Amothep

250 like the Tooltip say´s.

The Cd is 35 sec, the proc lasts 10 sec. It´s procing right after the Cd expires.
Not bat, but 63 Sp affects your Totems and Flameshock too.
The Hasterating just favoures the good ol´Boldspam


(sry for my english)

 

Caelwynar

Well, 250 * 10 / 35 = ~71.4 haste. I wouldn't trade 63 spellpower for that, personally, even though it is a very slight increase in DEP according to my numbers on Bink's spreadsheet.

 

cyloria

Enchanting

* Enchant Weapon - Black Magic now cause your harmful spells to sometimes increase haste rating by 250.

oops somehow did not see the posts above me.

 

fakestreet

Note that if you are able to time EM with the proc, it does increase the DPS value of Black Magic.

 

imsobuzzed

Did a little poking around on the PTR with a copy of my main. I found that base strength was greatly increased (+52) and that base stamina was also increased (+24). This is offset by substantial hits to base Intellect (-106) and Spirit (-81). The change to Spirt is ineffectual until such point as Spirit is made an important stat for Shaman, however, this may have an effect on newly leveling Shamen. The hit to Intellect is quite disturbing. Fully geared the change to my Elemental Shaman is a loss of 1090 mana and some crit chance with the gain of 300 HP. This change confuses me. What good does it do? I mean a base of 35 Int? I cant see starting a Shaman with such bad base stats. cast 1 or 2 LB and you are OOM? Coupled with abysmal Spirit even the increases to regen means mostly melee for newbie Shaman.

I then did some anecdotal testing of the new Fire Nova spell on target dummies. I found that, depending on the debuffs on the targets from other players doing testing, the Fire Nova would hit for 1700 to 2250 normal and 3400 to 4500 crit on the targets. Character is hit caped with 2800 spellpower using ToW, ToW glyph, LB Glyph, and LvB Glyph. I was talented 2/2 into the Improved Fire Nova talent. I do not see adding the Fire Nova glyph as viable for Elemental Shaman for end-game raiding as most boss fights are single target nukes. For trash it is enough with the 6 second CD to drop Magma totem amd get off one to two Fire Novas before the group is downed. I would still like to do more testing to see how well this scales with spellpower.

I will need to do some testing on Enhancement to see how this scales with AP and if it fits better with the melee rotation. I can say that due to the spell being instant cast it does not affect the white swings timer and will not reduce base white damage due to casting. For Enhancement the only concern then being its mana cost as using it, even on single target fights, when other key attacks are on CD results in a DPS boost.

The biggest disappointment here is the loss of the PvP stun effect from the talented version of the original totem.

 

doogless

The lower ranks of a lot of spells had their mana costs reduced, according to the patch notes. I'm not sure if that'll offset the loss of intellect, but I think that at least that's the idea.

 

imsobuzzed

Ill roll a new Draenei Shaman on the PTR today and try out the [1..10] leveling experience. I must say that I am not optimistic.

EDIT: A little further introspection on the subject has provided me this epiphany: Spell cost is typically a % of base mana. A reduced base mana pool results in the same base cost, however, higher int scaling at end-game should result in a lower spell cost in relation to overall mana pool. I will look at base mana pool at lvl 80 without gear and compare spell cost as a % of overall mana when geared. This may be a stealth buff.

 

Darian_TruBlade

The change is probably a reflection on the upcoming attribute overhaul in Cataclysm. Because Intellect is slated to replace spellpower, the base amount was possibly reduced to prevent an imbalance of some sort.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Roywyn

Spell cost is based on base mana. Which is the mana you have with 0 intellect, not the mana without gear. So, changing the naked intellect at any level doesn't affect the mana cost of spells, only changing the base mana at any level.
Your Base Mana at any level is your mana pool minus enchants minus mana from intellect. You gain 1 Mana/Int for 0-20 intellect, and 15 Mana/Int past 20 intellect, the amount of mana gained by intellect is also displayed on the character screen when hovering over intellect.

These extremely low caster stats and increase in Strength (of all stats) may also be a mix-up with another class.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

imsobuzzed

So I just culled the following information on Live vs. PTR for Base and Overall mana costs for spells.

Live to PTR showed a 1590 reduction in base & Overall mana pool. This comes out to over 25% reduction in Base mana and barely under 8% reduction in overall mana pool. (Staghelm : Dravniev for gear)

Live:
141 base Int/3.05 base crit/16mp5 base while casting
6231 Base Mana/20041 Overall mana as geared

Spell, Mana Cost, %Base, %Overall

Lightning Bolt, 421, 6.76%, 2.1%

Chain Lightning, 1096, 17.59%, 5.47%

Flame Shock, 380, 6.1%, 1.9%

Lava Burst, 421, 6.76%, 2.1%

Water Shield 100mp5 & 428 mana per orb results in 1.6% of base returned per5 and 6.87% of base per orb
Water Shield 100mp5 & 428 mana per orb results in 0.5% of overall returned per5 and 2.14% of overall per orb

PTR:
35 base Int/2.41 base crit/4mp5 base while casting
4641 Base Mana/18451 Overall mana as geared

Spell, Mana Cost, %Base, %Overall

Lightning Bolt, 395, 8.51%, 2.14%

Chain Lightning, 1027, 22.13%, 5.57%

Flame Shock, 336, 7.24%, 1.82%

Lava Burst, 395, 8.51%, 2.14%

Water Shield 100mp5 & 428 mana per orb results in 2.15% of base returned per5 and 9.22% of base per orb
Water Shield 100mp5 & 428 mana per orb results in 0.54% of overall returned per5 and 2.32% of overall per orb

Overall Mp5 has not changed so mana return as a % of overall mana pool is higher and higher when compared to the minute (about 6.25% rotational average) reduction in spell cost without any change to damage output. Its tough to call without specific modeling over various fight durations to calculate the overall impact but my gut feeling is that it is rather insubstantial at the gear level described but should prove more substantial for new 80's running 5 mans and starting in Naxx.

I'd be interrested to know how the changes stack up for similarly geared Enhancement Shaman. I am certain the boost to base Strength will increase base and overall damage output and make up for that with tighter mana usage for that build.

 

• Binkenstein

Your numbers are... off. Base mana cost of LB is 10%, and your base mana figure for live is way off (it's ~4.3k).

 

imsobuzzed

OK, to clerify, the spell costs were taken from the spell tool tips when moused over. I just tested and verified these costs are correct. The base mana is correct for my character when no gear is equipped. The spell cost as a percentage of base mana is calculated from these two figures. What it SHOULD be and what it REALLY IS may not jive. In that case do your own investigation and report your findings. Base mana on live is 6231 with out gear, not ~4.3k which is from the PTR. I stand by my investigative and Maths skills. Please dispute me with facts.

PS: All information is for Draenei Shaman, not Orc, Tauren, or Troll.

 

Zigizi

"Base mana" as it applies to spell cost, refers to the mana before any benefit from intellect or talents. Your number is probably coming from the base mana of a level 80 shaman (4396), plus the contribution from intellect, plus you probably have mana from talents like Ancestral Knowledge.

 

tarrick

Your armory shows that you have 20041 mana and 1045 Intellect. Subtract mana derived from intellect from your current mana pool to determine your base mana. Which comes to 4366 if I'm not mistaken.

 

Jeeru

Um, perhaps you have points in Convection as you look at your tooltip?

 

• Binkenstein

Lets use your armory as an example.

You have 1045 int, 20041 mana. 1045 * 15 (you get 15 mana per point of Int) = 15675 mana. 20041 - 15675 = 4366 mana, our base mana figure. 4366 * 0.1 = 437, the untalented cost of LB. 437 * 0.9 (mana cost with Convection, which you will have on live) = 394 (ok, so I'm off by one point, but I'm doing some fairly hefty rounding here)

 

Horac

To further this, to find your base mana do the following.

Remove all talents and gear. Mouse over your intellect stat on your character sheet. The tooltip that appears will show "xxxx mana gained from intellect" You need to subtract the "mana gained from intellect" number from your total mana pool naked and untalented. This will give you your base mana (in reality, so long as you have dumped all your talent points the numbers should work right even if you have all your gear equipped, however removing gear from the equation removes the possibility of something on the gear effecting the outcome).

As stated above, base mana should be 4396 for a live shaman toon.

Further information on base mana can be found by following this link.

Wowwiki - Base Mana

The information was last checked during the 3.08 patch. I don't recall any changes to base mana between that patch and current live.

 

imsobuzzed

Yes, yes yes. I understand that the actual base mana less int etc.... However, this does not detract from my analysis of spell cost at lvl 80 without gear vs with gear. The reduction in base Int results in a tangible cost increase when gear is not considered and still, at my gear level, there remains a slight increase in spell cost vs overall mana pool. How much off this is offset due to the hard reduction in spell cost and the fact that mana return is not reduced? From the spell costs being reduced we can conclude that base mana before int and talents are factored in has been reduced. The amount of Int received while leveling has been reduced shrinking native mana pool before gear is added. The amount of Int reduction negates the savings from lower cost spells due to the overall cost compared to the mana pool at specific Int levels. As more Int is added a point of equilibrium will be reached where the cast cost reduction of spells is equal to the reduction in overall mana pool. It appears that the spell cost reduction is ~6.2%. It is also apparent that for a lvl 80 Elemental shaman with 5/5 Ancestral Knowledge a gearless mana pool reduction of over 25% is experienced. The hard reduction in mana pool is 1590 mana when gearless or when geared, therefore, when the difference of 1590 is equal to ~6.2% the spell cost to geared mana pool is the same. So 1590/6.2 * 100 = ~25645 mana in 3.2 = 24055 mana in 3.3 and spell cost vs geared mana pool is the same. Granted this is without considering Mp5, water shield, and TS for mana return which have not changed.

 

Roywyn

Actually, you get 15 mana/int for intellect above 20, and only 1 mana/int for intellect below 20. Thus, 1045 intellect splits into 1045 = 20 (0 to 20) + 1025 (21 to 1045) and you get 20*1 + 1025*15 = 15395 mana from that. Thus nets you 20041-15395-250 (Chest Enchant!) = 4646-250 = 4396 Base Mana in 3.2.2 just like in the table.

Assuming the naked setting has no enchants either, this yields 4641- 15*15 - 20*1 = 4396 Base Mana, exactly like before.

You have 2/5 Convection on live. If you had 5/5 Convection on the PTR, this would give exactly the 6% spell cost loss you're reporting. Multiples of 1% Base Mana cannot produce the listed PTR costs.


Bottom Line so far from the PTR:
Naked Stats changed. Base Mana unchanged. Mana Cost most likely unchanged (reported difference may be explained with talent changes). Shaman lose around 1.5k mana and 0.6% spell crit due to stat changes (which may even be a bug/mix up).

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

• Binkenstein

I was wondering why I was a little bit off. Haven't looked at base mana stuff in a while (and who uses a mana enchant on their chest these days anyway?)

 

imsobuzzed

Very astute and correct. My bad for not taking the necessary care and consideration regarding talent choice differences. Therefore we have the following:
1) Base Mana and Spell cost has not changed.
2) Base int has been noticeably reduced resulting in a substantial loss of mana

 

Boondok

On topic...Unless I'm horribly mistaken, this will be a seldom used spell for ele, as aoe trash is usually insignificant. Now for bosses that have aoe, this would be somewhat useful, but only if it required being close to the boss (i.e Anub'arak HM).

 

Moshne

Most bosses that have relevant trash usually have an assigned place that the kills take place. (Sarth, Tidewalker, Solarian, Nightbane, Noth come to mind immediately) It wouldn't take much effort on our part to strategically place our "AE" totem ahead of time to make up for that. No, it isn't going to be as easy as using a "Call of" totem placement, but back in the 'olden days' we didn't have that.

Also, if we have our ToW dropped within 16 yards of the boss, we can use it anytime we'd otherwise use a shock while moving. With 27 seconds on our Flame Shock, refreshing it while moving isn't really as valuable as it used to be, and now we don't have to dip into closer range to use a moving shock, we can just fire a quick Fire Nova.

As unhappy as I am about losing the stun for PVP, and I'm sure my 2s team is going to suffer because of it, I'm looking forward to the new utility. Any new ability that makes a raid think that Elemental shaman are worthwhile beyond our ToW is a good change, especially if at some point it makes stacking more than one of us.

Has anyone tested the threat on Fire Nova? Knowing if its attributed to the shaman or the totem will give us a bit more knowledge about when it gets used.

It's much easier to make strategic moves when you aren't trying to hold your intestines in all the time. - Juice

 

Broxalar

First time poster so hopefully my info isn't worthless

Last time I was on the Ptr I was testing using call then pop a wind shear/fire nova and the mob attacked me so i'd assume the threat sticks to us.

Other things I'd like to note about the Fire nova spell is that

1. It cannot proc EF but it will still gain the 10% spell power bonus, it also does not benefit from EF of course.

2. It can proc EO, along with that any "on crit"-Reign of the Dead*had someone test that for me* trinkets seem to work with Fire Nova, but will not proc off trinkets like Illustration of the Dragon Soul.

 

Souai

I'm expecting it to only be worth using in a general dps cycle with three targets or more, unless the situation requires balanced burst damage on two targets. It's competing with a lightning bolt in most situations which is currently around 8k damage average including LO per cast. Trying to weave it into general casting isn't as much of a mess as I thought it would be. The clipping won't be that bad, particularly as we move closer to bis gear haste levels for ToC.

I hope there's a good opportunity on the PTR to test it in depth. My napkin math suggests that it will be quite nice with the glyph and just short of the damage done that perfect fire totem usage current is (with an added gcd cost that pushes it a little lower).

It's a very strong tool and as Moshne points out fills out our dead dps time while moving as an added bonus. You ideally would be able to use frost shock a majority of the time while moving as well and can fill the deadspace with a brief cast of a 1 sec CL, LvB or totem redrop. It feels like a pretty strong solution to most of our major flaws in encounters. I could be blinded by new tool splendor but I'm very much looking forward to it. The major downside of having it focused around a totem is somewhat countered by it's extended range and the likelihood of having to redrop totems anyway in encounters that exhibit dramatic positioning changes.

It covers a lot of our weak points and makes it much harder for Blizzard to design an encounter where we'll perform profoundly worse than other hybrid casters.