I've been working on updating the TTT section on runspeed versus alternate enchants and it seemed like it would be worth starting up a thread for further discussion.
Current "Facts"
- Icewalker is 20 dps more then Cat's Speed
- Icewalker is 25 dps more then Tuskarr's Speed
- Runspeed and Ghost Wolf do not stack
- Instant Ghost Wolf costs 18dps (Amount of dps lost from dropping 2 points in Improved Shields)
- Ghost Wolf can only be considered for specific encounters as it only works outdoors.
From those facts we can derive how much time has to be spent in motion per encounter for runspeed or Improved Ghost Wolf to be more dps then the alternatives.
So for a shaman outputting 5000dps on a 5 minute encounter they will have to spend at least 15 seconds in motion for Runspeed to be superior to Icewalker. That number will decrease as personal dps rises.
If the encounter is outside then the shaman could use Icewalker and Improved Ghost Wolf for a net dps gain before even considering time spent in motion. For the sake of the argument, if we remove the enchants and just consider the talent choices then the shaman has to spend 0.5 seconds per minute in motion between targets for Improved Ghost Wolf to be more dps then the alternate talent choices.
Freya happens to be a perfect fight for Improved Ghost Wolf. So how much of a dps boost would those 2 points give on that encounter? If we assume that 15% of the 5 minute fight is spent traveling between targets, that's 45 seconds spent in motion. That time would be reduced by 18 seconds if Improved Ghost Wolf was in use. Eighteen seconds of additional dps is 90,000 damage (assuming 5000dps) or a 300dps overall increase on that encounter for 2 talent points.
There are 9 encounters in Ulduar where Improved Ghost Wolf is wasted talent points. That's roughly 45 minutes (2700 seconds) of boss fighting. Spending those 2 points on Improved Shields grants an additional 18 dps on all of those encounters. 18 x 2700 = 48,600 damage. So placing those points into Improved Ghost Wolf ends up being worth roughly twice as much overall damage as spending them on Improved Shields and that isn't even taking into account the dps gained if you happened to get gravity bombed on XT.
1. In my experience, uber min-maxing is usually only required for the first few kills on a boss, either because folks learn it better or you get better gear eventually etc. So it's not unreasonable to min-max Freya (esp. hard mode) with little regard for the rest of the fights.
2. How do we quantify the effect of a run speed saving your life (or someone else's)? Is it something we can even do? Among the situations I'm picturing are exploding lashers, iron roots (esp. with exploding seeds), gravity bomb, dream rooms, cosmic smash and big bang. I'm sure there are a lot more as well.
While it is true that nine fights are indoors, there are an additional two fights (Razorscale and Ignis) where I'd say Improved Ghost Wolf won't really be used. The few times (if at all) during those fights that you need to cover some ground the distance is usually so short that casting GW really isn't appropriate.
So that really leaves us with XT and Freya. In this case, would we want to revise the lost damage from Improved Shields to 59,400 (from the initial 48,600)?
It'll be interesting to see where this goes. I personally won't be using GW, simply because it'll irritate me to no end (the constant shape-shifting). But the the theorycrafting should be interesting.
Would the availability of Spirit Walk enter into this discussion?
The only issue with that is that summoning Spirit Wolves just for the Spirit Walk would most likely be a dps loss unless you are planning on Bloodlusting at that moment (or you are sure their cooldown will be back up by the time you are ready to lust) and if you are summoning them for the speed increase then the boss is in motion and it probably isn't a great time to be lusting anyway.
Originally Posted by Kyro
While it is true that nine fights are indoors, there are an additional two fights (Razorscale and Ignis) where I'd say Improved Ghost Wolf won't really be used. The few times (if at all) during those fights that you need to cover some ground the distance is usually so short that casting GW really isn't appropriate.
So that really leaves us with XT and Freya. In this case, would we want to revise the lost damage from Improved Shields to 59,400 (from the initial 48,600)?
It'll be interesting to see where this goes. I personally won't be using GW, simply because it'll irritate me to no end (the constant shape-shifting). But the the theorycrafting should be interesting.
I've used Ghost Wolf on Razorscale so remove that one. I also didn't count either of those because the you can shift on those fights meaning the talents have value even if the value happens to be low. There are 9 fights where you can't shift meaning the talent points have no value whatsoever on those fights, which is what I based my math on.
Also consider that the 90k damage is just from Freya, I didn't bring XT into the plus side for Improved Ghost Wolf and it certainly would be there since getting gravity bombed just once would mean that Improved Ghost Wolf was a better place to spend those talent points.
How much of a issue is this really? I haven't run with a Runspeed Enchant for a long time. I either run with AP, or Icewalker. In most of the fights you can continue to move and keep DPSing.
Freya Hardmode, no reason for run speed, atleast with the way we do it. XT could benefit some but its so RNG, I've been hit with gravity bomb debuff out of weeks and weeks of clearing. Cosmic Smash you should almost never have to run out of melee range if your doing it the right way. Yogg vision rooms I can see where that might make sense depending on your assignment in the different rooms. Big bang, again depending on your strat that has little no effect. I know this is not a strat thread, so I will not go into pure detail on the above encounters, but I will answer vis PM. As of now if I look at all my of DPS together of raid history, I will net more DPS by not having the run speed enchant and go with the more pure DPS enchant. I can see where some would want the run speed depending on how they do certain content.
How much of a issue is this really? I haven't run with a Runspeed Enchant for a long time. I either run with AP, or Icewalker. In most of the fights you can continue to move and keep DPSing.
Freya Hardmode, no reason for run speed, atleast with the way we do it. XT could benefit some but its so RNG, I've been hit with gravity bomb debuff out of weeks and weeks of clearing. Cosmic Smash you should almost never have to run out of melee range if your doing it the right way. Yogg vision rooms I can see where that might make sense depending on your assignment in the different rooms. Big bang, again depending on your strat that has little no effect. I know this is not a strat thread, so I will not go into pure detail on the above encounters, but I will answer vis PM. As of now if I look at all my of DPS together of raid history, I will net more DPS by not having the run speed enchant and go with the more pure DPS enchant. I can see where some would want the run speed depending on how they do certain content.
How about less anecdotes and more math? Also I can't even imagine a Freya hardmode strategy that doesn't involve some movement between targets, unless you are talking about a burn strategy and those were killed by hotfix the same week that the kill occured.
By the way I took a look at your Armory and I can get an additional 50dps out of your gear, but since this is not a gear thread I won't go into details here but I will answer vis PM.
I'm one of the minority that has been going with ghost wolf for enh as the numbers for me worked out better. Last Ulduar25 that I was enhancement I used ghost wolf for 36 seconds on boss fights (2' 26" in overall raid combat) and it saved me roughly 15 seconds of movement on boss fights, averaging about 5k dps on those fights (hey, this is offspec for me so don't pick on it) I gained roughly 75,000 damage from ghost wolf. If I added 10% to my lightning shield boss damage I would have gotten roughly 55,000 damage. So the net gain for the raid was 20,000 damage by opting for ghost wolf rather than the points in improved shields. Not significant, but if I regularly raided enhancement I am sure I could get way more benefit in Ulduar from ghost wolf on boss fights than I did. So the ghost wolf choice also has further room for improvement with skill.
In addition, on XT using ghost wolf to get out of the melee group faster with light bomb can prevent melee dps deaths and that is hard to place a value on.
Is it really necessary to give up Imp Shields for Ghost Wolf? I run with both. I took the points from Imp SS, as my mana hasn't been a problem.
There is no mandate to take the point from anywhere. The suggestion to take it from Improved Shields derives from discussion about pulling a point from Call of Flame, which is a significant dps loss compared to pulling it from Imp Shields.
I like having two points in Improved Stormstrike but I can certainly understand the rationale to pulling a point there for Improved Ghost Wolf. Taking the point from Imp SS gives even more value to Ghost Wolf but since mana consumption is a lot harder to model, especially when you have to consider a wide assortment of fights to truly value Imp GW since it can't be used on many of them, it just seemed more accurate to use 2 points from Imp Shields for the comparison.
The math would be much simpler if Imp GW allowed it to be used in all raiding conditions (ie usable indoors) but that is not an option at this time so it becomes necessary to consider all the raid encounters you will be participating in to determine the real value for those two points.
Is it really necessary to give up Imp Shields for Ghost Wolf? I run with both. I took the points from Imp SS, as my mana hasn't been a problem.
There are to many cases where you want Imp SS. Fights like HM General, you will have mana issues without in a huge way. Other fights you will be using SR earlier and possibly more then once. The only time that mana has become an issue with Enhance is fights where you are constantly redeploying magma totem. As rouncer has stated the very limited encounters that you can even use GW.
On a side note, T9 2 piece bonus will greatly benefit from using 3/3 Imp Shields, and from simming it looks as though the Lightning Shield glyph will be equal to or greater than windfury glyph by ~3 dps. So, sacrificing those points looks less likely to me as perhaps the next person.
The way I look at it is this; most other melee don't have a way to shift forms and move faster in any situation besides a Druid (who has a sprint in cat form). Rogues can sprint (cooldown == feral spirit), Warriors Charge/Intercept, Paladins have their talented run speed, DK's don't usually have Unholy aura except with their special DW build atm and I doubt they waste rune cooldowns popping between them for a short duration of time (<20 sec).
We enchant run speed, and if absolutely needed, we can pop our wolves if we're not riding the cooldown on some fights where we use them situationally; i.e. Yogg-Saron.
I use the wolves for Brain phases 1 and 3 in one light yogg in 25. But you can be assured that if I find myself in this spot, which has happened maybe 1 or 2 attempts out of the many, many on this fight, where I might hit a cloud, I will absolutely pop my wolves to sprint between 2 before they close the only opening left just to avoid touching a cloud. However rare occurrence this has been (twice at most) I will do whatever it takes to avoid putting the raid or myself at great risk. Obviously to even be in such a position would be mostly my fault anyway.
On a personal note, I really wish they would add minor run speed as a part of the engineering enchant to boots, as then I would definitely consider dropping LW for Engi on a personal level. Also, Ghost wolf should just be allowed inside god dammit, and minor glyphed to be instant. Fuck.
Last edited by kaoticz : 07/29/09 at 5:37 PM.
Reason: Talked with rouncer about disagreement in pm.
On a side note, T9 2 piece bonus will greatly benefit from using 3/3 Imp Shields, and from simming it looks as though the Lightning Shield glyph will be equal to or greater than windfury glyph by ~3 dps. So, sacrificing those points looks less likely to me as perhaps the next person.
On a personal note, I really wish they would add minor run speed as a part of the engineering enchant to boots, as then I would definitely consider dropping LW for Engi on a personal level. Also, Ghost wolf should just be allowed inside god dammit, and minor glyphed to be instant. Fuck.
50% more static shock procs means that the talents gain 50% more value so it goes from 9dps per talent point to 14.5dps per talent point. Call of Flame is still 25dps per talent point (single target) so I don't see dropping a point there for an extra point in Improved Shields. I also think Ghost Wolf is worth more then 29dps, especially if we get to use it throughout the Colosseum.
As for your personal note, I couldn't agree with you more, well maybe not about the runspeed to rocketboots (too overpowered considering they give 24 crit rating - although dropping the rocket part and just making them runspeed + 24 crit would work well) but it Ghost Wolf should definitely work indoors or at least in all raid environments.
I am not sure where you are drawing your encounter durations from. I went and checked average encounter duration according to World of Logs and found the following results.
Encounter
Duration (mins)
Razor
7
XT
9
Ignis
5
Council
8
Kologarn
5
Auriaya
6
Mimiron
10
Freya
8
General
8
Yogg
13
Algalon
6
Total
85
Total less XT and Freya
68
These numbers are fairly in line with the numbers I had in my earlier posts on this subject.
Despite any anecdotal evidence to the contrary, I totally reject the claim that Razor or Ignis can be included in this discussion as the run time on these encounters is so minimal that it is not worthy of consideration. The only encounters where real GW provides real benefit are Freya and XT
Therefore, 18 DPS (2 points in Imp Shields) x 4800 seconds = 73440 dmg.
At this point, the discussion becomes purely theoretical as it the outcomes rely too heavily upon RNG. While I do not think that it is unfeasible to be running for around 45 seconds during a Freya attempt, it is just as likely that are you spending no more than 10-20 seconds because the RNG gods have been kind to you. The same applies for XT. While you will certainly do more dmg (at least in the case of Freya) it is impossible to predict whether that increased dmg will be sufficient to off-set the lost 73440.
Instead, we have to settle for understanding the breakeven points and then making an informed choice after that point. If you know that you will lose 73440 dmg over the course of an Ulduar run, then you can decide whether or not the extra *potential* DPS that *might* occur from Ghostwolf could be worth it. If you are learning the encounters (XT/Freya) then the answer is likely yes since you will be spending more total time on the encounters and would be more likely to derive benefit. If you have them on farm, then there is just as much chance that you will derive no benefit at all from GW as there is that you would derive benefit. It is a roll of the dice.
As an aside, the total dmg value of LS will increase by 50% with the T9 bonus. This means that in a 5 minute encounter for a shaman doing 7k DPS (which will be an average DPS figure for 3.2) they will need to be running for a total of 4.5 secs for Imp GW to breakeven against 3/3 Imp shields. If the Coliseum is indeed an outdoor area, then those points in Imp GW would almost certainly be worth far more DPS than Imp Shields. Now all we need is someone on the PTR to check this out for us.
Instead, we have to settle for understanding the breakeven points and then making an informed choice after that point. If you know that you will lose 73440 dmg over the course of an Ulduar run, then you can decide whether or not the extra *potential* DPS that *might* occur from Ghostwolf could be worth it. If you are learning the encounters (XT/Freya) then the answer is likely yes since you will be spending more total time on the encounters and would be more likely to derive benefit. If you have them on farm, then there is just as much chance that you will derive no benefit at all from GW as there is that you would derive benefit. It is a roll of the dice.
I think you're on to something here. The DPS gain from GW is going to change from person to person depending on how the fights generally go for your guild. My ranged DPS still sometimes miss trees on Freya, and I end up having to run over there and burst them down at the last second. So what has to be considered, and this isn't exactly something you can model mathematically, is that the times that you are using it very well could be preventing a wipe. It's the same issue as spending a MW5 stack on bombing a healing wave on your MT when they would have otherwise died. Sure you show up at something like 1-2% of the total effective healing and lose a little DPS, but those heals were way more important than the DPS loss involved. Such is the life of a hybrid player in a casual raiding guild. Like you suggested, I do find that I use it less during farm content. I would suggest doing a raid with GW talented and see how much time you use it, and calculate personal DPS loss/gain accordingly.
Again, its a matter of optimal performance. If you have to save the day by throwing a heal, you aren't producing maximum DPS. If you are focusing on targets designated to ranged DPS, again, you aren't producing top output. If we don't focus on strict DPS, than no discussion here will be able to model the thousand permutations of 'what if' and 'utility' play that we offer as a class.
My question regarding this discussion is whether or not our ability to DPS somewhat at range helps to offset any of the assumed 'downtime' we have away from the boss. Take the IC Overload for example, I'll have a fresh Magma down, usually jump spin an Earth Shock if its up when running out, throw a lightning bolt with whatever stacks of MW I have and throw another(or first) Earth Shock on the way back in. XT is similar for Gravity Bombs, you can still do damage on the way in and out. The fact that your dogs may be active while you are running away would be averaged out the equation likely.
Freya is another monstrocity altogether. Does anyone sim specifically for that fight? Magma totem usage is far less than any other fight. Even with people grouped up, there are times when lashers are out of reach, when the Water Spirit is 30 yards away or you aren't near the Conservator when he spawns. It seems to me that trying to nail down any consistent numbers for Freya would be pretty difficult.
I'd vote for using two sets of boots, though ghost wolf used properly on Freya would be the best for that encounter based on its structure.
If the Coliseum is indeed an outdoor area, then those points in Imp GW would almost certainly be worth far more DPS than Imp Shields. Now all we need is someone on the PTR to check this out for us.
The Coliseum raid is closed (PTR boss testing is complete). I tried to Google that but your post was first. I suspect it is outside, but then there is a "roof" over the instance.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
IMO a really good thread and important. I am far away from the end game but having spent ages in KARA I do have an opinion. I do not use a speed boost now because our guild is dying and we rarely get to endgame even for 5 mans.
The speed increase was important on the prince in particular, dodging falling idols and in avoiding dragons dropping in and out. The speed increase might have been the difference between life and death many times, and death leading to wipes is a big deal. At that time dying on the Prince was a big deal.
Yet as we learned the fight the reaction speed to it and of course better gear and better teamwork decreased its value. I am not sure that this can be calculated, but then I have not been in most of the fights this contemplates.
For beginners I would bet it is the best for non dps reasons.
Very interesting discussion. I never really seriously considered imp GW, although I think it should be baseline with the mount casting times being reduced, but that's another discussion altogether.
Anyways, there are two points of contention here that I think are worth consideration.
The first, which has been mentioned is that whether you are learning boss fights or not will have an impact. However, it goes beyond the simple distinction of whether a boss is on 'farm' or a new 'progression kill'. Even after you have killed a boss for the first time, there is still a chance that you will wipe on them. This chance will be higher depending on how much total experience you have, your group composition, along with general random chance of people performing well.
The model presented here assumes that all bosses in Ulduar may be killed in one shot. However, I think it's still pretty realistic that most guilds will still have a wipe or two, even if they have cleared all of Ulduar and that they are more likely to wipe on the hard, later fights. While Freya isn't the easiest fight in Uld, it's not the hardest either. It's probably safe to say that a guild is a lot more likely to wipe on something like Algalon than Freya. Of course this leads to say that "it's a conditional advantage which depends on your guild progression" which has already been implied here, but beyond that, even for a guild that has all Uld bosses on farm, I think that given people are human and will make errors/wipe, the increased chance of wiping on harder bosses means that a more realistic perspective a full Uld clear puts Imp GW at a slightly larger disadvantage.
The second point is with respect to when you need the extra dps. This concept relates a bit to PvP in that you may have awesome overall dps, but if you aren't focusing that dps at the right time, you may not get the kill that you are aiming for. In PvP this would be focusing a spike on a healer, but in PvE it's focusing your dps on bosses that are either more of a dps race or are not as easily defeated. You may clear up to Mimiron, where you wipe for a few attempts before calling it for the night and get a higher proportion of outdoor movement fights to indoor fights, but the extra dps has a higher net worth on the Mimiron fights than the easily killed Freya fight.
This part really comes to a question of why you are min/maxing your dps. Are you more concerned with decreasing the time you spend killing bosses in a raid or are you trying to reduce the chance of wiping on a boss?
All being said, I have to admit that imp GW is now on my radar of PvE skills and if it will be usable in the Colluseum, then I will definitely pick it up. I know for farming and doing dailies, I would love to have the higher dps of a PvE build along with the faster travel of imp GW.
There was a pretty intense discussion in the Unholy DK thread a month or two back about the value of increased movement speed. It ended up swinging from Improved Unholy Presence is a must have (i.e., run speed is huge. this conclusion was largely based on that comprehensive post on the subject of run speed and dps, which I can't find anymore) to IUP is completely optional. The discussion largely centered on the fact that Frost Shock and DC (i.e., instant ranged attacks) mitigated the dps loss from moving slightly slower and combined with the dps value in freeing up those 2 talent points, it was essentially a wash.
Wouldn't similar factors apply to the Enhancement shammy discussion on run speed enchants/Improved Ghost Wolf? Specifically, that off-cooldown shocks or rare 5 stacks of Maelstrom which happen to be available during periods of required movement offset lost dps caused by not having improved run speed or improved ghost wolf?
Also, since shocking in Ghost Wolf form breaks form, if a target was within 20 yards, you'd only benefit from the increased run speed during the brief window in which ES was on cooldown (i.e., there would be ~1.5 second interruptions to your run speed boost every 6 seconds), right?
Also, since shocking in Ghost Wolf form breaks form, if a target was within 20 yards, you'd only benefit from the increased run speed during the brief window in which ES was on cooldown (i.e., there would be ~1.5 second interruptions to your run speed boost every 6 seconds), right?
That's a good point, but again, pretty situational. Ideally when you run out some nasty effect, you would use your shock/MW proc when you reach the necessary safe distance, then GW back to melee range. Breaking form to shock/cast does diminish the use of GW, but the advantage is still pretty clear when it's usable. I think it's still really a question of how many fights this is a possibility in and unfortunately, I'm not quite sold that it's frequent enough to be justified.
Imp GW being a wash overall in Ulduar for 2 talent points would be the best news I have ever heard from EJ regarding Enhancement over the years. It means that not all aspects of DPS can be theory crafted and parsed. It actually gives way to "personal preference" and "play-style" over raw numbers.
IF it turns out that it can be proven that those 2 points are "equally' spent on Imp shields vs. Imp GW, then people will be inclined to play better, if playing one of the 2 styles that suits them personally. If you are the type of shaman that Imp GW is a reflex "goto" button when you need to move go that route, In which case once you hit GW you don't come out until you are in melee range on the next target. If you are about shocking on the run then put the points in Imp shields, where you'll "wash" on the value of those 2 points for the overall average DPS for the night.
I just wanted to add that I forgot to include this in my first post, but XT shouldn't really be included when discussing fights you'd grab imp GW for.
I currently run out like any other DPS'r does when you get a Light Bomb or Gravity Bomb, except once I'm out of the raid, I ES/Use up whatever stacks of MW I have left, and then CAST Ghost Wolf in the final ~2 seconds and run back.
XT is an exception because you're standing there waiting for the debuff to fall off so you have time to cast it and then run back with it.
So really this is only useful for Freya. Ignis and Razorscale are kind of gimmicks. We'll see about the Coliseum though as to whether or not it is counted as indoors or out.
07/28/09, 2:32 PM
