[Elemental] Patch 3.3: Now with more Fire Nova - Page 3

Shiyo · 10/07/09, 9:53 PM

Item - Shaman T10 Elemental 2P Bonus - Your Lightning Bolt spell reduces the remaining cooldown on your Elemental Mastery talent by 1 sec.
Item - Shaman T10 Elemental 4P Bonus - The cooldown on your Lava Burst ability is reduced by 15 sec.

From mmo. Obviously 4piece is inaccurate atm, 2 piece seems interesting enough, probably halving the CD on Elemental Mastery. Reducing the CD on LvB seems like it could be a big boost if it's significant enough.

CaptnIgnit · 10/07/09, 11:14 PM

correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't that 4pc counter our 2pc a bit? e.g. we're going to be doing less LB per min with our 4pc?

Also, will the 2pc make enough of a difference to stop using CL in our single target rotations?

ZachPruckowski · 10/08/09, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by CaptnIgnit

correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't that 4pc counter our 2pc a bit? e.g. we're going to be doing less LB per min with our 4pc?

Yeah, but you're picking up more "autocrits". +20% crit on ~20 casts (30 seconds) vs. getting 33% (assuming 2 seconds on the 4P) more LvB crits. So it still seems like a gain. And with all these duration-boosts to Flame Shock, that's even more Lightning Bolts. And this makes haste even more useful (every squeezed in LB isn't just an LB plus a potential LO, it's getting Elemental Mastery faster as well).

Shaman T10 Elemental 4P Bonus - The cooldown on your Lava Burst ability is reduced by X sec.

My money is on a 2-second reduction. Because a 6-second cooldown feels more natural than a 7-second cooldown.

Am I wrong to be worried that this makes our crit-scaling even worse? As crit levels rise, it seems like the value of Elemental Mastery and LvB go down. Crit-inflation strikes me as a component of the item level inflation they haven't really addressed and might need to (having already addressed armor pen and dodge, and being unwilling to change hit and expertise caps).

Zython · 10/08/09, 6:23 AM

Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

Yeah, but you're picking up more "autocrits". +20% crit on ~20 casts (30 seconds) vs. getting 33% (assuming 2 seconds on the 4P) more LvB crits. So it still seems like a gain. And with all these duration-boosts to Flame Shock, that's even more Lightning Bolts. And this makes haste even more useful (every squeezed in LB isn't just an LB plus a potential LO, it's getting Elemental Mastery faster as well).

First of all, EM was nerfed a while ago, it's +15% crit for 15s.

Also, if my calculations are correct, then the 2 piece is complete trash.

w/o 2 pc:

15/180 = 1/12 (rate EM is up)
15/12 = 1.25% (calculated crit from EM)

w/2 pc:

Assuming a 5/4 LB rotation over 16s, we have the remaining CD down 25s every 16s, so:

180/25 * 16 = 115.2 s (new EM CD)
15/115.2 = 25/192
15 * 25/192 = 1.95%

So we're looking at a +0.7% calculated crit chance, or ~32 crit rating, from the bonus. Now, this will obviously go up as haste increases, but it's still pretty lousy.

Souai · 10/08/09, 7:31 AM

It's sort of obvious but the current two piece does nothing at all for encounters that last between 0 and 115 seconds and 195 seconds and 230 seconds, varying based on your haste level. 35 seconds is kind of a big dead zone; hopefully the reduction amount is a placeholder. Its benefit will vary wildly depending on how long an encounter is.

It will also be funny if raid dps decreases an encounters duration from the best possible situation for the bonus to null effect. With only a 15 second difference between them, I can certainly see that happening. It's kind of splitting hairs though, since EM itself isn't a very strong cooldown as is.

lrdx · 10/08/09, 7:33 AM

Also considering the T9 4pc bonus' awesomeness, looks like the items itself will need a damn huge boost on stats to use 2T10 breaking 4T9.

titansol20 · 10/08/09, 7:35 AM

kind of off topic but the T10 4pc will take 15s LVB cd... im thinking this is a typo or their nerfing LVB

lrdx · 10/08/09, 7:53 AM

All of these numbers are placeholders.

orion121 · 10/08/09, 8:26 AM

Originally Posted by Zython

Stuff

Gotta remember EM represents a minor haste boost as well (placing LB at the GCD). Overall I concede the point that it is garbage (in all likelihood). Odds are LO procs will still trigger the effect, which is great, it just sucks that EM theoretically scales inversely to gear. Similarly it seems to work counter-productively with the recent CL buffs.

Assuming LO procs the effect:

(16+{9*1.3}) = ~28s reduced / ~18 seconds   
(Note: include LvB cast time) 

(180-1) / 28 = ~6.4 rotations between CD       
(Note: assumed initial LB from EM reduced cooldown, due to LB travel time)

New CD is ~115.2s
(Note: I found this number ironic as well)

15(%) * (15/115.2) = 1.95%

The interesting part is how this reacts with haste. Notice:

The 5/4 rotation requires a minimum practical haste rating of 510.88 (with raid buffs) which produces a 1.6 second LB.

At this haste level your GCD is 1.2s gaining you 0.4s of cast time every ~115.2s (usable while moving, though we'll ignore that)

At current gear levels a well geared shaman has between 1000 and 1100 Haste rating w/ ToEW

The 5(1) / 5(1) rotation requires a minimum practical haste rating of 1079.36 (with raid buffs) which produces a 1.39 second LB.

At this haste level your GCD is 1.04s gaining you 0.35s of cast time every CD, however...

16+{10*1.3}) = ~29.3s reduced / ~18 seconds 

(180-1) / 29.3 = ~6.1 rotations between CD      
New CD is ~109.8                             

15(%) * (15/109.8) = 2.05%

As noted, scaling inversely (though negligibly) with haste, at 5/4 EM = 0.35% haste while 5/5 = 0.32% haste (#TimeSaved/#Cooldown)

tl;dr Yeah it kinda sucks.

NOTE: Do not let my haste numbers fool you, haste only plateaus in a "perfect vacuum". In the words of Bink' "There is no haste cap" (1270 is soft-cap).

Dasteyy · 10/08/09, 8:27 AM

What im thinking is that the 2pc bonus could be right and in that case if we cast 30 LBs per minute the CD will now be 2 minutes.
That means on a fight that last 6 minutes and 15 seconds (lol I know). We will be able to use it 4 times instead of 3.
That means we get 15 seconds more where we have 15% crit. which I guess is 15% dps increase for 15 seconds.
That is 4% of the fight we will have 15% increased damage in which makes it worth roughly 0,6%.
I am not quite sure about this but doesnt it sound about right?

About the 4peace bonus lets say its 2 seconds, that means instead of using 7,5 Lava bursts per minute we will use 10.
That means we replace 2,5 LBs with 2,5 LvBs
Taken from a Wowmeteronline report of LBs on a static fight like Lord Jaraxxus. Average damage with 43,9% crit by LB is 8280 and average damage done by Lava burst is 14872.
The average damage by lava burst is with the set bonus so you have to calculate the set bonus away which would make average damage done by lava burst roughly 12400.
12400 - 8280 = 4120 * 2,5 = 10300 damage / 60seconds = 171,666 dps = For this guy roughly 2 - 2,5% damage increase

Not completely useless, but definitely not anything amazing either

orion121 · 10/08/09, 8:37 AM

Edited due to errors. Delete please.

Dasteyy · 10/08/09, 8:38 AM

No sorry might not have phrased myself right.
According to my math (which I doubt im good at) the 4 piece bonus is a 171 dps upgrade, not 171dps upgrade over our current one, which is what? 250, 300? Or something around that

Womprax · 10/08/09, 4:36 PM

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Tier-10 Set Bonuses Feedback

-15 sec cd for Lava Burst is official now.. Curious to see what they are doing with the spell now.

Vapid · 10/08/09, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by Womprax

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Tier-10 Set Bonuses Feedback

-15 sec cd for Lava Burst is official now.. Curious to see what they are doing with the spell now.

1.5 second, surely?

Teenee · 10/08/09, 4:48 PM

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Tier-10 Set Bonuses Feedback

Blue sauce says 1.5 now

Darktruth · 10/08/09, 4:56 PM

Shaman – Elemental

* 2 piece bonus - Your Lightning Bolt spell reduces the remaining cooldown on your Elemental Mastery talent by 1 second.
* 4 piece bonus - The cooldown on your Lava Burst ability is reduced by 1.5 seconds.

It's 1.5 seconds, meaning the new CD will be 6.5 seconds.

orion121 · 10/08/09, 5:13 PM

Originally Posted by Darktruth

It's 1.5 seconds, meaning the new CD will be 6.5 seconds.

Probably gunna net a slight DPS increase over current 4p given 18.75% more LvB and LvB is a much faster cast.

Agash · 10/08/09, 5:39 PM

Originally Posted by orion121

Probably gunna net a slight DPS increase over current 4p given 18.75% more LvB and LvB is a much faster cast.

Sure it will give more LvBs but it will also result in less CL/LB casts. Essentially, every minute you will replace one CL with a LvB which will equate to roughly a 83 DPS increase (assuming LvB averages 5k more than CL). That puts it at the bottom drawer of all set bonuses - possibly only beaten for the wooden spoon by our other set bonus. It will slightly increase out CC uptime but I can't see that taking the DPS increase to over 100.

orion121 · 10/08/09, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by Agash

Sure it will give more LvBs but it will also result in less CL/LB casts. Essentially, every minute you will replace one CL with a LvB which will equate to roughly a 83 DPS increase (assuming LvB averages 5k more than CL). That puts it at the bottom drawer of all set bonuses - possibly only beaten for the wooden spoon by our other set bonus. It will slightly increase out CC uptime but I can't see that taking the DPS increase to over 100.

Or you could replace a LB out of your rotation, instead of a CL and net a greater DPS increase. Though admittedly this is less DPS under hero/haste effects then the current T9 bonus where I'm sure I'm not the only one with ~1s LB's and CL/LvB well under the GCD.

Agash · 10/08/09, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by orion121

Or you could replace a LB out of your rotation, instead of a CL and net a greater DPS increase. Though admittedly this is less DPS under hero/haste effects then the current T9 bonus where I'm sure I'm not the only one with ~1s LB's and CL/LvB well under the GCD.

With the better scaling of LB, it is likely that by the time we have T10, the difference between LB and CL will be fairly low. Even now substituting the partial LB instead of the CL might take that 83 DPS up to 93. Still nothing to write home about.

Souai · 10/08/09, 9:02 PM

The replacing one lightning bolt with a lava burst every minute figure seems accurate. I'm guessing in T10 gear it will be about 100 dps, compared to our current 4pc of 300 dps, it's pretty weak. The two piece will be very variable, depending on encounter length. At best I see it as 150 dps for a perfect encounter length and the average will be something like 70 dps for moderate length single target encounters, getting worse for most faster or multi-target encounters.

The item level jump will probably be enough to use them but the margin is going to be tight. Depending on itemization we could be wearing anything from 4c T9 258 to 4pc T10 264 on average assuming same model of progression. The overlap will be weird because we'll have had time to get substantial but not complete 258 pieces from ToC and will likely have the same restrictions on acquiring the 277 IC gear.

I hope they tweak the numbers a bit or I'm making a calculation error in my dps estimations. I'm definitely less excited about T10 bonuses than I was for T9. CD reduction based on core ability use is interesting in itself though.

• Binkenstein · 10/09/09, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by Souai

The replacing one lightning bolt with a lava burst every minute figure seems accurate. I'm guessing in T10 gear it will be about 100 dps, compared to our current 4pc of 300 dps, it's pretty weak. The two piece will be very variable, depending on encounter length. At best I see it as 150 dps for a perfect encounter length and the average will be something like 70 dps for moderate length single target encounters, getting worse for most faster or multi-target encounters.

The item level jump will probably be enough to use them but the margin is going to be tight. Depending on itemization we could be wearing anything from 4c T9 258 to 4pc T10 264 on average assuming same model of progression. The overlap will be weird because we'll have had time to get substantial but not complete 258 pieces from ToC and will likely have the same restrictions on acquiring the 277 IC gear.

I hope they tweak the numbers a bit or I'm making a calculation error in my dps estimations. I'm definitely less excited about T10 bonuses than I was for T9. CD reduction based on core ability use is interesting in itself though.

Sorry, you'd be wrong about that.

Reducing the cooldown to 6.5 seconds from 8 seconds means you'll get 3 casts off inside the 18 second FS window. This gives roughly 375 more dps (with Glyph of Lava) with the previous T9 "best in slot" stat totals.

orion121 · 10/09/09, 1:09 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Sorry, you'd be wrong about that.

Reducing the cooldown to 6.5 seconds from 8 seconds means you'll get 3 casts off inside the 18 second FS window. This gives roughly 375 more dps (with Glyph of Lava) with the previous T9 "best in slot" stat totals.

Assuming:
1. FS GCD triggers after the effect lands
2. LvB has a 1s cast time
3. LvB does it's auto-crit check on cast-finish

How do you squeeze (6.5+1) into (18-1)?

kasouti · 10/09/09, 1:30 AM

Originally Posted by orion121

Assuming:
1. FS GCD triggers after the effect lands
2. LvB has a 1s cast time
3. LvB does it's auto-crit check on cast-finish

How do you squeeze (6.5+1) into (18-1)?

Using your gcd/cast time numbers it's 1 second gcd and 1 second lvb cast so.
18 seconds minus the FS
17 minus the lvb is 16
minus the 6.5 cd is 9.5
minus the lvb is 8.5
minus the 6.5 cd is 2
minus lvb is 1
So you'd have one second left if you used your numbers. So using your numbers it works fine <.<.

orion121 · 10/09/09, 1:57 AM

Originally Posted by kasouti

Using your gcd/cast time numbers it's 1 second gcd and 1 second lvb cast so.
18 seconds minus the FS
17 minus the lvb is 16
minus the 6.5 cd is 9.5
minus the lvb is 8.5
minus the 6.5 cd is 2
minus lvb is 1
So you'd have one second left if you used your numbers. So using your numbers it works fine <.<.

Yeah, sorry forgot to count the initial LvB.