EnhSim updated thread - Page 20

Eralun · 01/26/10, 10:00 AM

Release v1.9.6.5 Beta
Fixed startup crash

Levva · 01/26/10, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by aikouka

I originally sent the information to Levva, and he asked that I post it here to possibly spark some discussion on Haste EP modeling in EnhSim.

Thanks for posting this here Aikouka very interesting graphs. The clearest things that can be drawn from this is that haste provides a dps increase the more you add however the amount of the increase is not constant but instead goes up in small stepped increments.

The EP graph also goes a long way to explaining why EP values are so very very volatile for haste, and why we should once and for all stop advising people to gem haste if the haste EP is > 2.0. As clearly that is utterly meaningless. It is crystal clear from the graph that someone who sims haste as 1.6 EP could add 1 or 2 haste rating and suddenly get a haste EP of 2.6. So using EP as a measure of haste's value is utterly pointless.

Since the figures do help some people despite how pointless they can be proven to be I'd suggest we modify the sim for haste to average out the EP calcs. ie: for haste EP do say 3 calculations 50% of haste step, 100% of haste step and 150% of haste step and average the 3 out. So in the default config where haste step is 40 do 3 calcs for 20 haste, 40 haste & 60 haste add them all up and average them out so you get an averaged EP value that should hopefully smooth out the spikyness of the graph and give a figure that can at least be used somewhat more reliably.

Razanar · 01/26/10, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

Thanks for posting this here Aikouka very interesting graphs. The clearest things that can be drawn from this is that haste provides a dps increase the more you add however the amount of the increase is not constant but instead goes up in small stepped increments.

The EP graph also goes a long way to explaining why EP values are so very very volatile for haste, and why we should once and for all stop advising people to gem haste if the haste EP is > 2.0. As clearly that is utterly meaningless. It is crystal clear from the graph that someone who sims haste as 1.6 EP could add 1 or 2 haste rating and suddenly get a haste EP of 2.6. So using EP as a measure of haste's value is utterly pointless.

Since the figures do help some people despite how pointless they can be proven to be I'd suggest we modify the sim for haste to average out the EP calcs. ie: for haste EP do say 3 calculations 50% of haste step, 100% of haste step and 150% of haste step and average the 3 out. So in the default config where haste step is 40 do 3 calcs for 20 haste, 40 haste & 60 haste add them all up and average them out so you get an averaged EP value that should hopefully smooth out the spikyness of the graph and give a figure that can at least be used somewhat more reliably.

I'd say use 4 calculations, not 3. The way it steps, if you're currently sitting at the top of a step, 3 calculations would give you 2 "flat step" valleys and 1 peak. If sitting on a valley though, it would give 2 peaks and one valley.

Murmor · 01/27/10, 5:15 AM

How sure are we that the stepping is observed in game, and not just an artefact of the sim? The explanation I've seen for haste being spiky is that at certain levels you'll be able to fit an extra spell in due to reduced gcd. I don't think that would happen on such a regular basis as the graph is showing.

The shape of the graph suggests a float to int conversion somewhere in the calculation (this may be reflected in game). Does anyone have a different idea as to what might be causing it?

Cochice · 01/27/10, 6:36 AM

I feel like we had this haste ep stepping conversation in depth a few months ago, and that was one of the main reasons that Levva implemented the graphing function into rawr? Haste has been a volatile state pretty much since the beginning of Ulduar and it's been reconfirmed quite a bit that you just shouldn't use straight ep values with haste (instead sim the gearset and use the graph in rawr).

Cobs · 01/27/10, 1:12 PM

Very interesting stuff there Aikouka. Would it be possible to convert the hast % in graph 3 into haste rating? The reason I ask is seeing as the steps happen every ~1% and it takes 25.2 rating to gain a percentage it would be possible to say toss a haste gem in a socket and stay in the same step getting less value for that socket then a straight AP gem.

Of course this is a minor thing and I can't think of any implications beyond the possibility of affecting our last gem slot. For the most part more haste is more better as graph 2 is linear overall but in my mind you would net the best DPS increase from haste if you happened to have 1 rating more than the last spike in graph 3.

The question is does the phase of these steps remain constant or do they vary with weapon speed and buffs present (probable) or AP, crit etc (not as probable). Are there more tests we can perform to figure this out?

Eralun · 01/27/10, 2:12 PM

Release v1.9.6.6
Added LS_0 and MT_0 priority queue options
Priority list no longer gets cleared when importing settings from Rawr or ShockAndAwe
"no time in range specified" warning for aoe priority queue now gets cleared properly

Previous beta notes
Additional priority list for AoE fights is now implemented in the GUI
Added Muradin's Spyglass Trinket
Implemented minimum white crit in response to new in-game data
Fixed Bizuri's Totem of Shattered Ice
GUI slightly modified

Shammiewow · 01/27/10, 3:14 PM

Originally Posted by Eralun

Release v1.9.6.6
Added LS_0 and MT_0 priority queue options
Priority list no longer gets cleared when importing settings from Rawr or ShockAndAwe
"no time in range specified" warning for aoe priority queue now gets cleared properly

Previous beta notes
Additional priority list for AoE fights is now implemented in the GUI
Added Muradin's Spyglass Trinket
Implemented minimum white crit in response to new in-game data
Fixed Bizuri's Totem of Shattered Ice
GUI slightly modified

Very nice work on the GUI, guys. One slight complaint: I use Enhsim on a Tablet PC with a portrait mode screen: 800 x 1280. The old GUI displayed a scroll bar so that I could access the whole Enhsim screen. The new GUI just truncates at the screen border.

I recognize that this is not a mainstream concern, but if you could fix it in a future release, that would be very nice.

Thorrgal · 01/28/10, 12:44 PM

I am getting really low EP values for anything except AP. I find hard to believe this results or the conclusion that would be to gem AP on everything, so please help me find were the glitch is:

Config:

config_version                  1.9.6.6
simulation_time                 5000
simulation_time_combatlog       300
combat_length                   7.00
report_count                    80
threads                         1
combat_length_rng_factor        0.35
min_lag                         230
max_lag                         260
simulate_mana                   1
cast_sr_on_cooldown             1

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           200
ep_crit_rating                  30
ep_hit_rating                   30
ep_expertise                    4
ep_haste_rating                 30
ep_armor_penetration_rating     30
ep_spellpower                   150
ep_dps                          7.5
ep_mana                         250
ep_spirit                       150
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0.00
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        1
bloodlust_casters               1
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    1
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15.0
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    1
cast_magma_only_if_ticks_left   1
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       5000
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000
necrotic_touch                  0
necrotic_touch_heroic           1

rotation_priority_count         12
rotation_priority1              SW
rotation_priority2              SR
rotation_priority3              SS_0
rotation_priority4              MW5_LB
rotation_priority5              FS
rotation_priority6              ES
rotation_priority7              SS
rotation_priority8              FE
rotation_priority9              MT
rotation_priority10             LS
rotation_priority11             LL
rotation_priority12             FN

aoe_rotation_priority_count     0

fight_name                      
miss                            8.0
dodge                           6.5
glancing                        24.0
armor                           10643
spell_miss                      17.0
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

additional_targets              0
additional_target_percent       0.0
additional_target_level         0

armor_debuff_major              20.0/20.0
armor_debuff_minor              5.0/5.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff   4.0/4.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          687/687
attack_power_buff_multiplier    99.7/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        5.0/5.0
spell_damage_debuff             13.0/13.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   51/51
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               0
blessing_of_wisdom              1
judgement_of_wisdom             1
mixology                        0

flask_elixir                    flask_of_endless_rage
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          potion_of_speed
food                            fish_feast

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            tauren
mh_speed                        2.6
oh_speed                        2.6
mh_dps                          250.6
oh_dps                          250.6
mh_crit                         49.30
oh_crit                         49.30
mh_hit                          17.23
oh_hit                          17.23
mh_expertise_rating             140
oh_expertise_rating             140
ap                              5348
melee_haste                     31.52
armor_penetration               13.22
str                             145
agi                             1738
int                             799
spi                             165
spellpower                      1604
spell_crit                      32.52
spell_hit                       21.54
spell_haste                     24.25
max_mana                        16101
mp5                             0

mh_imbue                        windfury
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      berserking
oh_enchant                      berserking

mh_weapon                       black_bruise_heroic
oh_weapon                       fist

trinket1                        herkuml_war_token
trinket2                        tiny_abomination_in_a_jar_heroic

totem                           bizuris_totem_of_shattered_ice

set_bonus1                      t10_battlegear_4
set_bonus2                      -
set_bonus3                      -

metagem                         relentless_earthsiege_diamond

gloves_enchant                  -
cloak_enchant                   -
ring_proc                       ashen_verdict

glyph_major1                    feral_spirit
glyph_major2                    stormstrike
glyph_major3                    windfury_weapon

glyph_minor1                    -
glyph_minor2                    -
glyph_minor3                    -

ancestral_knowledge             2/5
improved_shields                3/3
mental_dexterity                3/3
shamanistic_focus               0/1
flurry                          5/5
elemental_weapons               3/3
unleashed_rage                  3/3
weapon_mastery                  3/3
dual_wield_specialization       3/3
mental_quickness                3/3
improved_stormstrike            0/2
static_shock                    3/3
maelstrom_weapon                5/5

convection                      0/5
concussion                      5/5
call_of_flame                   3/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
reverberation                   1/5
elemental_focus                 0/1
elemental_fury                  5/5
improved_fire_nova              2/2
call_of_thunder                 0/1
unrelenting_storm               0/3
elemental_precision             0/3
lightning_mastery               0/5
elemental_oath                  0/2
lightning_overload              0/5
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
shamanism                       0/5

EP:

EnhSim version 1.9.6.6

Spell hit + EP range goes past cap by 4.90364% (128.632 hit rating).
Mh expertise + EP range goes past cap by 3.9564 expertise (32.4325 expertise rating).
Oh expertise + EP range goes past cap by 3.9564 expertise (32.4325 expertise rating).

Calculating EP values...
Calculation 1/14: Baseline DPS calculated.
Calculation 2/14: Attack power calculated.
Calculation 3/14: Crit(physical) calculated.
Calculation 4/14: Crit(spell) calculated.
Calculation 5/14: Hit calculated.
Calculation 6/14: Expertise calculated.
Calculation 7/14: Haste calculated.
Calculation 8/14: Armor Penetration calculated.
Calculation 9/14: Spellpower calculated.
Calculation 10/14: Mh Dps calculated.
Calculation 11/14: Oh Dps calculated.
Calculation 12/14: Mana calculated.
Calculation 13/14: Spirit calculated.
Calculation 14/14: Mp5 calculated.


EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      9317.46
ap                        1.00      0.74      9464.61        147.15
crit rating               1.13      0.83      9342.50        25.04
hit rating                1.47      1.08      9349.81        32.35
expertise rating          -0.17     -0.13     9313.33        -4.12
haste rating              1.45      1.06      9349.39        31.94
armor penetration rating  1.40      1.03      9348.30        30.84
spellpower                0.97      0.71      9424.64        107.19
mh dps                    4.66      3.43      9343.18        25.72
oh dps                    1.49      1.10      9325.68        8.22
strength                  1.10      
agility                   1.54      
intelligence              0.61      
spirit                    -0.05     -0.04     9311.79        -5.66
mana                      -0.04     -0.03     9310.31        -7.15
mp5                       -0.36     -0.27     9312.09        -5.37

( Pawn: v1: "EnhSim": Ap=1.00, CritRating=1.13, HitRating=1.47, HasteRating=1.45, ExpertiseRating=-0.17, ArmorPenetration=1.40, SpellDamage=0.97, MainHandDps=4.66, OffHandDps=1.49, Strength=1.10, Agility=1.54, Intellect=0.61, Spirit=-0.05, Mana=-0.04, Mp5=-0.36 )
http://www.lootrank.com/wow/wr.asp?Cla=64&Str=1.10&mh=1.45&dps=4.66&mp5=-0.36&mcr=1.13&odps=1.49&spd=0.97&Agi=1.54&mhit=1.47&Int=0.61&Spi=-0.05&map=1.00&arp=1.40&Exp=-0.17

elapsed simulation time: 70000.00h
elapsed real time: 430.38s
simulation speed: 585535x

I had a long break from wow over x-mas and I just recently became aware of the issues with the crit cap, so I'm in the middle of upgrading my gear towards that, emblems included, and thats why there's a couple of gems in my gear to be soon replaced, gold depending. I don't think thats the issue, though

Levva · 01/28/10, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Thorrgal

I am getting really low EP values for anything except AP. I find hard to believe this results or the conclusion that would be to gem AP on everything, so please help me find were the glitch is:

NO NO NO NO NO. A Thousand times NO. Having one stat with a higher EP values DOES NOT MEAN you "gem XX on everything" where XX is the stat in question. This has NEVER EVER been the case and STILL is not the case now.

A stat having a higher EP value than other stats simply means that from the current position you are in you get most ADDITIONAL value by adding the highest stat. It tells you NOTHING about removing existing gems and replacing them with another type. So it would be foolish and UTTERLY WRONG to imagine that the sim was suggesting removing existing gems and replacing them with something else. WILL PEOPLE STOP MISUSING EP VALUES LIKE THIS. PLEASE.

That said you some very odd EP step values in your config.txt file it looks like a v1.7.0 file doctored to try to work with v1.9.6.x code. The EP steps haven't been like that for months, although they aren't actually wrong per-se just an unusual mix which will potentially screw your EP calcs. Currently accepted practice is to get the EP step set to the value of two gems. Also if you are saying this is for your current gear why are you telling the sim you have got a Black Bruise Heroic - that's not currently possible. No-one can check your armory as you used an invalid profile so I can't confirm if this is what you are trying to do or not, and I note that at the time of my replying you've already been given a warning about that.

I also note you have set an AP buff are you aware that this is used only if you have another raider providing that buff not yourself. Just odd to see it used. So a few odd things but nothing too shocking. Just a completely lack of understanding of what an EP value is and what the results actually suggest you do.

Rouncer · 01/28/10, 5:01 PM

Looks like he is running the BiS config in an attempt to define EP values for how to gear from where he is now considering he also lists 4T10 and ilevel 277 weapons in that config.

EP ratings have value when you apply them to your personal gear and use them properly. If you are trying to figure out how to gem a new piece of gear, then running your EP ratings has merit. Trying to get an idea of the relative value of a single tier (or less) difference upgrades, that has merit. Beyond that, unless you really understand how they work, relying on them will most likely end up hurting your performance.

Stick to these simple principles for gear/gem/enchanting.

1. Hit Rating till you are above the spell hit cap including all raid buffs/debuffs
2. Expertise till you are within 4 expertise rating or less of the dodge cap for your MAINHAND.
3. Hit Rating till you are under the Melee Crit Cap on white attacks including Elemental Devastation and all raid buffs/debuffs. 100 - 24 - miss rate = Melee Crit Cap if your melee crit is higher then that value then you need to reduce miss through hit rating until you are under that point.

4. Add haste or AP at this point through looking at your EP values on a gem by gem basis or just simplify things and stick Stark Gems (20 AP/10 Haste) everywhere except for the blue socket(s) necessary to activate your meta. Use tear(s) in those sockets.

Haste being king depends a lot on which set bonuses you have active so either put in the work or stick to the Stark gems, either way the difference is relatively minor and playing better will matter a lot more then if you have a Quick gem in a slot of a Stark one or a Bright one.

Thorrgal · 01/28/10, 6:11 PM

Originally Posted by Rouncer

Looks like he is running the BiS config in an attempt to define EP values for how to gear from where he is now considering he also lists 4T10 and ilevel 277 weapons in that config.

EP ratings have value when you apply them to your personal gear and use them properly. If you are trying to figure out how to gem a new piece of gear, then running your EP ratings has merit. Trying to get an idea of the relative value of a single tier (or less) difference upgrades, that has merit. Beyond that, unless you really understand how they work, relying on them will most likely end up hurting your performance.

Stick to these simple principles for gear/gem/enchanting.

1. Hit Rating till you are above the spell hit cap including all raid buffs/debuffs
2. Expertise till you are within 4 expertise rating or less of the dodge cap for your MAINHAND.
3. Hit Rating till you are under the Melee Crit Cap on white attacks including Elemental Devastation and all raid buffs/debuffs. 100 - 24 - miss rate = Melee Crit Cap if your melee crit is higher then that value then you need to reduce miss through hit rating until you are under that point.

4. Add haste or AP at this point through looking at your EP values on a gem by gem basis or just simplify things and stick Stark Gems (20 AP/10 Haste) everywhere except for the blue socket(s) necessary to activate your meta. Use tear(s) in those sockets.

Haste being king depends a lot on which set bonuses you have active so either put in the work or stick to the Stark gems, either way the difference is relatively minor and playing better will matter a lot more then if you have a Quick gem in a slot of a Stark one or a Bright one.

1- About the Profile, really sorry but we just migrated last week from Frostmane to Bladefist and forgot to update that, so the link was to a nameholder DK I created in Frostmane. Now should be fixed

2-About the config, I first used the one I was getting from the enhsimui, but seeing that I got those really weird results I used the one from the BiS and added my stats at the end, just in case I had something wrong configured. The EP values I got however were roughly the same. Unfortunately I was on a hurry (getting late for the raid) when I posted the results and I linked the changed config.txt. Sorry I can't post the original config.txt with his EP values now becasue I use the computer at work to run the sims, but I can post it tomorrow if needed. As I say however the results were very similar .

3-I'm above the hit cap, 139 expertise, hit rating I believe is under the Melee Crit Cap (after switching the Deatch Choice back to the Mark of Supremacy) and I regemmed all my AP/crit gems just 2 days ago to Stark(after finding out about the crit cap) except on my belt, which I'm about to replace for the emblems one. I even changed my Gutbuster for the Hellscream Slicer now in order to lose Crit and win Haste (hoping to get another MH/OH this week)

4-It was in order to gem this new belt, that has 2 yellow gems and the extra socket that I wanted to find out my EP values, actually wondering if I neede more Hit, or Haste was the way to go...thats why finding out that I should stick 3 AP was so surprising to me.

Should I ignore those values and just stick Stark everywere to be safe, collecting the gear equivalent to the BiS one (normal ICC atm)? Well not much I can do anyway othen than that but I just was curious for those strange EP results

(I know I have 3 blue gems when I only need 1, but just swapped the metagem from crit to agi to help with the Crit cap, and also got the new boots yesterday replacing the acidmaw expertise ones,so needed a fast solution to keep on with the raid,wich I got from the Guardians Dreadstone.I'll replace the 2 blues as soon as I figure out what gems to go for)

Edit: Spelling

Erysha · 01/28/10, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by Rouncer

Stick to these simple principles for gear/gem/enchanting.

1. Hit Rating till you are above the spell hit cap including all raid buffs/debuffs
2. Expertise till you are within 4 expertise rating or less of the dodge cap for your MAINHAND.
3. Hit Rating till you are under the Melee Crit Cap on white attacks including Elemental Devastation and all raid buffs/debuffs. 100 - 24 - miss rate = Melee Crit Cap if your melee crit is higher then that value then you need to reduce miss through hit rating until you are under that point.

4. Add haste or AP at this point through looking at your EP values on a gem by gem basis or just simplify things and stick Stark Gems (20 AP/10 Haste) everywhere except for the blue socket(s) necessary to activate your meta. Use tear(s) in those sockets.

Rouncer, is there any specific reason why you listed 4 expertise rating for #2? I've often been anywhere from 5-9 rating under cap, and the sim always showed a DPS decrease by substituting an Accurate Ametrine for another gem. Is there something I'm missing?

Rouncer · 01/28/10, 7:29 PM

Originally Posted by Erysha

Rouncer, is there any specific reason why you listed 4 expertise rating for #2? I've often been anywhere from 5-9 rating under cap, and the sim always showed a DPS decrease by substituting an Accurate Ametrine for another gem. Is there something I'm missing?

Not really, it was more of a general rule of thumb then anything else. I should have simmed out the various expertise values to confirm but I know for a fact that the values I used work as a guideline.

Basically I should have said that the following was a general guideline, as always sim out your personal stats to confirm everything.

Schwolop · 01/28/10, 10:48 PM

I think the "4" comes from the fact that there's gems with +10 or +20 exp, and there's a glove enchant with +15 exp, and non-orcs need 140 expertise total. If you note that all of those numbers are multiples of 5, it's clear that you can always shuffle gems/enchants around to get within 4 points of the required cap. I'm fairly sure that at most high end gear levels being <=4 points under the cap is less bad than wasting the equivalent stats from being 1 point over the cap, hence the "within 4".