in favour of CL. However, creating a complete rotation with logic to choose the best spell when cooldowns are up is nigh impossible with a spreadsheet. It looks like we'll need some sort of sim to calculate a "use cooldowns when they're up" rotation.

While there isn't enough maths to see the actual difference in dps yet, your initial maths already suggesting damage difference in favour to CL, so looks like CL gonna be part of the rotation again. Out of curiosity though, after that change (it is a whooping 15% boost to CL afterall), how much difference will there be now between Total of Hex and Totem of Electricfying Wind? Would the T9 totem still wins hands down after that change?

tufy · 09/14/09, 8:39 AM

Originally Posted by Grymoire

Would the T9 totem still wins hands down after that change?

As long as you can cast about 1-2 lightning bolts before the buff falls down, EleWind will be superior. Even if we start using CL extensively again, LB will still represent at least 50% of our total dps.

Moshne · 09/14/09, 10:35 AM

I'm really shocked they want us even thinking this. Bringing CL back into our rotation when they worked so damned hard to remove it. If CL is commonly used then Blizz has to monitor our mana consumption and balance assuming we use it. Doing this, when CL represents a pretty small gain in DPS, makes cutting it a game breaking mana saver. I was under the assumption they wanted to make us "care" about mana consumption again...just seems they are going about it entirely backwards.

Anyhow, my basic math seems to show CL making another showing into our rotations, its doing a bit more than 75% of our average LB damage. Its not something we are going to want to cast through LvB coming off CD, but it appears to be making a comeback at least until really high haste levels (bringing CL below 1.0.) The Shamanism buff brings spell power up a bit in relation to haste, so that may curb the haste stacking, but we will still be hitting the CL threshold pretty soon, if not in max ToC gear then definitely in Icecrown. I'm doing about 950 right now with my totem procced, so just a few upgrades and I'll have to start reconsidering it myself.

Agash · 09/14/09, 10:57 AM

It strikes me that the intention isn't necessarily to bring CL back into our rotation as standard (the mana cost is a bit high for that) but to give us an extra gear we can shift up when we need to - Icehowl when stunned, Valkyrs on shields, Anub below 30% etc. Of course, we can't do that durng BL as we would hit the GCD cap, but in fights where you need to shift up multiple times or for longer than 40 secs, we now have somewhere to go.

Stel · 09/14/09, 11:23 AM

Maybe the purpose is just bringing elems back up in AoE dmg (trash packs or stacking adds on Anub Fight, Flowers @ Freya etc) ?

Stratecaster · 09/14/09, 1:00 PM

Originally Posted by Agash

It strikes me that the intention isn't necessarily to bring CL back into our rotation as standard (the mana cost is a bit high for that) but to give as an extra gear we can shift up when we need to - Icehowl when stunned, Valkyrs on shields Anub below 30% etc. Of course, we can't do that durng BL as we would hit the GCD cap but in fights where you need to shift up multiple times or for longer than 40 secs, we now have somewhere to go.

This. If CL is indeed superior, even slightly on a cast by cast basis, not to mention when u consider it casts faster, you then have a high mana cost spell that can do moderately more damage.

I cannot help but think of a parallel with arcane mages. Arcane mages do the most damage with arcane blast. However, due to the spell costing too much, they cannot sustain a full arcane blast rotation without Ooming. Therefore, the skilled mages know to use said rotation at key points in a fight or when key CD's are ready. Too, as an arcane mage gets more gear/mana, they can fit more and more arcane blasts into a fight which allows them to scale more.

This seemingly simple solution could actually be a complex way to a) make elemental more diverse and more interesting in its rotations and b) give some additional scaling to the class.

While I'm sure many would have initially bemoaned a 200 dps increase would be insufficient to keep us up with the Joneses of other hybrids at this and future gear levels, this might be a decent fix that gives us the tools to do better and disallows, from purely insufficient mana, lower-geared shaman from benefiting as much from the change. But enough theory, to the PTR testing and spreadsheets!

Zimeron · 09/14/09, 1:51 PM

Using simcraft which is updated for the latest changes I got the following:

DPS Ranking:
  24633 100.0%  Raid
   8364  33.9%  Shaman_T9_CLonCD
   8198  33.2%  Shaman_T9_CLforLVB
   8105  32.9%  Shaman_T9_NoCL

This is simulated using BIS T9 with this file: Shaman_T9_57_14_00_258_ToW.simcraft - simulationcraft - Project Hosting on Google Code

The options changed were to use CL on cooldown, use it only to tighten LvB times, and to never use it.

For my own gear, it was only about a 100 dps increase to use CL on cooldown, as I was going oom towards the end.

The complete log:

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft build 3.2.2 ( iterations=1000, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1, smooth_rng=0 )

DPS Ranking:
  24633 100.0%  Raid
   8364  33.9%  Shaman_T9_CLonCD
   8198  33.2%  Shaman_T9_CLforLVB
   8105  32.9%  Shaman_T9_NoCL

Player: Shaman_CLforLVB tauren shaman elemental 80
  DPS: 8197.7  Error=11.4  Range=639  DPR=39.2  RPS=209.0/204.9  (mana)
  Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=14165873
  Core Stats:  strength=393|135(10)  agility=331|79(10)  stamina=1800|1338(1200)  intellect=1672|1405(1155)  spirit=307|155(10)  health=24688|20508  mana=29196|25191
  Spell Stats:  power=3798|3073(3073)  hit=11.09%|11.09%(291)  crit=37.88%|31.27%(718)  penetration=0|0(0)  haste=38.60%|28.15%(923)  mp5=229|197
  Attack Stats  power=1795|354(0)  hit=8.88%|8.88%(291)  crit=32.54%|24.51%(718)  expertise=0.00|0.00(0)  penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0)  haste=68.83%|36.60%(923)
  Defense Stats:  armor=16059|15555(15397)  blockv=440|311(243)  defense=0|0(0)  miss=0.00%|0.00%  dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0)  parry=0.00%|0.00%(0)  block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90%
  Glyphs: flame_shock/lava/lightning_bolt
  Actions:
    chain_lightning     Count= 17.4|15.7sec  DPE=  7316| 5%  DPET=  6615  DPR=  10.8  pDPS= 425  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4677  Crit= 9776| 9989|51.7%
    flame_shock         Count= 11.0|28.2sec  DPE= 16100| 7%  DPET= 14522  DPR= 125.7  pDPS= 591  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1928  Crit= 4020| 4140|47.3%  TickCount=96  Tick=1003  CritTick=2089|2153|47.4%
    lava_burst          Count= 32.2| 9.4sec  DPE= 16280|21%  DPET= 14914  DPR=  62.0  pDPS=1750  Miss=0.0%  Crit=16280|16652|100.0%
    lightning_bolt      Count=167.8| 1.8sec  DPE=  7324|50%  DPET=  5272  DPR=  30.0  pDPS=4099  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4659  Crit= 9743| 9866|52.4%
    lightning_overload  Count= 57.3| 0.0sec  DPE=  4218|10%  DPET=     1  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 806  Miss=0.0%  Hit=2687  Crit= 5620| 5747|52.2%
    reign_of_the_dead   Count= 59.5|10.0sec  DPE=  2654| 6%  DPET=     1  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 526  Miss=2.9%  Hit=2187  Crit= 3380| 3578|44.5%
  Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude
  Constant Buffs: mark_of_the_wild/replenishment/water_shield
  Dynamic Buffs:
    bloodlust         : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime=13%
    electrifying_wind : start=2.1   refresh=31.9   interval=104.7|8.8    uptime=98%  trigger=70%
    elemental_focus   : start=56.6  refresh=77.8   interval=  5.3|2.2    uptime=84%  benefit=83%
    elemental_mastery : start=2.0   refresh=0.0    interval=180.6|180.6  uptime=10%  benefit=10%
  Procs:
    246.9 |   1.83sec : judgement_of_wisdom
     57.3 |   5.15sec : lightning_overload
     59.5 |  10.04sec : reign_of_the_dead
  Gains:
     5893.6 : blessing_of_wisdom   (overflow=9.9%)
    29196.0 : initial_mana       
    21251.5 : judgement_of_wisdom  (overflow=2.1%)
    13052.6 : mp5_regen            (overflow=4.7%)
    16057.7 : replenishment        (overflow=8.2%)
     5178.9 : water_shield         (overflow=13.6%)

Player: Shaman_T9_CLonCD tauren shaman elemental 80
  DPS: 8363.9  Error=11.6  Range=532  DPR=31.7  RPS=263.8/217.1  (mana)
  Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=14165873
  Core Stats:  strength=393|135(10)  agility=331|79(10)  stamina=1800|1338(1200)  intellect=1672|1405(1155)  spirit=307|155(10)  health=24688|20508  mana=29196|25191
  Spell Stats:  power=3798|3073(3073)  hit=11.09%|11.09%(291)  crit=37.88%|31.27%(718)  penetration=0|0(0)  haste=38.60%|28.15%(923)  mp5=229|197
  Attack Stats  power=1795|354(0)  hit=8.88%|8.88%(291)  crit=32.54%|24.51%(718)  expertise=0.00|0.00(0)  penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0)  haste=68.83%|36.60%(923)
  Defense Stats:  armor=16059|15555(15397)  blockv=440|311(243)  defense=0|0(0)  miss=0.00%|0.00%  dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0)  parry=0.00%|0.00%(0)  block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90%
  Glyphs: flame_shock/lava/lightning_bolt
  Actions:
    chain_lightning     Count= 55.7| 5.4sec  DPE=  7432|17%  DPET=  6826  DPR=  11.8  pDPS=1382  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4720  Crit= 9871| 9989|52.7%
    flame_shock         Count= 11.3|27.5sec  DPE= 16257| 7%  DPET= 14660  DPR= 132.8  pDPS= 613  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1932  Crit= 4028| 4140|49.8%  TickCount=98  Tick=1005  CritTick=2094|2153|48.5%
    lava_burst          Count= 32.2| 9.4sec  DPE= 16301|21%  DPET= 14946  DPR=  62.6  pDPS=1750  Miss=0.0%  Crit=16301|16652|100.0%
    lightning_bolt      Count=137.5| 2.2sec  DPE=  7305|40%  DPET=  5246  DPR=  29.4  pDPS=3351  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4650  Crit= 9721| 9866|52.4%
    lightning_overload  Count= 51.6| 0.0sec  DPE=  4229| 9%  DPET=     1  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 728  Miss=0.0%  Hit=2688  Crit= 5622| 5747|52.5%
    reign_of_the_dead   Count= 61.0| 9.8sec  DPE=  2655| 6%  DPET=     1  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 540  Miss=2.8%  Hit=2188  Crit= 3380| 3578|44.4%
  Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude
  Constant Buffs: mark_of_the_wild/replenishment/water_shield
  Dynamic Buffs:
    bloodlust         : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime=13%
    electrifying_wind : start=1.8   refresh=36.0   interval=118.7|7.9    uptime=98%  trigger=70%
    elemental_focus   : start=58.6  refresh=80.6   interval=  5.1|2.2    uptime=83%  benefit=83%
    elemental_mastery : start=2.0   refresh=0.0    interval=181.2|181.2  uptime=10%  benefit=10%
  Procs:
    243.6 |   1.83sec : judgement_of_wisdom
     51.6 |   5.69sec : lightning_overload
     61.0 |   9.80sec : reign_of_the_dead
  Gains:
     6526.2 : blessing_of_wisdom 
    29196.0 : initial_mana       
    21408.4 : judgement_of_wisdom
    13695.3 : mp5_regen          
    17479.2 : replenishment      
     5972.3 : water_shield       

Player: Shaman_T9_NoCL tauren shaman elemental 80
  DPS: 8105.3  Error=11.7  Range=558  DPR=44.7  RPS=181.3/180.6  (mana)
  Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=14165873
  Core Stats:  strength=393|135(10)  agility=331|79(10)  stamina=1800|1338(1200)  intellect=1672|1405(1155)  spirit=307|155(10)  health=24688|20508  mana=29196|25191
  Spell Stats:  power=3798|3073(3073)  hit=11.09%|11.09%(291)  crit=37.88%|31.27%(718)  penetration=0|0(0)  haste=38.60%|28.15%(923)  mp5=229|197
  Attack Stats  power=1795|354(0)  hit=8.88%|8.88%(291)  crit=32.54%|24.51%(718)  expertise=0.00|0.00(0)  penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0)  haste=68.83%|36.60%(923)
  Defense Stats:  armor=16059|15555(15397)  blockv=440|311(243)  defense=0|0(0)  miss=0.00%|0.00%  dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0)  parry=0.00%|0.00%(0)  block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90%
  Glyphs: flame_shock/lava/lightning_bolt
  Actions:
    flame_shock         Count= 11.1|27.7sec  DPE= 16393| 7%  DPET= 14783  DPR= 137.7  pDPS= 606  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1933  Crit= 4034| 4140|49.0%  TickCount=97  Tick=1006  CritTick=2096|2153|48.4%
    lava_burst          Count= 31.4| 9.7sec  DPE= 16289|21%  DPET= 14963  DPR=  62.3  pDPS=1706  Miss=0.0%  Crit=16289|16652|100.0%
    lightning_bolt      Count=181.8| 1.6sec  DPE=  7306|55%  DPET=  5243  DPR=  29.6  pDPS=4430  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4654  Crit= 9730| 9866|52.3%
    lightning_overload  Count= 60.0| 0.0sec  DPE=  4235|10%  DPET=     1  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 847  Miss=0.0%  Hit=2686  Crit= 5618| 5715|52.8%
    reign_of_the_dead   Count= 58.3|10.2sec  DPE=  2651| 6%  DPET=     1  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 516  Miss=2.8%  Hit=2188  Crit= 3379| 3578|44.1%
  Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude
  Constant Buffs: mark_of_the_wild/replenishment/water_shield
  Dynamic Buffs:
    bloodlust         : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime=13%
    electrifying_wind : start=1.5   refresh=37.6   interval=122.6|7.7    uptime=99%  trigger=70%
    elemental_focus   : start=55.4  refresh=76.4   interval=  5.4|2.3    uptime=83%  benefit=83%
    elemental_mastery : start=2.0   refresh=0.0    interval=180.0|180.0  uptime=10%  benefit=10%
  Procs:
    249.6 |   1.83sec : judgement_of_wisdom
     60.0 |   4.91sec : lightning_overload
     58.3 |  10.24sec : reign_of_the_dead
  Gains:
     4703.3 : blessing_of_wisdom   (overflow=28.1%)
    29196.0 : initial_mana       
    20711.0 : judgement_of_wisdom  (overflow=5.6%)
    11761.2 : mp5_regen            (overflow=14.2%)
    13254.7 : replenishment        (overflow=24.2%)
     3700.4 : water_shield         (overflow=38.3%)

Auras and De-Buffs:
  Constant: abominations_might/battle_shout/bleeding/blood_frenzy/crypt_fever/curse_of_elements/earth_and_moon
  Constant: elemental_oath/expose_armor/faerie_fire/ferocious_inspiration/flametongue_totem/heart_of_the_crusader
  Constant: hunters_mark/improved_faerie_fire/improved_moonkin/improved_scorch/improved_shadow_bolt/infected_wounds
  Constant: insect_swarm/judgement_of_wisdom/judgements_of_the_just/leader_of_the_pack/mana_spring_totem/mangle
  Constant: master_poisoner/misery/moonkin/poisoned/rampage/sanctified_retribution/savage_combat/strength_of_earth
  Constant: sunder_armor/swift_retribution/thunder_clap/totem_of_wrath/totem_of_wrath_debuff/trauma/trueshot
  Constant: unleashed_rage/windfury_totem/winters_chill/wrath_of_air
  Dynamic:

Waiting:
    All players active 100% of the time.

Baseline Performance:
  TotalEvents   = 2526337
  MaxEventQueue = 34
  TargetHealth  = 7389544
  SimSeconds    = 300194
  CpuSeconds    = 9.157
  SpeedUp       = 32783

RNG global Actual/Expected Roll=1.001543 Range=1.000000 Gauss=1.000000

Ghando · 09/14/09, 4:22 PM

I don't think the intention was to bring CL back as the part of a normal DPS rotation. I think the intention was to boost the underwhelming damage on CL, which has really fallen by the wayside. Low cast time and very little help from talents led to poor scaling on the spell, and while it gets used regularly in multi-target situations the spell itself is pretty weak at the moment. I think the devs are happy with how often Ele Shamans use CL (not in single-target situations, on cooldown in multi-target situations as mana allows), they just want to bring our damage up and this is a safe/easy/intuitive way to do it.

Binkenstein · 09/14/09, 4:39 PM

The other question is whether it's practical to sustain a CL on CD rotation, with the increased mana costs, and the fact that you'll be sacrificing a GCD every 45-50 seconds for Thunderstorm (and the possibility that we'll need to use the Thunderstorm glyph to remove it's knockback component)

Moshne · 09/14/09, 4:45 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

The other question is whether it's practical to sustain a CL on CD rotation, with the increased mana costs, and the fact that you'll be sacrificing a GCD every 45-50 seconds for Thunderstorm (and the possibility that we'll need to use the Thunderstorm glyph to remove it's knockback component)

All of this is valid. I personally use the glyph on Thunderstorm by default so I can use the spell for its AE effect on trash without risking being murdered by my tanks, so that is a non-consideration for me (I keep a stack on me all the time so I can unglyph it when I feel the knockback is actually useful.)

I've been using CL pretty religiously on P1 of HM beasts already because we kill the kobolds on top of the melee to get them killed faster. Hitting CL every cooldown there was fine for me, and I wasn't getting JoW procs because the pallies don't switch to the kobolds so my mana would have been better.

A final consideration is whether it would be better to use CL aggressively and use mana pots instead of a DPS pot. My above comment on whether or not Blizz "intends" for us to use CL in our rotation I think was taken incorrectly. It doesn't MATTER whether they intend it, if we use it. I think it was pretty clear they didn't intend it before when we did and they have been systematically nerfing/buffing spells to try and break it out of our rotation.

At this point, I'll take any buff they give us and use it to the best manner I can. I personally love CL and find it to be one of our more interesting/unique spells and weave it in in every opportunity I can. Perhaps my love affair with the spell colors my perspective on it a bit.

EDIT: Also, most of us don't take all the mana talents available to us currently, depending on my whim, I'lll drop nearly all of them. Obviously, if CL is a DPS increase, it would be foolish for me to continue doing that.

Infuri · 09/14/09, 4:49 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

The other question is whether it's practical to sustain a CL on CD rotation, with the increased mana costs, and the fact that you'll be sacrificing a GCD every 45-50 seconds for Thunderstorm (and the possibility that we'll need to use the Thunderstorm glyph to remove it's knockback component)

In that it's a minor glyph slot to remove the knockback component, that shouldn't really be a consideration.

Binkenstein · 09/14/09, 6:19 PM

Originally Posted by Infuri

In that it's a minor glyph slot to remove the knockback component, that shouldn't really be a consideration.

I use it fairly pro-actively as an inverse-Death Grip function.

I've managed to put together a decent rotation calculation now, but it's a long-winded form. Upside of that is that I'm able to get a bit more accurate on Clearcasting uptimes re: specific spells. Still need to work in some logic for wait times, as I'm currently just going off cooldowns being available. In the meantime, I'll get some mana use figures done so we can start looking at that aspect.

[e]With my current gear & settings I'm expecting 6392 dps with 215 mps without CL, and 6718 dps/309 mps. That's a 326 dps gain for an additional 94 mps cost.
[e2]Looking at OOM times and mana use, I suspect CL won't be practical except for "high burn" non-heroism phases, as even with the most aggressive TS use I'm still seeing a 215 second OOM time. I'm also experimenting with adding an extra GCD (adjusted by rotation time over TS CD use) to account for the "wasted" GCD used for additional mana regen.