[Elemental] Patch 3.3: Now with more Fire Nova - Page 8

Boondok · 11/07/09, 11:10 PM

Somewhat unsure where to post this, but here goes. With the new ability to change races from my tauren to troll/orc, I am undecided on which one to choose. I already notice that my CL/LvB are at (or at least rounded to) 1 second with full raid buffs, in fairly decent gear (~850 haste before totem), so in Icecrown I expect to be pushed closer and closer to 1 second lightning bolts. This makes me question the usefulness of the Berserking haste, as opposed to the spellpower gain from the Orc racial.

orion121 · 11/08/09, 5:26 AM

Originally Posted by Boondok

Somewhat unsure where to post this, but here goes. With the new ability to change races from my tauren to troll/orc, I am undecided on which one to choose. I already notice that my CL/LvB are at (or at least rounded to) 1 second with full raid buffs, in fairly decent gear (~850 haste before totem), so in Icecrown I expect to be pushed closer and closer to 1 second lightning bolts. This makes me question the usefulness of the Berserking haste, as opposed to the spellpower gain from the Orc racial.

LvB/CL hits 1s at 1270 haste rating (with raid buffs), while you may be close, 850+200 is still 220 short.
LB hits 1s 2540 haste rating. Even once you pass 1270 effective rating the haste difference of Berserking will still be higher assuming it's a single target and you're dropping the CLs.

tl;dr At no foreseeable point in gearing will haste take a significant dive in value. More over given the nature of haste buffs and the effect of haste scaling on elemental it's similarly unlikely that the benefit of the buff will deteriorate significantly over the course of the expansion.

LITTLER0TT · 11/08/09, 1:59 PM

His question was though( at least what I took from it.)

Which would you choose

Orc for Blood fury (163 spellpower every 2 minutes)(15 second duration)
or
Troll for Berserking (20% increased casting speed every 3 minutes)(10 second Duration)

I've actually been wondering this same thing.

Binkenstein · 11/08/09, 3:35 PM

Troll, but don't use it with bloodlust.

Of course, these are minor differences, and I'd never ever want to be a troll.

Souai · 11/08/09, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by orion121

LvB/CL hits 1s at 1270 haste rating (with raid buffs), while you may be close, 850+200 is still 220 short.
LB hits 1s 2540 haste rating. Even once you pass 1270 effective rating the haste difference of Berserking will still be higher assuming it's a single target and you're dropping the CLs.

tl;dr At no foreseeable point in gearing will haste take a significant dive in value. More over given the nature of haste buffs and the effect of haste scaling on elemental it's similarly unlikely that the benefit of the buff will deteriorate significantly over the course of the expansion.

I don't think this is correct. Simulationcraft shows a clear and sharp drop in haste EP once you pass the ~1270 mark, which given our 220 haste totem in Icecrown gives a paperdoll of 1050. I'm at 976 with half bis ToGC gear; I can't imagine there being 'no foreseeable point in gearing' where haste will show a diminished value.

Simulationcraft suggested a drop from 1.72 to 0.60 in EP on haste once you pass 1270 haste in a best in slot ToGC set. I liked the orc racial over the troll one before we started approaching the haste softcap as the time when damage matters most is when you would logically choose to bloodlust, so the marginal difference wasn't outweighed by the rigidity of it's use. I don't think there's any reasonable argument that the berserking is superior to bloodfury in Icecrown, after it becomes a third as effective.

Binkenstein · 11/08/09, 4:40 PM

Originally Posted by Souai

I don't think this is correct. Simulationcraft shows a clear and sharp drop in haste EP once you pass the ~1270 mark, which given our 220 haste totem in Icecrown gives a paperdoll of 1050. I'm at 976 with half bis ToGC gear; I can't imagine there being 'no foreseeable point in gearing' where haste will show a diminished value.

Simulationcraft suggested a drop from 1.72 to 0.60 in EP on haste once you pass 1270 haste in a best in slot ToGC set. I liked the orc racial over the troll one before we started approaching the haste softcap as the time when damage matters most is when you would logically choose to bloodlust, so the marginal difference wasn't outweighed by the rigidity of it's use. I don't think there's any reasonable argument that the berserking is superior to bloodfury in Icecrown, after it becomes a third as effective.

Can you provide details of where you get these values from?

dedmonwakeen · 11/08/09, 5:12 PM

I started from T9 BiS and added a +300 Haste Rating bonus to get the gear haste rating to 1236. I then set dps_plot_stat=haste to get the above picture which implies constant haste scaling from 1236 (center mark) through 1436.

I am not 100% confident of SimC lag modeling when cast times get close to 1sec. Still waiting for some Moonkins to do some NG-Wrath testing to see what happens to the spell-queue. As the code stands right now, Haste only drops off when Cast_Time + Queue_Lag drops below 1sec which pushes up the ceiling a bit.

However.... In the absence of sufficient data, I view with some measure of distrust any SimC results that would be heavily affected by the sub-1sec lag mechanics.

#!./simc 

shaman=Shaman_t9_57_14_00_258
origin=http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=14636542
level=80
race=tauren
talents=http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=7&tal=5530001503213351322300351005050031
glyphs=flame_shock/lava/lightning_bolt
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm
actions+=/food,type=fish_feast
actions+=/flametongue_weapon,weapon=main
actions+=/water_shield
actions+=/mana_spring_totem
actions+=/wrath_of_air_totem
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/bloodlust,time_to_die<=59
actions+=/speed_potion
actions+=/elemental_mastery
actions+=/flame_shock
actions+=/lava_burst,flame_shock=1
actions+=/searing_totem
actions+=/chain_lightning
actions+=/lightning_bolt
actions+=/thunderstorm
head=thralls_helm_of_triumph,stats=1176armor_92crit_96haste_151sp_116sta_116int,gems=chaotic_skyflare_10haste_12sp_9sp,enchant=30sp_20crit
neck=cry_of_the_valkyr,stats=57crit_43haste_91sp_65sta_65int,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp
shoulders=thralls_shoulderpads_of_triumph,stats=1086armor_68crit_76haste_124sp_86sta_86int,gems=23sp,enchant=24sp_15crit
chest=thralls_hauberk_of_triumph,stats=1448armor_94hit_94haste_160sp_116sta_116int,gems=23sp_12sp_15sta_7sp,enchant=10str_10agi_10sta_10int_10spi
waist=belt_of_biting_cold,stats=195armor_58hit_73crit_114sp_86sta_86int,gems=12sp_15sta_23sp_23sp_7sp
legs=leggings_of_the_awakening,stats=570armor_86crit_94haste_151sp_116sta_116int,gems=23sp_23sp_23sp,enchant=50sp_30sta
feet=boots_of_tremoring_earth,stats=995armor_60crit_76haste_114sp_86sta_86int,gems=23sp_23sp,enchant=12crit_12hit
wrists=bejeweled_wizards_bracers,stats=145armor_42crit_50haste_80sp_58sta_58int,gems=23sp,enchant=30sp
hands=thralls_gloves_of_triumph,stats=905armor_76hit_68haste_124sp_86sta_86int,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp,enchant=20sp
finger1=nebula_band,stats=46crit_36haste_74sp_48sta_36int,gems=10haste_12sp_4crit,enchant=23sp
finger2=circle_of_the_darkmender,stats=49haste_28mp5_91sp_65sta_65int,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp,enchant=23sp
trinket1=reign_of_the_dead,stats=168sp,equip=onspelldirectcrit_2117fire_3stack_2.0cd
trinket2=reign_of_the_dead,stats=150sp,equip=onspelldirectcrit_1882fire_3stack_2.0cd
back=aethas_intensity,stats=182armor_65crit_57haste_105sp_74sta_74int,gems=23sp_5sp,enchant=23haste
main_hand=barb_of_tarasque,stats=51hit_57haste_692sp_48sta_65int,gems=23sp,enchant=63sp,weapon=dagger_1.80speed_108.12min_342.12max
off_hand=bastion_of_resolve,stats=8695armor_243blockv_57crit_57haste_100sp_65sta_65int,gems=10haste_12sp_5sp,enchant=25int
ranged=totem_of_electrifying_wind
# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=10
# gear_agility=10
# gear_stamina=1185	
# gear_intellect=1155
# gear_spirit=10
# gear_spell_power=3172
# gear_mp5=28
# gear_hit_rating=291
# gear_crit_rating=718
# gear_haste_rating=936
# gear_armor=15397
# gear_block_value=243
# meta_gem=chaotic_skyflare
# tier9_2pc_caster=1
# tier9_4pc_caster=1
# main_hand=barb_of_tarasque,weapon=dagger_1.80speed_108.12min_342.12max
enchant_haste_rating=300

Souai · 11/08/09, 5:17 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Can you provide details of where you get these values from?

The things I posted in #111. Basically the former value is from running the ToGC258 profile with scales set to 50, and the latter is from editing in 200 more haste rating to the gear to push it past the soft haste cap.

The base profile is Profiler - Wowhead. It has 923 paperdoll haste and the 200 haste totem.

To see what happens past 1270 haste, I edited the character file and basically put 200 extra haste on one of his items to push his haste stat to 1323 with totem up, or 53ish over the softcap. The output files show the only base stat change is haste.

Before:Shaman_T9_57_14_00_258_ToW Int=0.40 SP=1.65 Hit=0.19 Crit=1.23 Haste=1.74 Lag=0.00
After: Shaman_T9_57_14_00_258_ToW Int=0.39 SP=1.78 Hit=0.27 Crit=1.32 Haste=0.62 Lag=0.00

It suggests that haste becomes about a third as effective once you start moving over the softcap.

Edit: Ah, my second run must have caught the tail end of that graph you posted. I ran a few more at higher haste values and the EP normalizes. What a strange valley around 1100 haste. 100 haste is a long time for 1/3th result. This strong valley seems to be effecting the current sampleoutput for our class, for example. Giving our haste weight as 0.9 instead of the expected 1.6

Are the sharp edges a result of limited data points? I need to look into those options.

dedmonwakeen · 11/08/09, 6:40 PM

SimC needs a "wait" action. ( Well, it has a wait action right now. It needs a wait action that really works.)

The wait action itself is trivial. What is not so trivial is making all the possible conditionals available: cooldowns, etc. I'm in the process of making a bunch of SimC data fields "named" so that they can be accessed.

When this is complete I expect that the Haste curves will smooth out considerably due to finally modeling the concept of waiting for actions about to come off cooldown.

Binkenstein · 11/08/09, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

SimC needs a "wait" action. ( Well, it has a wait action right now. It needs a wait action that really works.)

The wait action itself is trivial. What is not so trivial is making all the possible conditionals available: cooldowns, etc. I'm in the process of making a bunch of SimC data fields "named" so that they can be accessed.

When this is complete I expect that the Haste curves will smooth out considerably due to finally modeling the concept of waiting for actions about to come off cooldown.

This is why we're seeing those figures from SimC. If you take those "flat Periods" and adjust the LB counts so that the extra one comes in a little bit later, you'll see that the line is smoother. If you extend that graph out, you'll see similar points in the 500 rating range too.

Broxalar · 11/11/09, 9:31 PM

Looks like we finally have decent Emblem items to pick up off vendors. Or at least so it seems at a first glance.

tufy · 11/12/09, 3:44 AM

Originally Posted by Broxalar

Looks like we finally have decent Emblem items to pick up off vendors. Or at least so it seems at a first glance.

It depends on how the raid gear will be itemized, but I can see a few goodies. Belt and Feet are definitely decent, while the most promissing known raid loot seem to be shoulders or cloth legs. It depends a lot on how T10 will be itemized, though, so I'm withholding my final judgement until we know all items.

Conq[SUN] · 11/12/09, 6:19 AM

4 new caster weapons from the new 5 man heroic. As I understand it the Quel'Dalar questline is 5-man, so including the weapons from there.
Anyways out of the 4 the 2 of them are greatly itemized for elemental shaman. Unfortunatly they are both swords.
The remaining dagger and mace are both with crit and mp5.

Hopefully they will think this over before they release 3.3.

cyloria · 11/12/09, 8:48 PM

please feel free to tell me to go somewhere else for this question.I just couldn't figure out where i might ask it.

I was wondering your opinion on this.
Since i allways use fire dps totems and they are effected by crit not haste and i just recieved the [Reign of the Unliving]. . I also have the [Belt of the Ice Burrower] Since my hit is out of control..i was debating replacing my [Icehowl Cinch] for it..My gut says its a good trade and so does rawr...but my head says allways go haste.

Boondok · 11/12/09, 9:06 PM

Icehowl Cinch is more or less BiS despite it being 245, so I would go with that. For controlling your hit, I'd recommend picking up a nebula band instead of your firestorm ring, and using the Insanity(10man) cape. I also recommend that you pick up the [Leggings of the Awakening] and use the tier chest as hit/haste>hit/crit. My two cents anyways, I'm sure you're trying to find the elusive lewt -.-

Shadovv · 11/12/09, 10:16 PM

As far as belts go, if you are not after hit I believe [Cord of Pale Thorns] is BIS.

By upgrading to that over your [Icehowl Cinch] you will find yourself with:

-61hit
-13haste
+22SP

oldmandennis · 11/13/09, 4:42 AM

Originally Posted by Shadovv

As far as belts go, if you are not after hit I believe [Cord of Pale Thorns] is BIS.

By upgrading to that over your [Icehowl Cinch] you will find yourself with:

-61hit
-13haste
+22SP

Wouldn't Biting Cold be BIS and drop the hit somewhere else?

orion121 · 11/13/09, 5:18 AM

Originally Posted by oldmandennis

Wouldn't Biting Cold be BIS and drop the hit somewhere else?

The haste/SP of Icehowl Cinch is enough on the 232 version to beat out the 258 Biting Cold (because crit sucks), the 245 Icehowl Cinch being better then any other belt posted in this thread IMO (extra hit > spirit). At the moment I find myself almost 20 points over hit cap just because there isn't enough haste/crit gear period.

tufy · 11/13/09, 8:39 AM

Originally Posted by oldmandennis

Wouldn't Biting Cold be BIS and drop the hit somewhere else?

In theory, Bitting Cold would be superior to Icehowl Cinch IF you had two Reigns of the Unliving and IF you could get hit somewhere else. However, when considering the whole, Icehowl is BiS, simply because trading off hit on another item for crit on belt isn't worth it.

That said, this discussion is offtopic - please move it to Elemental gear discussion and let this thread continue on topic of 3.3 changes.

greenstriker · 11/13/09, 3:27 PM

I've been doing some math on the t10 4 piece and I'm really not sure it's worth going for the bonus right away unless the stats on the tier pieces are vastly better than t9 heroic pieces.

Zamir · 11/13/09, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by greenstriker

I've been doing some math on the t10 4 piece and I'm really not sure it's worth going for the bonus right away unless the stats on the tier pieces are vastly better than t9 heroic pieces.

Yeah, the set bonuses are very lacklustre compared to tiers 8 and 9. If they remain as they are on the PTRs then we'll need to gain ~200 DPS worth of stats for 4t10 to be an upgrade from 4t9. Anyone who's managed to collect ilevel 258 tier 9 will probably be wearing it for quite a while yet.

Shunda · 11/13/09, 6:00 PM

I was looking over everything, and couldn't seem to find any math out yet for the new 4 piece bonus to T9. Last I checked they changed the 20% inc dmg to a dot on LvB hit. Has any one looked over the data for this or tested it on the ptr to see how good it is or if it is lackluster and we should be getting replacement gear for the 2 pieces that grant us 4 piece?

♦ masanbol · 11/13/09, 6:09 PM

Originally Posted by Shunda

I was looking over everything, and couldn't seem to find any math out yet for the new 4 piece bonus to T9. Last I checked they changed the 20% inc dmg to a dot on LvB hit. Has any one looked over the data for this or tested it on the ptr to see how good it is or if it is lackluster and we should be getting replacement gear for the 2 pieces that grant us 4 piece?

Why would you need math for this? The amount of bonus damage has not changed (it's still +20%), the only thing that has changed is when it is applied. The only circumstance where this could be a nerf to damage is if a mob dies while the 6-second DoT is ticking, and that's hardly a concern.

Polyx · 11/16/09, 1:43 PM

Where does the new fire nova ability fall in priority?
currently using the typical priority system of:
FS >> LvB >> CL >> LB

assuming a single target fight

also I've seen some mention of using the Fire Nova totem.
Replacing one of the three Lava, LB, FS glyph result in a dps loss?

Broxalar · 11/16/09, 2:00 PM

Fire nova would most likely only be used if we need to move and are out of range for Frost shock and such.