[Enhancement]: Critical cap analysis (Tow/HotC) - Page 5

Rouncer · 02/06/10, 6:03 PM

Apparently the testing that showed that the crit depression couldn't be removed was fubared by an issue with how Recount was interpreting the combat log.

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t76785-c...3/#post1548494

Hits can be pushed off the table so everyone has 4.8% more space to deal with before being crit capped.

bestpike · 02/06/10, 7:09 PM

Originally Posted by Rouncer

Apparently the testing that showed that the crit depression couldn't be removed was fubared by an issue with how Recount was interpreting the combat log.

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t76785-c...3/#post1548494

Hits can be pushed off the table so everyone has 4.8% more space to deal with before being crit capped.

Interesting finding. So if I understand this correct, you actually need (while expertise and hit capped) 80.8% critical on your character sheet to cap white crits?

Rouncer · 02/06/10, 7:24 PM

I opened a ticket at EnhSim so hopefully this will get fixed in the sim by the end of the weekend, EnhSim - View Issue #5963: Crit Cap - Sorry Eralun

Should make the BiS list a bit more interesting at least, since Whispering Fanged Skull and Deathbringer's Will just got a good deal better. Bestpike would you mind updating your spreadsheet? I've found it to be very helpful when looking at how to gem out gear and the crit cap is still going to play a role in our BiS set even with that additional room.

Just to clarify, if you are melee hit capped and dodge capped and hitting a mob from behind the crit cap is indeed 80.8%.

bestpike · 02/06/10, 8:30 PM

Download link of the latest version Crit cap calculator 2.1

Ok I have updated the spreadsheet with the new findings and also some improvements. The changes are the following:

1. Changed the crit cap according to Rouncer's post.

2. Incorporated Expertise rating to the table to make it more accurate.

3. Unified the Draenei and Non-Draenei table.

4. Two new race options. If you are an Orc without any maces equipped, put 1 in the first box and 0 on the second. If you are a Draenei, put 1 to second box and 0 on the first. If you are none, put 0 to both.

As usual, you fill only the RED boxes with info and also while in an unbuffed status. Those are:

1. Char sheet agility,
2. Char sheet melee critical chance,
3. Hit rating,
4. Expertise rating,
5. The race options. Be sure they are always filled with only either 1 or 0.

The green boxes calculate various useful information while the yellow box calculates how much more crit you can have before getting white capped.

Sastik · 02/07/10, 9:15 AM

Originally Posted by bestpike

Ok I have updated the spreadsheet with the new findings and also some improvements. The changes are the following:

1. Changed the crit cap according to Rouncer's post.

2. Incorporated Expertise rating to the table to make it more accurate.

3. Unified the Draenei and Non-Draenei table.

4. Two new race options. If you are an Orc without any maces equipped, put 1 in the first box and 0 on the second. If you are a Draenei, put 1 to second box and 0 on the first. If you are none, put 0 to both.

As usual, you fill only the RED boxes with info and also while in an unbuffed status. Those are:

1. Char sheet agility,
2. Char sheet melee critical chance,
3. Hit rating,
4. Expertise rating,
5. The race options. Be sure they are always filled with only either 1 or 0.

The green boxes calculate various useful information while the yellow box calculates how much more crit you can have before getting white capped.

The new download link is Crit cap calculator v2.0. I will remove the old one. Please report if I have made any mistakes, I wrote the spreadsheet formulas rather fast.

This could be a stupid question, but i do not have Excel. Do i need to download it in order to use this or is there a way around it

Lugia · 02/07/10, 9:59 AM

Originally Posted by Sastik

This could be a stupid question, but i do not have Excel. Do i need to download it in order to use this or is there a way around it

You could just go OpenOffice.org or maybe directly try the spreadsheet over Google Docs, both will do the work.

SentinelBorg · 02/10/10, 6:06 PM

I'm still not sure about the 4.8% value. That may be a rogue specific value. In my crit test some months ago, I had 1.8% critical hits (and 24.0% glancing) in over 10000 attacks vs. the heroic target dummy, while having a constant 4.73% char sheet melee critical chance. 3% seems much more likely to me.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

bestpike · 02/12/10, 5:56 AM

I have updated the Crit cap calculator to 2.1. The calculation was wrong when entering an expertise rating high enough to go over the expertise cap.

Download link
Crit cap calculator 2.1

Removing the older link.

Edit: The same calculation error happens when entering a hit rating high enough to go over the white attack hit cap.I won't update to a new version because getting rid of excess hit isn't very hard to do, just don't enter hit values that make your chance to miss a negative number (over the cap) in the spreadsheet.

Vlyxnol · 02/21/10, 5:02 PM

Originally Posted by bestpike

I have updated the Crit cap calculator to 2.1. The calculation was wrong when entering an expertise rating high enough to go over the expertise cap.

Download link
Crit cap calculator 2.1

Removing the older link.

Edit: The same calculation error happens when entering a hit rating high enough to go over the white attack hit cap.I won't update to a new version because getting rid of excess hit isn't very hard to do, just don't enter hit values that make your chance to miss a negative number (over the cap) in the spreadsheet.

Why does your final calculation start with 80.8%? First off, crit depression wasn't real, it was a symptom of people attacking from the front of target dummies and seeing white hits, which were really blocks not hits after all because recount didn't record it properly. Second off if it was real wouldn't you start off @ 71.2%?

To be a little more clear, if you are hit capped and dodge capped attacking a lvl 83 boss from behind you would experience 24% glancing blows which means your total crit rate could be 76% not 80.8%.

Rouncer · 02/21/10, 6:01 PM

Originally Posted by Vlyxnol

Why does your final calculation start with 80.8%? First off, crit depression wasn't real, it was a symptom of people attacking from the front of target dummies and seeing white hits, which were really blocks not hits after all because recount didn't record it properly. Second off if it was real wouldn't you start off @ 71.2%?

To be a little more clear, if you are hit capped and dodge capped attacking a lvl 83 boss from behind you would experience 24% glancing blows which means your total crit rate could be 76% not 80.8%.

Crit depression is still a real phenomenon, which means when attacking a boss target 4.8% of your melee crit goes poof. What was wrong was the concept that 4.8% of crit was converted to hits and that those hits couldn't be removed by just adding additional melee crit. So 80.8% is the correct figure for the amount of melee crit required to push hits completely off the table.

It has been suggested that the 4.8% only applies to rogues and that our melee crit reduction is more in the neighborhood of 3% but there has been no definitive testing proving that and due to elemental devastation not having 100% uptime it would be difficult to prove without controlled testing using a build without those talents.

Edit

Decided to confirm/deny the 4.8%. Made a gear set up with no expertise rating except for Orc Racial, no hit rating and no points in Dual Wield Spec. Crit Cap would then be 100 - 27% (miss) - 24% (glancing) - 5.25% (Dodge) = 43.75%

If the crit depression doesn't exist then no hit will be recorded above 43.75% melee crit. If our crit depression is only 3% then no hits will be recorded at 46.75%. If our crit depression is the same as a Rogues then it would require 48.55% melee crit to remove hit from the table.

All testing on the Boss Dummy in TB while attacking from behind to remove parry and block. Stopped series once a single hit was recorded, then added more crit rating (or used an SoE totem) and started the next series. 10k attacks without a hit being enough to prove that hit has been removed from the table.

44.5% melee crit - hit
46.75% melee crit - hit
47.67% melee crit - hit
48.34% melee crit - hit (occurred around 1400 attacks)
48.70% melee crit - no hit so far (took it to 4500 without a hit then got bored but seems enough to prove the point)

With that hit occurring with 48.34% melee crit it seems pretty safe to say that melee crit depression is indeed 4.8% for shaman just as it is for Rogues.

Vlyxnol · 02/22/10, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by Rouncer

Crit depression is still a real phenomenon, which means when attacking a boss target 4.8% of your melee crit goes poof. What was wrong was the concept that 4.8% of crit was converted to hits and that those hits couldn't be removed by just adding additional melee crit. So 80.8% is the correct figure for the amount of melee crit required to push hits completely off the table.

It has been suggested that the 4.8% only applies to rogues and that our melee crit reduction is more in the neighborhood of 3% but there has been no definitive testing proving that and due to elemental devastation not having 100% uptime it would be difficult to prove without controlled testing using a build without those talents.

Edit

Decided to confirm/deny the 4.8%. Made a gear set up with no expertise rating except for Orc Racial, no hit rating and no points in Dual Wield Spec. Crit Cap would then be 100 - 27% (miss) - 24% (glancing) - 5.25% (Dodge) = 43.75%

If the crit depression doesn't exist then no hit will be recorded above 43.75% melee crit. If our crit depression is only 3% then no hits will be recorded at 46.75%. If our crit depression is the same as a Rogues then it would require 48.55% melee crit to remove hit from the table.

All testing on the Boss Dummy in TB while attacking from behind to remove parry and block. Stopped series once a single hit was recorded, then added more crit rating (or used an SoE totem) and started the next series. 10k attacks without a hit being enough to prove that hit has been removed from the table.

44.5% melee crit - hit
46.75% melee crit - hit
47.67% melee crit - hit
48.34% melee crit - hit (occurred around 1400 attacks)
48.70% melee crit - no hit so far (took it to 4500 without a hit then got bored but seems enough to prove the point)

With that hit occurring with 48.34% melee crit it seems pretty safe to say that melee crit depression is indeed 4.8% for shaman just as it is for Rogues.

I thought it was 6.5% dodge not 5.25%?

edit~~ nvm your orc.

Cobs · 02/23/10, 1:48 PM

As it looks like after Rouncer's tests we can come to a conclusion on the topic (and just to make sure I'm understanding all the findings completely) our crit cap can be simplified to

80.8% - miss chance % - Dodge chance % (assumed to be negated by expertise in most cases) = crit cap

OR

80.8% - (27% - Paperdoll hit chance%) - (6.5% - expertise dodge negation%) = crit cap

I know people made a couple scripts to calculate room under crit cap based on your paperdoll hit and crit chances but I'm not sure how outdated those are, can someone better at writing scripts than I make one with these numbers?

Miril · 02/23/10, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Cobs

I know people made a couple scripts to calculate room under crit cap based on your paperdoll hit and crit chances but I'm not sure how outdated those are, can someone better at writing scripts than I make one with these numbers?

I think it would look something like this - modified from the first page, automatically subtracted the glance chance and added the suppressed 4.8:

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Room below crit cap: "..80.8-(27-(GetCombatRatingBonus(6)+6))-(GetCritChance()+3))

Includes the 3% crit debuff from ToW/retbuff#100

Cobs · 02/23/10, 5:27 PM

You would need to run that script while fully raid buffed (Kings, LotP, SoE) and then factor in the 9% of ED on top of that correct?

Miril · 02/23/10, 5:45 PM

Originally Posted by Cobs

You would need to run that script while fully raid buffed (Kings, LotP, SoE) and then factor in the 9% of ED on top of that correct?

Yes. It checks your current state.