Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Shamans

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 07/17/09, 6:21 PM   #61
Nomahuata
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Cenarion Circle
I've read on WoWWiki and tested on Live that the 2.5s "cooldown" does not trigger after each and every single charge gained but rather it applies after the trinket fires a bolt when 3 charges is reached. The article explains it far better than I can but essentially the LC nerf wasn't as harsh as it's tooltip makes it out to be. Assuming Reign of the Unliving/Reign of the Dead has the same mechanic (and not re-implemented to match the tooltip wording), the proc portion of this trinket could be decent. Of course all judgments are reserved until some PTR testing is done. I'd do it myself but I'm blocked because of a patching error at the moment.

Offline
Old 07/19/09, 7:05 AM   #62
Flixe
Glass Joe
 
Flixe's Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Thunderfall totem and the Lava Glyph does so much for ones DPS on hardmode fights like Hodir and General Vezax. I can only dream of the crits one would get with an additional 20% increase in damage done.

Offline
Old 07/19/09, 2:35 PM   #63
Zimeron
Cookies!
 
Zimeron's Avatar
 
Finala
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Flixe View Post
Thunderfall totem and the Lava Glyph does so much for ones DPS on hardmode fights like Hodir and General Vezax. I can only dream of the crits one would get with an additional 20% increase in damage done.
Because of the massive haste gain you receive you're casting a greater percentage of LBs increasing the [Totem of Hex]'s value as well.

United States Offline
Old 07/19/09, 10:00 PM   #64
Flixe
Glass Joe
 
Flixe's Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Still, I'd like to see you do a 50k+ Lightning Bolt. That doesn't exactly happen, so what's your point?

Offline
Old 07/19/09, 11:58 PM   #65
Binkenstein
mumbo-jumbo-theorycrafter
 
Binkenstein's Avatar
 
Pandaren Shaman
 
Saurfang
Lets put it this way.

Because LB is cast more frequently, Thunderfall needs to be X times better than Hex for it to be practical to use. X is ~9:2 or 4.5 because a typical rotation will use 9 LB for every 2 LvB. Putting it into some quantifiable figures, Thunderfall gives around 630 damage per cast vs the 295 for Hex. Multiplying these by the previously mentioned ratio, we see that Thunderfall gives 1260 vs 2655 from Hex.

www.totemspot.com The Shaman Community Site - My blog

Totemspot Guides includes Ele & Enh guides for Mists

New Zealand Offline
Old 07/20/09, 5:47 AM   #66
Flixe
Glass Joe
 
Flixe's Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Ravencrest (EU)
I would imagine that said numbers are calculated solely on normal, sustained combat?
On hardmode fights like Hodir and General Vezax, you tend to move ALOT, and thus rendering the CD of LvB pretty much insignificant. And, the base dmg of LvB is significantly higher than LB's.
All I'm saying is, that when you run around as much as you do on those two fights, LvB is the superior choise spell to buff, seeing as it's more or less ready for use every time you have a few moments standing still.

And no, I can't back up anything I'm saying with solid math (since I suck at it), but I'd go as far as calling my statement common sense.

Offline
Old 07/20/09, 6:23 AM   #67
Äternitas
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Frostmourne (EU)
The biggest point is, that you can't spam LvB, it's only ~26% of my dmg, LB is about 50% in the most fights.

With Thunderfall you've only some nice critspikes

Offline
Old 07/20/09, 6:40 AM   #68
Agash
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Khadgar (EU)
Originally Posted by Flixe View Post
I would imagine that said numbers are calculated solely on normal, sustained combat?
You can easily see how the ratio would vary depending upon the mobility of the fight. For Thunderfall to be better, you would need to get the ratio to 1:1, or in other words, reduce the number of LBs in the rotation by 2655/1260. The stated ratio was 4.5:1 so the ratio of LB:LvB required to make Thunderfall more effective would be 2.13:1. To get a ratio this low, you would have to be moving for over 50% of the fight (more for fights with haste buffs like Hodir or Vezax) and to be honest, if you are losing that much time to movment, you have bigger problems than totem choice. When I am doing my calcs, I use a movement time of 10% for mobile fights and 25% for extremely mobile fights. The numbers are arbitrary but seem to work out about right.

Offline
Old 07/20/09, 7:30 AM   #69
Flixe
Glass Joe
 
Flixe's Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Äternitas View Post
The biggest point is, that you can't spam LvB, it's only ~26% of my dmg, LB is about 50% in the most fights.

With Thunderfall you've only some nice critspikes
That's my point exactly. Crit spikes. On Hodir, the crit is what makes the man, not the hit.

Originally Posted by Agash View Post
You can easily see how the ratio would vary depending upon the mobility of the fight. For Thunderfall to be better, you would need to get the ratio to 1:1, or in other words, reduce the number of LBs in the rotation by 2655/1260. The stated ratio was 4.5:1 so the ratio of LB:LvB required to make Thunderfall more effective would be 2.13:1. To get a ratio this low, you would have to be moving for over 50% of the fight (more for fights with haste buffs like Hodir or Vezax) and to be honest, if you are losing that much time to movment, you have bigger problems than totem choice. When I am doing my calcs, I use a movement time of 10% for mobile fights and 25% for extremely mobile fights. The numbers are arbitrary but seem to work out about right.
Thanks for the answer - sure makes more sense than what previous people posted.
I'd really just like to know how much DMG/DPS you do during mobile fights like these - perhaps you could PM me a WWS or something, so that I would have something to compare to.
I realize that the math speaks clearly to you guys, but you have to take that "random" effect in to account when you talk about MMO's. There's always a facit, but you should never base your playstyle on what a bunch of strangers (who's really good at math) tell you. You have to figure that out for yourself.

Offline
Old 07/20/09, 9:11 AM   #70
Lord Helmchen
Von Kaiser
 
Lord Helmchen's Avatar
 
Troll Shaman
 
Gul'dan (EU)
Some numbers for you.
In our recent Hodir hardmode tries the number of hits on the boss are 275 Lava Burst hits vs. 1064 Lightning Bolt hits.
This is about 3.9:1 (LB:LvB).
And we moved way too much. In a kill you would see an increase on Lightning Bolt casts.

Offline
Old 07/20/09, 10:36 AM   #71
 masanbol
Space Goats Coast to Coast
 
masanbol's Avatar
 
Origins
Draenei Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Flixe View Post
That's my point exactly. Crit spikes. On Hodir, the crit is what makes the man, not the hit.

Thanks for the answer - sure makes more sense than what previous people posted.
I'd really just like to know how much DMG/DPS you do during mobile fights like these - perhaps you could PM me a WWS or something, so that I would have something to compare to.
I realize that the math speaks clearly to you guys, but you have to take that "random" effect in to account when you talk about MMO's. There's always a facit, but you should never base your playstyle on what a bunch of strangers (who's really good at math) tell you. You have to figure that out for yourself.

There's nothing random about it (really, there isn't). Those big crits on Hodir may seem awesome and better, but it's just instant gratification vs. overall damage. With a (at minimum) 4:1 ratio of LB to LvB casts and a (low-end) 40% crit rate, Hex and Glyph of ToW have been shown to be far and away better than a buffed LvB over the course of everything in Ulduar, even gimmick fights with inflated crit damage like Hodir.

If you really want to change the community's mind about this you've got to give us something better than "my numbers look bigger." Give us consistent parses over several weeks compared to each other that will show us clearly that your way is better. Otherwise you're just telling us it's better because you feel it's better, in which case you're posting this in the wrong forums.


United States Offline
Old 07/20/09, 11:10 AM   #72
Juice
Soda Popinski
 
Juice's Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
I would imagine that said numbers are calculated solely on normal, sustained combat?
On hardmode fights like Hodir and General Vezax, you tend to move ALOT, and thus rendering the CD of LvB pretty much insignificant. And, the base dmg of LvB is significantly higher than LB's.
All I'm saying is, that when you run around as much as you do on those two fights, LvB is the superior choise spell to buff, seeing as it's more or less ready for use every time you have a few moments standing still.

And no, I can't back up anything I'm saying with solid math (since I suck at it), but I'd go as far as calling my statement common sense.
For someone allergic to the math behind this stuff, you sure are making a lot of ascertations which can only be substantiated with numbers. You don't know what is insignificant until you show it quantifiably. And "common sense" means something different to you than it does to the rest of us. We've all participated in these fights too, and I can tell you that the damage I do on Hodir is scattered until I plant my feet in a moonbeam with a stormcloud buff, pop timers and bloodlust and go to town. And when that happens, LvB's 8 second cooldown means 8 lightning bolts to 1 LvB. There is no common sense in my mind that supports your assumptions, and since you can't back it up with math you're just blathering. So either bring something new to the conversation or stop talking about it (this is a direct statement that you should not proceed to repeat yourself in posts, we've heard what you have to say - bring something new).

Offline
Old 07/20/09, 1:37 PM   #73
Falcon213
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by Flixe View Post
Thunderfall totem and the Lava Glyph does so much for ones DPS on hardmode fights like Hodir and General Vezax. I can only dream of the crits one would get with an additional 20% increase in damage done.
Both of these fights LB outperforms LvB on a scale larger than usual. In fact, it would seem that letting FS fall off when not moving (happens very often on Vezax, not so often on Hodir) and instead spamming LBs is more DPS.

It might be cool to see those big LvB hits, but it's still less overall damage.

Offline
Old 07/22/09, 1:03 AM   #74
Flixe
Glass Joe
 
Flixe's Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Ravencrest (EU)
I'm just gonna stop talking, for now.
I realize that you're right, and well (duh), it's not that I dont understand what you're saying.

On another note, could anyone link me a URL to some Hodir Hardmode kill? I'd like to see how you're all performing.

Offline
Old 07/22/09, 11:20 AM   #75
Marvil
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis (EU)
Originally Posted by Falcon213 View Post
Both of these fights LB outperforms LvB on a scale larger than usual. In fact, it would seem that letting FS fall off when not moving (happens very often on Vezax, not so often on Hodir) and instead spamming LBs is more dps.

It might be cool to see those big LvB hits, but it's still less overall damage.
What is this assertion based on? Yes, there were some posts about LB spam doing more dps than the normal rotation. But none of them were proven by some numbers. When I tried spamming LB on Hodir und Vezax, I ended up doing less DPS than I used to.

I have to admit that I am not such a heavy theorycrafter that I can easily calculate the numbers from scratch. However, SEIC thankfully has a comparison of the normal rotation's dps and LB spam. The only advantage of LB that I can think of are its longer cast time (and therefore better scaling with huge numbers of haste) and 4-piece T8. And even when enabling 4-piece T8 and setting haste to a number where all spells are capped, the normal rotation's dps is greater than LB spam dps (by about 5.7%). If I am not mistaken, all other Hodir and Vezax bonuses are at least equally beneficial to LvB as they are to LB.

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Shamans

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Possible Bug with Elemental Ezareth Shamans 45 01/22/09 7:19 AM
Patch 2.4.3 - Patch Notes Cadfael Public Discussion 435 07/26/08 8:19 AM
Patch 2.4.2 - Patch Notes Ellyh Public Discussion 287 05/29/08 12:18 AM