Nope, Rawr doesn't take elemental devastation into account on the stats panel. Just raid buffs and debuffs and Thundering Strikes and trinket procs (which I was surprised to see actually).

Seems to just be Elemental Devastation that is missed though.

Interesting, it shows me as being over the crit cap yet when I run myself through EnhSim that is not the case. It's also not the case when I look at a combat parse. Latest Saurfang had me at 6.6% hits which shouldn't be possible if I was capped.

Even if the cap was only occurring when I had Elemental Devastation active, it still doesn't fit since I had 83.9% uptime.

I'm thinking that the discrepancy is in how we are thinking about it. Like Valdred said, it is a conversion, not a cap or a reduction. So the cap is still the same point it always was, just now even when it looks like we should be capped there will still be 4.8% of the attacks showing up as hits.

So the cap is; 100% - 24% (Glancing) - miss rate - dodge rate - parry rate = Crit Cap. Just that when you are at that cap you will still see 4.8% of your attacks show up as hits anyway.


By the way, thanks Jorev for my current headache. I'm sending you a bill for the ibuprofen.

I guess it depends on what you're worried about for crit cap.

I guess my personal concern is not wasting stat points on crit that could be better spend towards something else. So the crit depression still matters, since it's converting crit into hits. The cap (albeit a soft cap) still has to consider the crit depression, because you're not getting any value out of crit beyond that point (this of course is only in reference to white hits, crit still has value for other damage sources).

All it means is that as you get to the true crit cap (76% - miss %) you will want to start gemming/gearing with enough hit that you can stay under that cap, including Elemental Devastation. You also will need to keep it in mind when evaluating proc items as they may have a significant portion of their value sucked away from them by that cap.

You will get hits at the true cap but each point of crit, up to that point, will still have roughly as much value as all the ones before it.

This is exactly how I understand it as well. Landsoul from Vodka does a great job in summing it up in this post.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Testing Reveals New Melee Hit Table Behavior

Ok I will use some round numbers here. Lets assume a Horde shaman with 368 hit for 13% hit and expertise capped.

That is 100% - 24% Glancing - 14% misses = 62% crit cap.

Now, let's say through static buffs (assume either no ED or 100% uptime ED to get to there) and gear you have exactly 62% crit. You would see 24% glancing blows, 14% misses, 57.2% crits and 4.8% hits.

Now let's say you have exactly 57.2% crit rating. Will you see either

A) 24% glancing, 14% misses, 57.2% crits, 4.8% hits

or

B) 24% glancing, 14% misses, 52.4% crits, 9.6% hits.

A conversion theory supports option B), while a "guaranteed 4.8% hit" theory supports A). I'm looking towards a B) theory and re reading my post it seems sort of redundant now. But seeing as we always observe a lower crit chance than what our paper dolls state (factoring in HoTC ToW) then the B) case must be true and 76% - miss/dodge/parry is the crit cap and not to worry about the depression.

[e] wow a lot of intervening posts. I'll leave this here incase another viewpoint helps.

I'm thinking a better way to visualize the table would be

Hit Table
Miss	(reduced by hit rating)
Dodge	(zero through Expertise)
Parry	(zero through positioning)
Glancing Blow	(24% always)
Block	(zero through positioning)
Guaranteed 4.8% hit	(due to level difference)
Regular Hit	(can be converted into crit)

As crit really doesn't have a place in the table, it can only affect regular hit and convert it into crits.

Yours means the same thing as mine, just yours requires an * to explain that 4.8% hit can't be removed and mine doesn't. For some reason I think mine matches the way Blizzard coded it better then yours but it's a moot point.

The big thing is that there is no reason to think about the relationship between the crit cap and the crit depression. You get use out of every drop up till your cap, which is dependent on your miss rate.

Basically everything that came out of all that testing is that there is no reason to every have any crit above the cap. Used to be that people thought if they had crit over that point it would eat into the crit depression and eventually allow them to remove hits from the table. That is not the case. Which is why I like my version of the table better since crits can't push anything off the table at all. All they are is converted regular hits. If you have no more regular hits to convert then you can't have any more crits.

One table, no * necessary. Basically the same as my last table but hopefully a bit more understandable.

Hit Table
Miss	(reduced by hit rating)
Dodge	(zero through Expertise)
Parry	(zero through positioning)
Glancing Blow	(24% always - due to level difference)
Block	(zero through positioning)
Crit Depression	(4.8% always - due to level difference)
Regular Hit	(can be critical strikes)

As for your conclusions they seem to be on the money and the macros look great. I'm sure Levva will have Rawr showing the proper crit cap in the next version and EnhSim already appears to be handling it correctly. All the shaman reading this need to know is that simple equation, Crit cap = 100 - (miss rate) - (glancing blows), and that they should gem/gear for enough additional hit so their personal crit cap is always equal or better then their crit rate including all raid buffs, debuffs and the 9% from Elemental Devastation.

I'm not sure exactly what analysis you wanted Levva, but this graph is for my character sheet, swapping out all bright cardinals and stark ametrines for rigid king's ambers in order to reach this amount of hit. I just got the chest and swapped to this helm today, and lost a lot of hit rating and reached the crit soft cap as a result - this discussion is quite timely.

The graph shows that if I drop 70 hit rating I'd be below the spell cap with appropriately steep curve. If I gain another 25ish rating I'd mitigate the crit depression (which Rawr tells me is currently 0.76% over the soft cap) and then the slope is reduced again. Only after another 60ish hit rating do 2AP and haste become the top stats again.



I can edit with the Rawr XML and/or EnhSim config file if you need it.

Ok to make sure I code it right in Rawr lets see from your gear Rouncer...

Hit Table	Value
Miss	7.95	(reduced by hit rating)
Dodge	0.00	(zero through Expertise)
Parry	0.00	(zero through positioning)
Glancing Blow	24.00	(24% always - due to level difference)
Block	0.00	(zero through positioning)
Crit Depression	4.80	(4.8% always - due to level difference)
Regular Hit	3.90	(can be critical strikes)
Crits	59.35	(usable crit from gear)

However should we include :

Hit Table	Value
ED Uptime Av	8.04	(average crit granted by uptime of ED)

This would give a new table of :

Hit Table	Value
Miss	7.95	(reduced by hit rating)
Dodge	0.00	(zero through Expertise)
Parry	0.00	(zero through positioning)
Glancing Blow	24.00	(24% always - due to level difference)
Block	0.00	(zero through positioning)
Crit Depression	4.80	(4.8% always - due to level difference)
Regular Hit	0.00	(can be critical strikes)
ED Uptime Av	8.04	(average crit granted by uptime of ED)
Crits	55.21	(usable crit from gear)
Pushed off table	4.14	(unused crit)

I've fixed the issue in the earlier interim Rawr.Enhance release it was double dipping on the 4.8% crit depression. I've also modified the White hit table to show the effects of over crit cap.

Current version of Rawr (after applying the previous fix) already includes Elemental Devastation.

Rawr Paper Doll - 39.29%
SoE - 41.42%
LotP - 46.42%
Heart of the Crusader - 49.42%
Kings - 51.31%
Ele D - 58.45%

Only thing that is strange is that my Paper Doll on the Armory says 43.48% melee crit, or a difference of 4.19%. Adding that to the Rawr Total puts me at 62.64%

Giving us a table of

Hit Table	Value
Miss	7.95%	(reduced by hit rating)
Dodge	0.00	(zero through Expertise)
Parry	0.00	(zero through positioning)
Glancing Blow	24.00%	(24% always - due to level difference)
Block	0.00	(zero through positioning)
Critical Strikes	62.64%	(4.8% will show as hits)
Regular Hit	5.41%

Regular hit also equals the amount of crit I can add before I reach the cap at that level of miss.


I think Levva's solution is potentially more useful. Have it show us both the hard cap (which should include Elemental Devastation) and a soft cap (trinket procs).


Edit - played with the latest version of Rawr (the update Levva attached) and it is still showing the crit cap as too low. Crit cap really is just 100 - 24% - dodge - miss rate.

Only thing people need to know about the crit depression is that they will still see hits even if they get to the crit cap but they will get full value from all the crit rating up to that point. That's because the crit depression is active the whole way too. So if they were white hit capped and expertise capped and had 70% crit, they would only be seeing 65.2% of their attacks as crits. If they got up to 76% crit, they would see 71.2% of their attacks crit. So that 6% crit from 70% to 76% was effective. If they went up to 77% crit, however, they would still only see 71.2% of their attacks crit meaning that 1% crit from 76% to 77% did nothing.