[Enhancement] BiS gear and set-up discussion - Page 3

Vespasian · 07/17/09, 1:45 PM

Updated

After some confusion on my part, we clarfied simulation behaviour re: swing timer resets and casts. The result is that the sim is accurate in its recreation of the ingame environment, so the MW3_CL, MW4_LB could be re-included in results.

This put Aoelian's proposed set-up at roughly 7387 DPS. Duscha then provided a build that provided a stable 7390 DPS when I applied the rotation changes.

Duscha also raised a point about the stability of our results when using only 1000 hour sims. I think he is correct, and so have set down 5000 hours as the required sim time. This will limit the output range from 1-5 dps down to 1-2 dps.

Coming back to the issue of Cat's on boots, I am still not willing to apply it since a) its value is not equal in all encounters and b) our simulation tool cannot take these variances into account and c) it is possible for a raider to have 2 pairs of the same boots and apply different enchants to them based on encounter. At least this way, people will have a clear indication of theoretical maxims, while also understanding that Cat's will often provide superior DPS based on the amount of movement in the encounter.

As for spec, the inclusion of mana simulation as a compulsory element means that mana talents must be able to support the gear and rotation you have designed, otherwise the report would demonstrate a DPS decrease.

Runslikegirl · 07/17/09, 2:52 PM

I have read through the Glyphs Numeric Comparison post and I dont see where the Windfury glyph has been proven to be surperior since the nerf from 5% to 2%. I dont have enhsim in front of me due to being at the office but does anyone have the comparison numbers with this gear set handy?

The last time I did a target dummy of like 4k swings I know the lightning shield glyph seemed to be like 30dps higher over the 3 or 4 rounds I did.

Rouncer · 07/17/09, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Runslikegirl

I have read through the Glyphs Numeric Comparison post and I dont see where the Windfury glyph has been proven to be surperior since the nerf from 5% to 2%. I dont have enhsim in front of me due to being at the office but does anyone have the comparison numbers with this gear set handy?

The last time I did a target dummy of like 4k swings I know the lightning shield glyph seemed to be like 30dps higher over the 3 or 4 rounds I did.

Target Dummy =/ Sim unless you managed to get an entire raid's worth of buffs and debuffs applied to the boss dummy.

My sim runs show WF > FT > LB for that third glyph spot.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Boot Enchants - I suggest removing them entirely for testing purposes.

In 3.2 there will be a third option that will muck up the BiS even further since Nitro boots will be getting 24 crit rating. Beyond that if someone is using two sets of BiS boots to be able to switch enchants based on the encounter then they will need to be hit capped in their cat speed enchanted version meaning Icewalker will take them over the spell hit cap. Since your current BiS uses Icewalker to just hit that spell hit cap it loses that ability to switch enchants, meaning it is no longer a real BiS set.

Yo! · 07/17/09, 6:40 PM

1. Major notice - it should be named as "[Enhancement] Enhsim BiS gear and set-up". There are other tools available such as Simcraft and Rawr and it is not proven that Enhsim is better reflecting in-game behavior.

2. Minor notice - why profession choice is limited to static 64 ap bonus? Jc+bs combo would add more flexibility in playing around hit/exp caps.

Rouncer · 07/17/09, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by Yo!

2. Minor notice - why profession choice is limited to static 64 ap bonus? Jc+bs combo would add more flexibility in playing around hit/exp caps.

Probably for the same reason race is limited, it's supposed to be about the gear.

Vespasian · 07/17/09, 11:45 PM

Again on Cat's on boots, I am still not convinced since there are at least two encounters currently in the game where this enchant provides no benefit whatsoever (XT normal mode and Patchwerk). Given that encounters such as these (stationary, tank and spank encounters) are often used as the 'benchmark' DPS encounters, they offer the greatest opportunity to view our maximum potential DPS in-game. I think there is some value in our simulation results, that demonstrate our theoretical potential, aligning with these in-game encounters that show our actual performance under conditions as close to the simulation environment as possible.

I make a clear note on the boots enchant directing people to the TTT section on minor speed to boots, This will allow people to make an informed choice about their boots enchant. If people do chose a run speed enchant for the currently listed BiS set-up, they will simply have to gear/enchant to accomodate this.

On professions, the JC, BS and Skinning provide non-uniform benfits that are not aligned with the standard +64 AP provided by most other professions. Since, as Rouncer points out, this is about gear and not professions, I actively sought to exclude professions such as these as they would skew the results, and make them impractical given that few people would spend 3-5K gold levelling a profession for a 10-15 DPS in simulator results. Any DPS increase that people of those professions are able to obtain is free DPS over and above the minimum laid down here.

As for the integrity of the Enhsim versus other sims, I will only say that Enhsim is as accurate a sim tool as the community is currently able to maintain. It provides a largely accurate testing environment and given the support provided by many people, bugs are often identified and corrected (such as currently occuring with the matter of swing timers and non-instant casts). Simcraft, according to one of the authors, is providing results with around 1% standard deviation from Enhsim, so I am sure that this is also a valuable tool. Rawr is not a useful tool for us as its since you cannot dictate an ability priority list.

Vespasian · 07/18/09, 2:44 AM

Updated

Managed to squeeze out a little more dps when using Gloves of the Steady Hand.

Donodan · 07/18/09, 8:37 AM

Hey, my Chars name is Donodan, currently playing on Eu nathreuim as the raidlead form"set sail for fail" ~ world rank 190, therefore I am not new to the Ej forum.

Beacuse i am from Germany, my english isn´t the best , so I hope that you will forgive me for my wired structure and choice of words.

I was able to sim a log in which i reached ~7427-7430 dps

Here´s the current setup form chardev (using 2x dark Matter because Comet´s isn´t avaiable at chardev-_>simply adding 18 ap at EnhSim)
chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner

Because i Don´t know how to link such a code I´ll post the the complete data

(don´t know why i it still says 1.7, updated it today)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

### Saved by version 1.7.0 of EnhSimGUI

simulation_time                 5000
simulation_time_combatlog       30
combat_length                   5
report_count                    80
threads                         2
min_lag                         0
max_lag                         0
simulate_mana                   1

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           200
ep_crit_rating                  30
ep_hit_rating                   30
ep_expertise                    4
ep_haste_rating                 30
ep_armor_penetration_rating     30
ep_spellpower                   150
ep_dps                          7.5
ep_mana                         250
ep_spirit                       150
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0.00
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        1
bloodlust_casters               1
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    1
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15.0
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    0
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       750
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000

rotation_priority_count         9
rotation_priority1              SR
rotation_priority2              SW
rotation_priority3              MW5_LB
rotation_priority4              SS
rotation_priority5              ES
rotation_priority6              MT
rotation_priority7              LS
rotation_priority8              LL
rotation_priority9              MW4_LB

miss                            8.0
dodge                           6.5
glancing                        24.0
armor                           10645
spell_miss                      17.0
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

armor_debuff_major              20.0/20.0
armor_debuff_minor              5.0/5.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff   4.0/4.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          688/688
attack_power_buff_multiplier    99.7/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        5.0/5.0
spell_damage_debuff             10.0/10.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   52/52
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               1
blessing_of_wisdom              1
judgement_of_wisdom             1

flask_elixir                    flask_of_relentless_assault
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          potion_of_speed
food                            fish_feast

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            orc
mh_speed                        2.7
oh_speed                        2.7
mh_dps                          188.1
oh_dps                          178.9
mh_crit                         33.48
oh_crit                         33.48
mh_hit                          11.19
oh_hit                          11.19
mh_expertise_rating             140
oh_expertise_rating             140
ap                              4864
melee_haste                     12
armor_penetration               2.68
str                             141
agi                             965
int                             501
spi                             160
spellpower                      1459
spell_crit                      24.19
spell_hit                       13.99
spell_haste                     9.33
max_mana                        13000
mp5                             0

mh_imbue                        windfury
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      berserking
oh_enchant                      berserking

mh_weapon                       -
oh_weapon                       -

trinket1                        45609
trinket2                        45522

totem                           42608

set_bonus1                      worldbreaker_battlegear_4
set_bonus2                      -
set_bonus3                      -

metagem                         chaotic_skyflare_diamond

gloves_enchant                  -
cloak_enchant                   -

glyph_major1                    windfury_weapon
glyph_major2                    stormstrike
glyph_major3                    feral_spirit

glyph_minor1                    -
glyph_minor2                    -
glyph_minor3                    -

ancestral_knowledge             2/5
improved_shields                3/3
mental_dexterity                3/3
shamanistic_focus               1/1
flurry                          5/5
elemental_weapons               3/3
unleashed_rage                  3/3
weapon_mastery                  3/3
dual_wield_specialization       3/3
mental_quickness                3/3
improved_stormstrike            0/2
static_shock                    3/3
maelstrom_weapon                5/5

convection                      0/5
concussion                      5/5
call_of_flame                   3/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
reverberation                   2/5
elemental_focus                 1/1
elemental_fury                  5/5
call_of_thunder                 0/1
unrelenting_storm               0/3
elemental_precision             0/3
lightning_mastery               0/5
elemental_oath                  0/2
lightning_overload              0/5
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
shamanism                       0/5

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EnhSim version 1.8.0

................................................................................


OH:
miss                1204486        9.82%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            2946665        24.01%
hit                 2230054        18.17%
crit                5889570        48.00%

OH Flametongue:
miss                3243           0.02%
hit                 9626684        61.73%
crit                5965178        38.25%

OH Stormstrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 1036325        49.04%
crit                1076834        50.96%

Earth Shock:
miss                532            0.02%
hit                 1663380        61.75%
crit                1029617        38.23%

Lava Lash:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 1182665        48.96%
crit                1232992        51.04%

Lightning Bolt:
miss                708            0.02%
hit                 2144829        61.75%
crit                1327593        38.22%

Lightning Shield:
miss                450            0.02%
hit                 2290071        99.98%
crit                0              0.00%

Spirit Wolves:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               585940         6.50%
glancing            2159774        23.97%
hit                 5227270        58.02%
crit                1036544        11.50%

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 59.39

flurry uptime                  95.38%
unleashed rage uptime          0.00%
elemental devastation uptime   79.46%
elemental oath uptime          0.00%

mh enchant uptime              42.55%
oh enchant uptime              38.18%
trinket1 uptime                20.57%
trinket2 uptime                18.08%
totem uptime                   80.52%
set bonus uptime               0.00%
metagem uptime                 0.00%
gloves enchant uptime          0.00%
cloak enchant uptime           0.00%

                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.00      0.00%
mp5                 36.12     19.30%
replenishment       38.83     20.74%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
judgement of wisdom 8.93      4.77%
shamanistic rage    103.28    55.18%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc                0.00      0.00%
stormstrike         0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               2156.40   29.03%    81.81
windfury            892.80    12.02%    7.02
flametongue         586.00    7.89%     51.98
stormstrike         484.35    6.52%     7.04      38.81     17.68%
lava lash           399.73    5.38%     8.05      16.39     7.46%
magma totem         554.58    7.46%     2.87      53.35     24.30%
earth shock         634.19    8.54%     8.98      37.96     17.29%
lightning bolt      1171.10   15.76%    11.58     69.75     31.77%
lightning shield    242.25    3.26%     0.85      0.00      0.00%
spirit wolves       307.95    4.15%     0.40      3.31      1.51%

DPS                 7429.36
MPS                 219.56
MP2min              26346.91
MRPS                193.39
Out of mana time    0.12%

elapsed simulation time: 5000.00h
elapsed real time: 17.85s
simulation speed: 1008572x

Rouncer · 07/18/09, 9:35 AM

Originally Posted by Donodan

Hey, my Chars name is Donodan, currently playing on Eu nathreuim as the raidlead form"set sail for fail" ~ world rank 190, therefore I am not new to the Ej forum.

race                            orc

First off use [ code ] [ /code ] when posting a config file. Next, read the directions and understand them before posting. All sims are to be done with Tauren as the selected race to prevent race from being involved in the performance.

Originally Posted by Vespasian

Again on Cat's on boots, I am still not convinced since there are at least two encounters currently in the game where this enchant provides no benefit whatsoever (XT normal mode and Patchwerk). Given that encounters such as these (stationary, tank and spank encounters) are often used as the 'benchmark' DPS encounters, they offer the greatest opportunity to view our maximum potential DPS in-game. I think there is some value in our simulation results, that demonstrate our theoretical potential, aligning with these in-game encounters that show our actual performance under conditions as close to the simulation environment as possible.

I make a clear note on the boots enchant directing people to the TTT section on minor speed to boots, This will allow people to make an informed choice about their boots enchant. If people do chose a run speed enchant for the currently listed BiS set-up, they will simply have to gear/enchant to accomodate this.

On professions, the JC, BS and Skinning provide non-uniform benfits that are not aligned with the standard +64 AP provided by most other professions. Since, as Rouncer points out, this is about gear and not professions, I actively sought to exclude professions such as these as they would skew the results, and make them impractical given that few people would spend 3-5K gold levelling a profession for a 10-15 DPS in simulator results. Any DPS increase that people of those professions are able to obtain is free DPS over and above the minimum laid down here.

Cat's speed. There may be two encounters where it will not show any benefit however there are many more encounters where it will be extremely beneficial. People do keep two sets of boots ( I know I do) for the two enchants but that doesn't preclude making sure that you are at least at the hit cap when using the set of boots with runspeed. Since your set is literally at the spell hit cap when using Icewalker, you will be under the cap when using a set with runspeed, thus invalidating your results entirely.

Professions. Don't forget about tailoring and engineering, they also have non-standard benefits that may actually end up being superior to the other options.

Donodan · 07/18/09, 9:44 AM

Well I already said i didn t know how to handel the config file, so thanks for your advice - I have changed it now.

The race doesn´t seem to chance anything (still getting 7430 dps as Tauren) as long you are not wearing axes, (strange because auf the orc racial), so i forgot to swap it back to tauren,my fault here.

Rouncer · 07/18/09, 9:49 AM

Originally Posted by Donodan

Well I already said i didn t know how to handel the config file, so thanks for your advice.

The race doesn´t seem to chance anything (still getting 7430 dps as Tauren) as long you are not wearing axes, (strange because auf the orc racial), so i forgot to chance it back to tauren,my fault here.

Blood Fury - Spell - World of Warcraft

You also have combat length set to 5 minutes instead of 10 and you have latency set to 0.

Yo! · 07/18/09, 9:49 AM

Originally Posted by Vespasian

As for the integrity of the Enhsim versus other sims, I will only say that Enhsim is as accurate a sim tool as the community is currently able to maintain. It provides a largely accurate testing environment and given the support provided by many people, bugs are often identified and corrected (such as currently occuring with the matter of swing timers and non-instant casts). Simcraft, according to one of the authors, is providing results with around 1% standard deviation from Enhsim, so I am sure that this is also a valuable tool. Rawr is not a useful tool for us as its since you cannot dictate an ability priority list.

Can you please prove your words that "It provides a largely accurate testing environment"?
I would be very interested in methodology of evaluating simulators accuracy in order to make such claims.
Do you have huge data samples of fully buffed raids beating dummies for 10 minutes?
In fact community is not able now to maintain bug-fixing frequency that Tukez was maintaining and no one knows how many bugs are left.
My point is - this maxdps number and BiS list are completely dependant on current version of one program (if next update will lower the maxdps number - you are going to lower it too, are not you?) and it has to be stated very clearly, not hidden into disclaimer part alongside with minor conventions.

gilf · 07/18/09, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Yo!

Can you please prove your words that "It provides a largely accurate testing environment"?
I would be very interested in methodology of evaluating simulators accuracy in order to make such claims.
Do you have huge data samples of fully buffed raids beating dummies for 10 minutes?
In fact community is not able now to maintain bug-fixing frequency that Tukez was maintaining and no one knows how many bugs are left.
My point is - this maxdps number and BiS list are completely dependant on current version of one program (if next update will lower the maxdps number - you are going to lower it too, are not you?) and it has to be stated very clearly, not hidden into disclaimer part alongside with minor conventions.

The complaint about not being able to maintain the source is not true. The community has been fixing bugs in the enhsim code since the source has been publicly available all along. Just recently, the armor pen calculations were changed to reflect the Ghostcrawler post on the same subject.

As far as comparing other simulations, it seems to be a worthwhile endeavor but ultimately outside of the scope of this thread. The point of the thread is, as Rouncer noted, about the gear, not the specific number which will never be attained anyway, even on a fully debuffed target dummy. An easier way to check this would be to try and get Rawr or simcraft to somehow disagree with the gear list in the thread. Even if the numbers are slightly different, but the maxdps gearset is the same, it's a non-issue. That's a lot easier than getting a raid together to fight a target dummy.

Yo! · 07/18/09, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by gilf

The complaint about not being able to maintain the source is not true. The community has been fixing bugs in the enhsim code since the source has been publicly available all along. Just recently, the armor pen calculations were changed to reflect the Ghostcrawler post on the same subject.
As far as comparing other simulations, it seems to be a worthwhile endeavor but ultimately outside of the scope of this thread. The point of the thread is, as Rouncer noted, about the gear, not the specific number which will never be attained anyway, even on a fully debuffed target dummy. An easier way to check this would be to try and get Rawr or simcraft to somehow disagree with the gear list in the thread. Even if the numbers are slightly different, but the maxdps gearset is the same, it's a non-issue. That's a lot easier than getting a raid together to fight a target dummy.

1) the purpose of this thread is BiS gear found in Enhsim , that what is used. It is pointless to protect it's "universal" status.

2) there is Rawr BiS list already, anyone can find it using optimizer, and it is different.
[Enhancement] Discussion on Ulduar Loot List & BiS

3) Simcrafft team uses BiS gear for reports such as this
SampleOutput - simulationcraft - Google Code
but I do not know if they find it with simcraft or export from other sources

4) and as you asked (Off-topic):
Downloads - enhsim - Google Code there were 64 Tukez' updates over 9 month (7 per month), comparing to EnhSim - Release: v1.8.1 5 updates + 2 (v 1.7.0.1 and 1.7.0.2) over 3 month (2.3 per month), so my claim about update frequency being much lower now is correct.
Sim's current accuracy is not meassured with the number of past updates, one may claim that current version is absolutly correct ("not guilty until proven" style). Number of updates can only hint to how much work is needed to make it better and better.

Vespasian · 07/18/09, 11:47 AM

Donadon, thank you for your efforts but the combat log you have submitted was invalid and when corrected, netted about 7311 DPS.

Yo! wrote:
My point is - this maxdps number and BiS list are completely dependant on current version of one program (if next update will lower the maxdps number - you are going to lower it too, are not you?) and it has to be stated very clearly, not hidden into disclaimer part alongside with minor conventions.

With regards to the integrity of Enhsim, I go to great lengths to clarify its role in this project. To quote the introductory post:

How is ‘highest potential dps’ defined?
For the purposes of this exercise, ‘highest potential dps’ is defined as the maximum possible DPS achievable within the current version Enhsim DPS simulator created Turkez (EnhSim - Home with the latest executable authored by Sylvand). [...]

It is important to understand the limitations of simulation. Simulation offers a glimpse of character performance under perfect conditions- set latency, no human reaction delay, no system lag, a perfect rotation on a stationary target for thousands of hours. Your actual results will vary greatly from what you observe in the sim, but the sim will give you a clear indication of maximum DPS potential.

I explain that 'highest potential DPS' is defined as that achieved within Enhsim, and I then go on to explain the limitations of simulation (your actual results will vary greatly). I do not think an entire section devoted to this matter constitutes an effort to conceal the nature of our methodology. The information is neither hidden nor along side 'minor conventions'.

Coming back to Cat's, I will take some time to consider some alternatives to the way we are currently approaching things.