[Enhancement] BiS gear and set-up discussion - Page 6

Sylvand · 08/15/09, 3:26 AM

Agility doesn't affect spell crit, I think that's its main problem for Enhancement shamans.

JitteryJohnny · 08/15/09, 3:43 AM

But neither does AP. The only thing I can think of in regards to AP positively affecting our spells is Mental Quickness, and in that case its only 2% less damage and I am still getting my flurry procs.

Falcon213 · 08/15/09, 6:19 AM

Spell power (mostly received from AP through Mental Quickness) is what makes ~40% of our damage scale (LB, ES, Magma, and FT) which are also affected by spell crit.

If you doubt us, run the sim and find your EP values for agi. It should be somewhere bewteen 1.5-1.7 per 1 AP. And since 2AP = 1Agi in blizzard itemization points, I think you can see how gemming for pure AP is better.

Edit:
Also, I got to look at my WWS from the other day, and I had exactly 80% uptime on ToEW for XT Hard getting no sparks/bombs. Its value obviously goes down for fights with downtime/movement or fights where CL shines (e.g. Kologarn). I think it would be interesting to find the lower bound for uptime to where it would be better to use Hex, although I think this might be a moot point.

Spectras · 08/15/09, 10:11 AM

It comes down to EP values. Most people most of the time will have a crit value of lower than 2. Crit, from what I've seen in a lot of EP charts, tends to hover around 1.9, and sometimes reaching 2.0 or 2.05. If you take a 20 ap 10 crit gem that ends up being 39-40 EP points (20x1, 10x1.95). Now agility has an EP value thats all together different, and you cant start directly converting them. Using my numbers for example, I currently have an EP value for agility of 1.8. So a 10 agi 10 crit gem would be ~38 EP. (10x1.8 10x1.95).

Thats my attempt at explaining it, if I am wrong it doesn't really matter, because all that matters in this game are results. I do not have the time to do it this weekend, but if you want, sim my stats. Then change all my 40 AP to 20 Agi, and all my 20 ap 10 crit into 10 agi 10 crit, and sim it again. I guarantee it will go down, and that is a good enough reason for me.

Also, simming for straight AP is significantly more consistent. Like I said before, the EP values for other stats tend to fluctuate, and except for haste very few of them get well above pure AP to be worth it.

Yoquh · 08/15/09, 7:56 PM

When i put in the stats i get from exporting my char with the same gear as the OP to enhsim, i don't get the same stats for my char.

From the first post:

 ### Saved by version 1.7.0 of EnhSimGUI

race                            tauren
mh_speed                        2.6
oh_speed                        2.6
mh_dps                          216.5
oh_dps                          216.5
mh_crit                         43.51
oh_crit                         43.51
mh_hit                          13.75
oh_hit                          13.75
mh_expertise_rating             148
oh_expertise_rating             148
ap                              5747
melee_haste                     10.90
armor_penetration               19.24
str                             145
agi                             1321
int                             689
spi                             165
spellpower                      1724
spell_crit                      31.07
spell_hit                       17.19
spell_haste                     8.39
max_mana                        14451
mp5                             0

My stats:

### Saved by version 1.7.0 of EnhSimGUI

race                            tauren
mh_speed                        2.6
oh_speed                        2.6
mh_dps                          216.5
oh_dps                          216.5
mh_crit                         42.08
oh_crit                         42.08
mh_hit                          12.90
oh_hit                          12.90
mh_expertise_rating             139
oh_expertise_rating             139
ap                              5565
melee_haste                     10.90
armor_penetration               19.24
str                             145
agi                             1269
int                             651
spi                             165
spellpower                      1670
spell_crit                      30.04
spell_hit                       16.13
spell_haste                     8.39
max_mana                        13881
mp5                             0

Mengus · 08/17/09, 11:17 AM

[quote=Yoquh;1352312]When i put in the stats i get from exporting my char with the same gear as the OP to enhsim, i don't get the same stats for my char.

Were you using the same gems/chants?

Myranne · 08/17/09, 11:38 AM

There is currently a gear setup via Rawr! that is reaching 9791 dps (according to Rawr, and it doesn't appear to have any of the ilvl 272 items in its cache.) but sadly EnhSim cannot seem to find the trinkets and their procs... anyway to solve the issue so I can get the combat log simulation done properly and post here?

Sylvand · 08/17/09, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by Myranne

There is currently a gear setup via Rawr! that is reaching 9791 dps (according to Rawr, and it doesn't appear to have any of the ilvl 272 items in its cache.) but sadly EnhSim cannot seem to find the trinkets and their procs... anyway to solve the issue so I can get the combat log simulation done properly and post here?

You can post issues like these in the EnhSim thread. Can you list the gear setup there or PM it to me? AFAIK there is only one trinket not implemented in the latest EnhSim version, although I'm not sure what ilvl 272 gear you're talking about.

Gondlem · 08/18/09, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Sylvand

You can post issues like these in the EnhSim thread. Can you list the gear setup there or PM it to me? AFAIK there is only one trinket not implemented in the latest EnhSim version, although I'm not sure what ilvl 272 gear you're talking about.

Presumably the cloaks from the tribute chest? Sylvanas' Cunning for example.

n3m3sis · 08/20/09, 4:16 AM

Did anyone actually sim [Reign of the Unliving] ? If the charges proc from flametongue (like TC and LC ) would definitely be the best trinket, if not can still be open for discussion.

Mogadee · 08/21/09, 9:01 AM

I was told from a reliable source that the Totem of Quaking Earth is in fact supposed to proc 200 AP and 200 SP; not the healing power that it does now. So given that if ToQE were to be corrected, which I hope and believe it will be, would it still fall short of Totem of Electrifying Winds?

Found this to help support my claim. Which was posted by Rouncer here.

We have a report from someone who talked to a GM about [Totem of Quaking Earth]

Interestingly enough: Talked to a GM and they said they were aware that the totem was bugged and should be proccing spellpower, not healing power.

post #155 in this thread World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Why does Enhance get the worst totem again?

Levva · 08/21/09, 9:26 AM

Originally Posted by Myranne

There is currently a gear setup via Rawr! that is reaching 9791 dps (according to Rawr, and it doesn't appear to have any of the ilvl 272 items in its cache.) but sadly EnhSim cannot seem to find the trinkets and their procs... anyway to solve the issue so I can get the combat log simulation done properly and post here?

Sigh. What part of Rawr doesn't put items in the cache do people still not get. YOU have to put items in YOUR cache. It initially does this by loading your char from the Armoury. It also adds things when you click on update item cache from Wowhead or Armoury. You can also simply add the items manually. Either by adding by item id or by creating a new item and adding the stats.

It is YOUR responsibility to have items YOU are interested in, in YOUR Rawr cache. When it ships Astrylian simply does a sweep of wowhead and gets whatever was up at the time, this then appears as the default itemcache. Remember though that with any new data this will take time to drop and appear on wowhead. The problem comes wowever when you install the default item cache doesn't overwrite existing cache files if you simply install new version over the top of old. Hence all the crying that Rawr doesn't have X item.

So if you are serious about theory crafting you should be aware and ready to actually update your own personal item cache.

Originally Posted by Mogadee

I was told from a reliable source that the Totem of Quaking Earth is in fact supposed to proc 200 AP and 200 SP; not the healing power that it does now. So given that if ToQE were to be corrected, which I hope and believe it will be, would it still fall short of Totem of Electrifying Winds?

Unless your "reliable source" is a developer inside Blizzard, its pure speculation, largely based on findings posted in this and other threads on EJ.

This is one of the biggest drawbacks of the current EnhSim version that doesn't exist in Rawr or the planned jEnhSim. All of the items in EnhSim are coded by the developer so if we have a data error users cannot change the items and try out the effect of the change. Rawr.Enhance is different you can very very easily change the data manually and see if it makes a difference. jEnhSim plans to follow this route and ensure that users can modify such behaviours and so we don't always need new versions of code simply because new item (trinkets, totems etc) are available.

Vespasian · 08/22/09, 2:44 AM

Updated

A few notes:

1) Began employing the latest version of enhsim- 1.8.3.2

2) Enchanted Tear + Nightmare Tear are the maximum DPS combination of blue gems required for the meta, however given how expertise starved we are it works out to be better to use a Nightmare Tear and a Guardian's Dreadstone.

3) This set is below the expertise cap by 2 rating. Efforts to cap expertise at the expense of other stats results in a DPS loss. While I have not simmed it out, I would imagine that Orcs choosing axes instead of the maces (in an effort to cap their expertise) would result in a significant DPS loss due to the value of haste typically being higher than the value of hit.

4) MW3/4_CL is now a significant DPS loss as it does not proc our totem. We gain about 90 DPS by using MW3_LB in the last slot of our ability priority order.

ANSeranov · 08/23/09, 2:00 AM

Originally Posted by n3m3sis

Did anyone actually sim [Reign of the Unliving] ? If the charges proc from flametongue (like TC and LC ) would definitely be the best trinket, if not can still be open for discussion.

I just got the caster DPS trinket from 10man ([Talisman of Volatile Power], which doesn't count Flametongue procs as casted spells) and the 25man version works the same in what it considers spells, it most likely will not work with Flametongue crits.

I cannot speak from personal experience, however.

n3m3sis · 08/23/09, 3:18 AM

Originally Posted by ANSeranov

I just got the caster DPS trinket from 10man ([Talisman of Volatile Power], which doesn't count Flametongue procs as casted spells) and the 25man version works the same in what it considers spells, it most likely will not work with Flametongue crits.

I cannot speak from personal experience, however.

We are talking about different trinkets my friend. Anyway, if someone gets it somehow for testing from 25 normal, please check if charges proc from flametongue (it should since it says any damaging spell).

Zerobaha · 08/25/09, 9:54 PM

Wouldn't it be better to socket a Relentless earthsiege diamond in the meta and only use 1 Nightmare Tear ?
You would gain 21 agi and 40 ap and you would lose 21 crit + 6 to all stats. I would go with that one.
And should i really use the agi/crit ametrine with a 4 agi + socket bonus . Cause Rawr tells me to use agi /haste ones.

Imadraenei · 08/25/09, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Zerobaha

Wouldn't it be better to socket a Relentless earthsiege diamond in the meta and only use 1 Nightmare Tear ?
You would gain 21 agi and 40 ap and you would lose 21 crit + 6 to all stats. I would go with that one.
And should i really use the agi/crit ametrine with a 4 agi + socket bonus . Cause Rawr tells me to use agi /haste ones.

This is a best-in-slot list, so whatever gems it uses are tailored for that gear set. RAWR tells you to use Agi/Haste ones because that's what works for *your* gear.

Morthis · 08/26/09, 6:59 AM

Originally Posted by Zerobaha

Wouldn't it be better to socket a Relentless earthsiege diamond in the meta and only use 1 Nightmare Tear ?
You would gain 21 agi and 40 ap and you would lose 21 crit + 6 to all stats. I would go with that one.
And should i really use the agi/crit ametrine with a 4 agi + socket bonus . Cause Rawr tells me to use agi /haste ones.

You need to consider the socket bonus gained as well, if you do not have a good socket bonus to gain it is most definitely not worth it. Obviously the first good blue socket bonus will be used by the nightmare tear, so you need a second one. With a good socket bonus, say 12 ap, the enchanted tear setup will be a tiny bit better.

Using fairly standard EP values (crit - 1.9, agi - 1.7, int - 1.5, str - 1.1).

Enchanted tear EP value: 6 * 1.7 + 6 * 1.1 + 6 * 1.5 = 25.8 EP
Bright Cardinal Ruby EP value: 40 EP

Setup 1: Enchanted tear + chaotic skyflare meta

25.8 (tear) + 12 (socket bonus) + 21 * 1.9 (meta) = 77.7

Setup 2: Bright cardinal ruby + relentless earthsiege meta

40 (ruby) + 21 * 1.7 (meta) = 75.7

The enchanted tear setup has slightly higher EP value, and the added advantage of slightly more stamina. This obviously only applies if you're gemming bright cardinal rubies, if you need more hit or exp from gems then gem for that instead and use relentless.

Mjoedvitnir · 08/26/09, 7:08 AM

I've figured out an own BiS Setup for Orc Enhancer, maybe not interesting for all of us, but i guess there are enough Orcs out there. I get ~9445 dps out of it, here it is:

Rawr XML: RapidShare: 1-CLICK Web hosting - Easy Filehosting
EnhSim cfg: RapidShare: 1-CLICK Web hosting - Easy Filehosting

And erm.. Sorry if it has been already answered but, why don't you use 280 SP from Totem of Wrath instead of 165 from Flametongue Totem?

Mogadee · 08/26/09, 10:05 AM

Currently ToEW is our best option for totem due to ToQE being 'incorrect' in game. Since this is about theorycrafting, how would ToQE hold up to ToEW if instead of the 200 AP and the 234 healing SP, it proc'd 200 AP and 200 SP?

I am not familiar with coding or modifying code to change the value of an item in either Rawr or enhsim.

Morthis · 08/26/09, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Mogadee

Currently ToEW is our best option for totem due to ToQE being 'incorrect' in game. Since this is about theorycrafting, how would ToQE hold up to ToEW if instead of the 200 AP and the 234 healing SP, it proc'd 200 AP and 200 SP?

I am not familiar with coding or modifying code to change the value of an item in either Rawr or enhsim.

You wouldn't need any way to sim that, it would clearly be superior.

ToQE has already been tested on these forums and people found that it should have 100% uptime on a typical fight. Even if we assume ToEW has 100% uptime too (which from what others have said, it's more like 70%), 200 AP + 200 SP typically has a higher EP value than 200 haste.

Now the value of haste differs a lot between different gear setups because of how it interacts with the windfury cooldown, but even in situations where haste is valued at or close to 2 EP, ToQE would be worth about the same with a more reliable uptime and the ability to use CL without wasting totem procs.

Rouncer · 08/26/09, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Mogadee

Currently ToEW is our best option for totem due to ToQE being 'incorrect' in game. Since this is about theorycrafting, how would ToQE hold up to ToEW if instead of the 200 AP and the 234 healing SP, it proc'd 200 AP and 200 SP?

I am not familiar with coding or modifying code to change the value of an item in either Rawr or enhsim.

Quaking Earth destroys Electifying Wind at 200AP/200 Spellpower. It also beats it soundly at 400 AP and at 200 Agi. Basically if they correct the ilevel discrepancy in any way that would make sense, it is the better option. Which is pretty obvious if you think about it since EW only has about a 85% uptime (with 4T8 and with only a single target) while QE is around 96%.

Easiest way to check, without recoding the sim, is to run the sim with Quaking Earth and then use the uptime percentage to add the proper amount of additional stats and then to rerun the sim.