Elitist Jerks [Enhancement]: Critical cap analysis (Tow/HotC)

01/13/10, 1:31 PM   #31
Levva
In Awe of Shocks

Draenei Shaman

 Originally Posted by Rouncer Edit - played with the latest version of Rawr (the update Levva attached) and it is still showing the crit cap as too low. Crit cap really is just 100 - 24% - dodge - miss rate. Only thing people need to know about the crit depression is that they will still see hits even if they get to the crit cap but they will get full value from all the crit rating up to that point. That's because the crit depression is active the whole way too. So if they were white hit capped and expertise capped and had 70% crit, they would only be seeing 65.2% of their attacks as crits. If they got up to 76% crit, they would see 71.2% of their attacks crit. So that 6% crit from 70% to 76% was effective. If they went up to 77% crit, however, they would still only see 71.2% of their attacks crit meaning that 1% crit from 76% to 77% did nothing.
Not seeing this the code is now

private void SetCritValues(float chanceCrit)
{
// first set max crit chance 76% - miss chance (ie 100% - 24% glancing - miss chance)
// see http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t76785-crit_depression_combat_table/
chanceWhiteCritMH = Math.Min(chanceCrit, 1f - GlancingRate - chanceWhiteMissMH);
chanceWhiteCritOH = Math.Min(chanceCrit, 1f - GlancingRate - chanceWhiteMissOH);
chanceYellowCritMH = Math.Min(chanceCrit, 1f - chanceYellowMissMH);
chanceYellowCritOH = Math.Min(chanceCrit, 1f - chanceYellowMissOH);
if (chanceCrit > 1f - GlancingRate - chanceWhiteMissMH)
overMeleeCritCap = chanceCrit - (1f - GlancingRate - chanceWhiteMissMH);
else
overMeleeCritCap = 0f;
// now apply crit depression
chanceWhiteCritMH = Math.Max(0.01f, chanceWhiteCritMH - whiteCritDepression);
chanceWhiteCritOH = Math.Max(0.01f, chanceWhiteCritOH - whiteCritDepression);
chanceYellowCritMH = Math.Max(0.01f, chanceYellowCritMH - yellowCritDepression);
chanceYellowCritOH = Math.Max(0.01f, chanceYellowCritOH - yellowCritDepression);
}
where chanceWhiteMissMH includes dodge & parry. ie: what it does now is pass in the crit value to apply checks against the cap which is determined as 1 - GlancingRate - WhiteMiss - dodge - parry. Where dodge & parry are typically zero. It then checks if that value was capped and if so sets the overMeleeCritCap variable. Finally it removes the crit depression from the crit value and keeps that at a minimum of 1%.

What is wrong with that?

Edit: I've added a new build r33408 so that you can test with the extra couple of tweaks. You said something about gearing choices showing wrong and something about the crit cap being wrong but not where I should look to find what is wrong, nor any examples I can test. So I struggling to understand you.

Edit 2 : It is perfectly possible to create a new gem - say lets call it Rouncer's insane crit gem - and give it 100 Crit rating. Then we could add that gem into your gear to achieve exactly the caps we want to see. ie: create several gems and setup the gear with them to experiment to see exactly what happens in those test cases at the limits. If it needs a gem with 121 crit on it then create a gem with 121 crit on it.

If we can device a series of such test cases we can verify that Rawr is giving the right result for each test case.
Attached Files
 Rawr.Enhance.33408.zip (1.88 MB, 98 views)

Last edited by Levva : 01/13/10 at 1:42 PM.

Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

 01/13/10, 1:53 PM #32 Nevets_69 Piston Honda     Josua Orc Shaman   Arthas Levva, I'm not sure how much work this would be, but is it possible to display the attack table in Rawr? Possibly on the same tab where we go for the graph of stats? You could have 2 separate columns, one for static buffs and one with all procs so people could see how much of their procs are being wasted (you could have an 3rd column for ED only proc'd if you felt it warranted). I'm not sure how much work this would be, if it's feasible, I'll happily create a ticket on the Rawr codeplex page, just thought I'd get your opinion first. Elemental Shaman: You're OOM. Enhancement Shaman: So are you.
 01/13/10, 1:56 PM #33 Rouncer Deeper Shade of Blue     Rouncer Orc Shaman   Mal'Ganis I think it's working correctly. It's just showing up on the mouseover as over the crit cap too soon. It's showing as "over the crit cap" when you hit the range of the unremovable hit which is going to confuse people as there is no reason to worry about crit until you hit the true crit cap. 100 - Capped Hit/Dodge/Parry | 76 (after glancing) - where it should tell people they have hit the crit cap | 71.2 - where it is telling people they are over the crit cap What would be great if it would say on that mouseover these things, depending on your paper doll. - Over the Hard Crit Cap - if glancing + miss + crit > 100 - Over the Soft Crit Cap - if glancing + miss + crit + (*) > 100 Where * would equal the full value for Elemental Devastation and Trinket Procs and it would break them down by which and how much. So if using Dark Matter and over the crit cap by 0.5% when Elemental Devastation procs (ie 8.5% under the crit cap) it would show this for the mouse over. *Over the Soft Crit Cap Elemental Devastation - 0.5% Dark Matter - 4.83% Elemental Devastation + Dark Matter - 5.33% Last edited by Rouncer : 01/13/10 at 2:12 PM.
01/14/10, 5:07 AM   #34
Levva
In Awe of Shocks

Draenei Shaman

 Originally Posted by Nevets_69 Levva, I'm not sure how much work this would be, but is it possible to display the attack table in Rawr? Possibly on the same tab where we go for the graph of stats? You could have 2 separate columns, one for static buffs and one with all procs so people could see how much of their procs are being wasted (you could have an 3rd column for ED only proc'd if you felt it warranted). I'm not sure how much work this would be, if it's feasible, I'll happily create a ticket on the Rawr codeplex page, just thought I'd get your opinion first.
This already exists after a fashion. Its called Combat Table (White), Combat Table (Yellow) and Combat Table (Spells). Separating out procs & buffs isn't going to happen though. The code just isn't designed that way, or at least it would be a major pain to get it there and we are in feature lockdown for Rawr2.

 Originally Posted by Rouncer I think it's working correctly. It's just showing up on the mouseover as over the crit cap too soon. It's showing as "over the crit cap" when you hit the range of the unremovable hit which is going to confuse people as there is no reason to worry about crit until you hit the true crit cap.
Its currently using if crit > 100 - glancing - miss which is the same as if glancing + miss + crit > 100. ie: no 4.8% in sight. to warn if over cap. This is the only warning it gives. So again I can't see how it can be wrong at present. PLEASE if you have an example give me an XML so I can understand, all I have is words at present and NO info. If I can't replicate your issue I cannot solve it.

Remember that Rawr doesn't have lots of different states it takes ALL your stats, your procs, your buffs, your uptime stats and lumps them all together before working out the dps from that large chunk of stats. To effectively "interrupt" the process early and store values becomes fiddly and has introduced errors in the past. The whole way the display is handled is a mess to be honest. It needs a major re-write for all models so we can separate display values from calculation values.

Last edited by Levva : 01/14/10 at 5:33 AM.

Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

 01/14/10, 6:47 AM #35 Lumb Von Kaiser     Lùmb Orc Shaman   Sunstrider (EU) Levva does the version in your attachment also include the updated [Deathbringer's Will]?
01/14/10, 6:49 AM   #36
Levva
In Awe of Shocks

Draenei Shaman

 Originally Posted by Lumb Levva does the version in your attachment also include the updated [Deathbringer's Will]?
What is updated about it? The one of the procs being Haste rather than ArP? If so yes.

Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

01/14/10, 9:25 AM   #37
Lumb
Von Kaiser

Orc Shaman

Sunstrider (EU)
 Originally Posted by Levva What is updated about it? The one of the procs being Haste rather than ArP? If so yes.
Yeah that's what I meant - great.

01/14/10, 10:21 AM   #38
Rouncer

Orc Shaman

Mal'Ganis
(e - while working through this post and verifying everything I figured out what I was mistaken about but worth reading for the logic train that led to understanding so we can help others when they start with the same mistaken conclusions)

I copied the folder contents over my current Rawr folder and when I swap out my War Token for the Heroic Whispering Fanged Skull it takes my crit up to 63.25% and then it shows (Over Cap) and the mouseover shows "over the soft cap by 0.44%).

Miss Rate is 7.95%
Dodge is 0%

So it should show 100 - 24 - 7.95 = 68.05% as the cap. If the 4.8% was already affecting the cap then it would be 63.25%

If I remove all the points from Elemental Devastation it shows my crit as 55.05% (all raid buffs but nothing proccing crit).

I attached the XML.

I'm also going to attach an XML that shows the base crit value. This is without Ele D and without any raid buffs that affect melee crit so the value should match my paper doll in game.

With that gear my paper doll and my value on the Armory shows as 40.99%. But on Rawr it is showing as 36.19%. Which fits if it is already taking the crit depression into account on the Rawr panel. So Rawr is showing the correct values, it just looks wrong because the 4.8% is affecting the Melee Crit value shown in the panel but it doesn't affect the cap value, ie Rawr is working 100% correctly and I was just missing it because of a lack of understanding about how it derived the values shown in that panel.
Attached Files
 Rouncer over the crit cap - test.xml (16.5 KB, 234 views) Rouncer testing Rawr crit values shown on panel.xml (16.0 KB, 170 views)

Last edited by Rouncer : 01/14/10 at 10:39 AM.

01/14/10, 11:39 AM   #39
Levva
In Awe of Shocks

Draenei Shaman

 Originally Posted by Rouncer (e - while working through this post and verifying everything I figured out what I was mistaken about but worth reading for the logic train that led to understanding so we can help others when they start with the same mistaken conclusions) I copied the folder contents over my current Rawr folder and when I swap out my War Token for the Heroic Whispering Fanged Skull it takes my crit up to 63.25% and then it shows (Over Cap) and the mouseover shows "over the soft cap by 0.44%). Miss Rate is 7.95% Dodge is 0% So it should show 100 - 24 - 7.95 = 68.05% as the cap. If the 4.8% was already affecting the cap then it would be 63.25% If I remove all the points from Elemental Devastation it shows my crit as 55.05% (all raid buffs but nothing proccing crit). I attached the XML. I'm also going to attach an XML that shows the base crit value. This is without Ele D and without any raid buffs that affect melee crit so the value should match my paper doll in game. With that gear my paper doll and my value on the Armory shows as 40.99%. But on Rawr it is showing as 36.19%. Which fits if it is already taking the crit depression into account on the Rawr panel. So Rawr is showing the correct values, it just looks wrong because the 4.8% is affecting the Melee Crit value shown in the panel but it doesn't affect the cap value, ie Rawr is working 100% correctly and I was just missing it because of a lack of understanding about how it derived the values shown in that panel.
Ah ok what I take from that is it would be more useful to have the display value show the crit with the added crit depression value, so it matches the armoury?

Edit: Please find attached an update r30516 that should fix the display issues and make it a bit more intuitive. NB. I've changed the hit and miss graphs (Combat Table (white)) to show green where you could possibly eek out more crit, and the crit bar to show green when over crit cap. Let me know if it looks right or wrong please.
Attached Files
 Rawr.Enhance.zip (1.88 MB, 73 views)

Last edited by Levva : 01/14/10 at 12:01 PM.

Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

01/14/10, 1:15 PM   #40
Rouncer

Orc Shaman

Mal'Ganis
Display now matches ingame/armory paper doll except for what is likely a rounding error, armory has me at 43.48% and Rawr has me at 43.47%.

43.47 + raid buffs/debuffs = 56.11%
56.11% + 9% Ele D = 65.11%
56.11 + estimated uptime for Ele D = 64.15%

My crit cap = 100 - 24 - 7.95 = 68.05%

Mouseover tooltip shows me as over the crit cap by 0.89%. So it is still working off the assumption that the crit depression has affected my crit value in the panel.

I'm really not sure what the best way to handle the information on the panel would be if someone was over the crit cap. Having an averaged value for procs that put someone over the cap really doesn't help because you are still losing all the white crit above the cap from the proc when it is active.

Maybe the best thing would be to just have it say "You are over the crit cap, consider adding more hit rating as that may increase your overall dps". Then let people sort out on their own how much they are over the crit cap by and whether it would be a dps increase to add enough hit to get back under the cap. Feels like a copout but within the constraints of the Rawr system it may be better to just work it that way instead of leading people to the wrong conclusions.

What's nice to see though is that the graph function is working perfectly. It shows a static value curve for hit when I am actually below the crit cap that is just below the values curves of AP or Haste. When I add enough crit rating to actually be over the crit cap it shows a curve with a peak that coincides with enough hit rating to get back under the crit cap and then the curve moves back to it's normal curvature. Take a look at the attached xml file and run the graph with just hit/AP/Haste as my explanation is probably a bit confusing. The curvature on the graph is corresponding to the real crit cap not the one it is showing on the mouseover on the panel and it gives an idea how much hit you need to add before any other stat would be a better choice for gemming.
Attached Files
 Rouncer Crit Capped Graph test.zip (3.0 KB, 88 views)

 01/14/10, 1:34 PM #41 Levva In Awe of Shocks     Levva Draenei Shaman   Khadgar (EU) However isn't what its saying correct though as 0.89% of your crit is getting converted to hits. So its warning that 0.89% of your crits is being wasted. Perhaps the word CAP is the problem as its not actually over the cap but it is crit that isn't being used to crit. Does the "Combat Table (White)" help explain things? Top Right drop down that starts Gear | Head by default. Click on Gear and then select "Combat Table (White)". I suspect what we are looking at now is sorting the wording rather than disagreeing on the values. The graph aims to show where lost hit & crit is going. Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.
 01/14/10, 1:41 PM #42 Nevets_69 Piston Honda     Josua Orc Shaman   Arthas But he isn't wasting any crit at all, which is where the problem comes from. Even if he only had a 4.8% chance to crit, he would still be under the effect of the crit depression, and have a 0% chance to crit (theoretically; I think in practice you always have a 1% chance to crit). So you're not wasting crit until your chance for "Regular Hits" has been reduced to 4.8%, only then is additional crit being wasted. No matter what your crit rate is, it will always be 4.8% lower in practice when hitting a boss. Elemental Shaman: You're OOM. Enhancement Shaman: So are you.
01/14/10, 2:21 PM   #43
Rouncer

Orc Shaman

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Levva However isn't what its saying correct though as 0.89% of your crit is getting converted to hits. So its warning that 0.89% of your crits is being wasted. Perhaps the word CAP is the problem as its not actually over the cap but it is crit that isn't being used to crit. Does the "Combat Table (White)" help explain things? Top Right drop down that starts Gear | Head by default. Click on Gear and then select "Combat Table (White)". I suspect what we are looking at now is sorting the wording rather than disagreeing on the values. The graph aims to show where lost hit & crit is going.
None of my crit is being wasted. Every drop of it gives me more crit up to the actual crit cap. This was the part that confused the hell out of me when Bestpike started with his pms. Think about it this way.

(removing misses, dodge and parry - so crit cap is 76%)
If I have 10% crit, my actual crit rate will be 5.2% due to crit depression.
If I have 25% crit, my actual crit rate will be 20.2% due to crit depression.
If I have 70% crit, my actual crit rate will be 65.2% due to crit depression
If I have 75% crit, my actual crit rate will be 70.2% due to crit depression
If I have 76% crit, my actual crit rate will be 71.2% due to crit depression
(So every percentage point worth of crit was worth it's value as it was increasing my actual crit rate.)

If I have 77% crit, my actual crit rate will be 71.2% due to the crit cap.
(So that last percentage point worth of crit rating was completely wasted as my actual crit rate did not change)

01/14/10, 7:46 PM   #44
Levva
In Awe of Shocks

Draenei Shaman

Ok I've got it now makes perfect sense it was the combat table white that was throwing me. I've now tweaked it to remove the crit depression as this is being shown on the hit bar. My confusion was that the bars weren't adding up to 100%. Due to the crit depression appearing on the crit bar and the hit bar.

Try this latest build r1154 (NB. This also has the fix for the mana issues in the Rawr.Enhance thread).

Please let me know if this fits what you'd expect on the sheets and in the Combat Table (White). At below the cap, at the cap and above the cap.
Attached Files
 Rawr.Enhance.1154.zip (1.88 MB, 180 views)

Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

 01/15/10, 5:53 PM #45 Cobs Von Kaiser   Blacob Orc Shaman   Malorne One more thing about crit cap is that even when you are over white crit cap the crit isn't "completely" wasted. You still have lots of room left until the yellow and spell crit cap. That being said I can't see a situation where crit would retain a higher value than our other main stats but even the "hard" crit cap for white swings is still a "soft" cap for overall damage. Again this isn't me advocating going over white melee crit cap, just that you should still sim and test values over cap and not assume crit over white swing cap to be a 0 dps increase all else being equal.

 Elitist Jerks [Enhancement]: Critical cap analysis (Tow/HotC)