• frmorrison

You are right, spending a GCD every 45 seconds (due to long DoT) isn't that bad, although you would want to recast FS with maybe 15 seconds left on the buff in case you get a resist. Holy Pallies cast Judgement to keep up a haste buff but get 4% free hit from talents.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Levva

The new Elemental totem does look interesting assuming changes to EnhSim still say haste is ok It does seem to ramp up quite predictably from a single Flame Shock, and would have a guaranteed 100% uptime after the ramp up giving a static 220 haste. Might be interesting.

Assumes of course that a) its a 100% chance of a stack from each period tick b) that a new FS refreshes the duration c) Flame shock back in Enh rotation.

Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Author of Rawr.Enhance an automated gear checking program that can generate config files for EnhSim.
Please use the EnhSim by Tukez, Sylvand & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps.
FAQ: Hit cap 342 Draenei, 368 Horde, Expertise rating cap 140 with 3/3 Unleashed Rage. Cap those before worrying about other stats.

 

Gbits

In an ideal situation, I'd argue that allowing user-configurable variables for just these sort of RL combat mishaps - as we have now for latency - would be valuable, especially for the reaction time impaired (like some of us who are over 35). I'm often frustrated knowing that I'm building a set for someone with perfect reflexes, while knowing exactly what my failings are and when/how often they tend to occur. A sim that allowed modeling for predictable human error would allow players like me to discover whether an alternate gearset might actually produce higher DPS based on our particular, imperfect playstyle. (One reason the AP-versus-haste discussion was settled before it started for me, for example.)

 

Ryethe

There's a big difference between making a mistake and having 3+ mobs on the screen. One is user error and the other "just happens" and we have no control over it.

By modelling as though no mistakes are made it gives us something to aspire to. Whereas if we model as though mistakes are made, then how do we determine what mistakes are normally made? What if I don't make those same mistakes every fight? Hell, what if I play perfectly that fight? Then the sim values mean nothing and I've potentially gimped myself.

 

• Raut

I understand why you would want something like that but this is EJ, where we theorize about maximum potential DPS. For better or worse. Look at any other spreadsheet or simulator and you'll see the same. Introducing more mobs or creating deviations in combat length is still done to perfect situations.

Not to mention that finding realistic values to populate brain_lag, sloppy_fingers and being_stupid with would be close to impossible. Personally I'm not retarded all of the time.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

Beercow

This will my last post on this subject in this thread, since I think we've gotten way off subject. I suppose my ultimate point is I'm happy to see a sim move in the right direction by attempting to model real world scenarios, environments, and encounters. I'm not saying it should model my mistakes, since I'm also striving to be a better player in general. But our current top end raid (hToC) doesn't have a patchwerk-like encounter, so it seems silly to use such an encounter as the basis for a sim. I don't have the perfect solution, but I can recognize that the small changes (like variable combat length) are moving us in the direction of a better sim overall.

 

Jessamy

Boss fight mechanics (from the perspective of melee dps) amount to various ways to implement certain factors:
1. Some of the time I'm not in contact with an enemy. I might be running away from something, or running toward something.
2. Some of the time I'm not attacking from behind and might get parried and dodged.
3. This is a lesser point, but sometimes I am attacking an add that is less than boss level. My hit and expertise combat stats will affect this combat differently. Level-based spell resist will happen differently.

What the sim does, is tell me what my dps could potentially be, while I am in position. If I know or estimate that I will be out of position 15 seconds out of a 6 minute fight or whatever, that doesn't affect the behavior the sim should try to model while I'm actually where I'm supposed to be to most effectively do my job.

As a dps player in a raid instance, you have to be flexible enough to succeed when boss fights become very complex, but your primary job remains to kill a boss. The simulator we use is designed to model your behavior when you are doing that -- killing a boss. It's then up to us to be smart about how to use the data it gives.

 

Nevets_69

I think that this is what people really need to keep in mind. It's a really good thesis statement for sim work in general, at least I think so.

That said, I think what people are trying to address with all these "extras", is that some stats, and I'm looking at haste in particular, are only good when we can sit behind a boss continuously. As we almost never get to do this, it would be good to know how much such stats suffer.

Elemental Shaman: You're OOM.
Enhancement Shaman: So are you.

 

◊ pewsey

One thing I'd like to add regarding the simulator is to again stress my desire to have a 'brain lag' function. This becomes quite important when a haste set, or an AP set Sim to very similar 'perfect results'. As my ability to press buttons exactly when MW5 pops or the cooldowns on ES/LL come up is somewhat diminished, such as we have with latency, missing out on those 'extra spells' would give me greater insight.

Even something like 'delay casting ES/MW45 for <x> after becoming active'. It can default to zero for the uber-twitchy players here.

Pewsey has heard about tact and discretion, but tends to regard them much as children view vegetables.
Nemesis: "Pewsey is single-handedly turning around every guy in the BB that didn't want to have kids."
Viator: Because I had a baby so I'm better than non-breeders.

 

Rouncer

Latency does that for you though, I normally pad my latency by 200ms to account for reaction time.

Alt mage - Rounce

 

aikouka

The Enhancement totem only requires 16 seconds to apply the three stacks as it only takes 2 Stormstrike cooldowns (since the third Stormstrike's cooldown doesn't matter as the final stack is applied immediately).

I haven't had a chance to personally check out most of the bosses that we've had a chance to fight so far on the PTR. Does anyone have an idea of how each totem fairs on the bosses such as Festergut, Rotface, Lady Deathwhisper, Gunship and Sindragosa? Well, it's mostly seeing if the Enhancement totem's mechanics won't facilitate near 100% uptime.

From watching a Sindragosa video, I'd see the stack for the Enh totem falling off during the air phase since there's a bit of waiting in which Flame Shock would probably still tick on Sindragosa providing better uptime. Deathwhisper and Gunship battles look to work with both from the limited parts of the fight that I could see.

 

Valsh

Latest patch notes updated and a few ablities with 20 minute cooldowns have be lowered to 10 minutes. Glyph looks untouched so far but can expect it to be updated to remain a 50% reduction(-10 minutes -> -5 minutes)

 

Deathicle

Which would by far make the Fire Elemental Glyph one of the big 3 to pick up - unless they also reduced its duration to 1 minute.

 

Utters

It's only the best assuming each fight is >7min and the boss stays close enough to the totem at all times so that the ele stays aggro-ed on the boss.

 

Levva

It doesn't actually Rouncer. Latency adds a delay to when the ability is next used (as an adjustment to GCD) but it doesn't affect ability X is available delay using it for Y seconds and use a different ability instead which is what I think is being asked for.

ie: A "oh bugger I didn't notice MW5 is available and I used X instead" thus delaying MW5_LB for a GCD. If we had a parameter that was default zero that added X seconds after MW5 became available before you used it. Or a percentage chance you'd not notice MW5 and use something else. This would allow such effects to be mimicked in sim so you could see the effect of missing a MW5 for instance.

Agreed that if people are looking for "I don't always press the button right on time and there's a bit of a delay" then they should be upping the Latency to something like 300-500 from the default 100-200.

Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Author of Rawr.Enhance an automated gear checking program that can generate config files for EnhSim.
Please use the EnhSim by Tukez, Sylvand & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps.
FAQ: Hit cap 342 Draenei, 368 Horde, Expertise rating cap 140 with 3/3 Unleashed Rage. Cap those before worrying about other stats.

 

Vlyxnol

My magma totem according to wol has been recently 725dps, My fire ele has been 1300 single target. On a multi target encounter like heroic anubarak its 2300 (laid in p3).

Assuming a 7min fight and if the glyph does infact reduce the CD by 50% without them changing its duration to 1min. The glyph would be worth (1300-725) * 120 / 420 = 164dps on a single target encounter for myself.

 

Rouncer

and on a 6 minute (or less) fight the glyph was worth 0 dps.

(e)bah, my mistake

Fire Elemental is a dps increase, that is understood. If the glyph stays at a 10 minute cooldown reduction there is no question that it would be our highest dps glyph. If the glyph is changed to cut the cooldown by 4 minutes, as expected, then it is only a dps increase for encounters that last more then 6 minutes and for those longer encounters the elemental's time on target is also going to come into play.

Alt mage - Rounce

 

Zayrinoke

Worth noting is that with a 10 minute Cooldown it will be the same as the duration on Sated, meaning that barring wipes it will be up for every boss in ToC since guilds typically wait for Bloodlust, especially on Heroic.

 

Rouncer

Which means that the glyph will only have value if it allows you to summon more then once per fight.

Alt mage - Rounce

 

Vlyxnol

What was shown here is that on a fight where you could drop a fire ele twice as a result of using Glyph of Fire Ele, the glyph would be worth 146dps. The following was stated and assumed as being the facts of the fight.... A, the glyph reduced the cooldown by 5min, B the fight length was exactly 7min, C the duration of fire ele is 2min, and D my magma would produce 725dps and the fire ele would produce 1300dps.

so.....

(1300-725) * 120 / 420 = 164dps

Granted i'm no math genius but pretty sure thats right... if it was a 6min fight and the glyph still reduced it by 50% thus making your second fire ele only have 50% uptime it would than be.... 575 * 60 / 360 = 96dps...


and of course... if the fight duration was too short that it would not allow for a second cast of your fire ele in the same fight its dps value is 0....

 

Levva

Sounds like we might have two new weapons that are viable to use in 3.3, Fire Elemental and Fire Nova, spewing out from the Fire Elemental ofc. Has anyone on the PTR tested if FN is centred on the totem or the Fire Elemental?

Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Author of Rawr.Enhance an automated gear checking program that can generate config files for EnhSim.
Please use the EnhSim by Tukez, Sylvand & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps.
FAQ: Hit cap 342 Draenei, 368 Horde, Expertise rating cap 140 with 3/3 Unleashed Rage. Cap those before worrying about other stats.

 

Tronso

The fire elemental totem would need to placed under the boss and boss would need to stay stationary in order to hit him with the new fire nova

 

Tronso

Its centered on the totem

 

Levva

I've just added the T10 bonuses to Rawr.Enhance now that we know the name of the set (Frost Witch's Battlegear). Initial calculations suggest that the 2 piece bonus has a 24.9% uptime and so will add around 3.07% bonus damage multiplier and the MW5 will have around 25.2% uptime which on 8456 AP (from BiS thread) gives extra 425.6 AP.

These calcs were done by loading the BiS file into the latest Rawr build and stepping through the new formulae for the T10 bonuses.

I then simply edited the T9 sets and changed the bonus name so that it the only dps difference would be to lose the T9 bonuses and grant the T10 bonuses. WITH NO OTHER CHANGE IN STATS, the T10 set bonuses were a 168.7 dps or 1.86% dps improvement over T9 set bonuses.

It occurred to me that people would also wish to know the change from T9 4 to T9 2 + T10 2 would be. So I set this up, again with ZERO other changes in stats. The T9 2 + T10 2 bonuses came out 88.81 dps or 0.98% dps upgrade over T9 4 piece. So it would appear that breaking the T9 4 piece bonus IS a dps upgrade for Enhancement without any consideration for T10 having higher stats on them in any case.

Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Author of Rawr.Enhance an automated gear checking program that can generate config files for EnhSim.
Please use the EnhSim by Tukez, Sylvand & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps.
FAQ: Hit cap 342 Draenei, 368 Horde, Expertise rating cap 140 with 3/3 Unleashed Rage. Cap those before worrying about other stats.

 

Tronso

The tooltip for [Glyph of Fire Elemental Totem] on the PTR is still the same as on live
"Reduces the cooldown of your Fire Elemental Totem by 10 min"
But when I tested it actually reduced CD by 8 mins, giving it a 2 min CD.
If this is intended then we can drop another fire elemental as soon 1st one expires, 2 min duration, 2 min CD.