[Enhancement] BiS gear and set-up discussion (3.3 and onward) - Page 11

smalluk · 04/25/10, 10:27 AM

Just got a quick question about the gemming. I've noticed theres a lot of +20 hit gems in. is this to cap it to the 446 level or the lower one that assumes moonkin or spriest in the raid?

Lumb · 04/25/10, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by smalluk

Just got a quick question about the gemming. I've noticed theres a lot of +20 hit gems in. is this to cap it to the 446 level or the lower one that assumes moonkin or spriest in the raid?

The BiS list is calculated assuming you have a shadow priest / moonkin in the raid; the hit gems are there because at high gear levels shamans start reaching the crit cap. The only way to increase the crit cap after being 26/26 expertise is by getting more hit, so essentially you end up getting crit AND hit from just hit, usually making it the best stat to gem for until you are no longer crit capped.

All about the crit cap: [Enhancement]: Critical cap analysis (Tow/HotC)

davek · 05/18/10, 5:11 PM

We've a glance at the Phys. DPS trinket outta Ruby Sanctum. Sharpened Twilight Scale is an iLvL 271 trinket which provides 163 static ARP and procs for 1304 AP for 15 seconds.

While I wouldn't necessarily steal one from a more ArP favouring class, unless the math works out otherwise, I definitely wouldn't mind grabbing one for fooling around in 4.0/pre-Cat release with to see if that ArP becomes Haste.

Cochice · 05/19/10, 1:03 PM

Since RS loot is on par with LK look, it's a safe assumption that there is a 284 version of that trinket. It still probably won't out-perform heroic Abomb or War Totem, but it will likely be close.

fire_slyr01 · 05/20/10, 12:40 AM

Not sure if this is the correct place, But i have been running rawr v2/3/17 and im not sure if im not getting it set up right but it keeps telling me to Gem AP gems over haste is there a reason for this from everything im reading and seeing after hit and expertiese cap we want haste as long as were not over crit cap. I do have all gems and enchants selected for the optimizer. Any pointers or suggestions. My gear is basically the BIS gear list in the non heroic form except i have crafted boots and the badge belt at this time. thanks for the help

Vim · 05/20/10, 3:10 AM

You should be running Enhsim, not Rawr to determine how to gem. Export your char from Rawr to Enhsim using the clipboard, and run the sim. Take the results from that and change the gemming in Rawr, then re-run to see the improvement/loss. The best spot for this discussion is in the Enhsim thread.

rava · 06/30/10, 1:12 AM

I updated the list to the best of my ability with Ruby Sanctum loot. Posted specifics under the main heading.

Jolosinlol · 07/02/10, 2:09 PM

Did u tryed [Charred Twilight Scale] insteat of [Sharpened Twilight Scale] ?
I tryed to simulate it in enhsim but enhsim sais "Trinket 54572 not found." would u please add it?

• Krish · 07/07/10, 2:54 PM

[Charred Twilight Scale] might, by use of the outmoded EP system, be an upgrade over [Sharpened Twilight Scale]. In my particular gear the proc (assuming 30% uptime) is roughly 180 EP worse and the equip bonus is roughly 360 EP better (making the haste trinket worth about 120 DPS more than the armor penetration one). Having it added to the sim is really the only way to tell with complete confidence, though (especially in the case of large jumps in haste). I'll create a ticket for the sim in the hopes that we can get much more reliable data.

Deathicle · 07/07/10, 8:25 PM

Originally Posted by Krish

[Charred Twilight Scale] might, by use of the outmoded EP system, be an upgrade over [Sharpened Twilight Scale]. In my particular gear the proc (assuming 30% uptime) is roughly 180 EP worse and the equip bonus is roughly 360 EP better (making the haste trinket worth about 120 DPS more than the armor penetration one). Having it added to the sim is really the only way to tell with complete confidence, though (especially in the case of large jumps in haste). I'll create a ticket for the sim in the hopes that we can get much more reliable data.

With CTS and HWT, I found that simply adding the passive haste and 33% of the trinket spell power proc resulted in 12786 dps. However, using CTS AND STS resulted in 12881 dps.

### Saved by v1.9.8.8 of EnhSimGUI

config_version                  1.9.8.8
simulation_time                 5000
simulation_time_combatlog       300
combat_length                   7.00
report_count                    80
threads                         1
combat_length_rng_factor        0.35
min_lag                         230
max_lag                         260
simulate_mana                   1
cast_sr_on_cooldown             1

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           80
ep_crit_rating                  40
ep_hit_rating                   40
ep_expertise                    4
ep_haste_rating                 40
ep_armor_penetration_rating     40
ep_spellpower                   46
ep_dps                          7.5
ep_mana                         600
ep_spirit                       40
ep_mp5                          40

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0.00
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        0
use_bloodlust                   1
always_bloodlust_wolves         0
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cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       1250
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000
necrotic_touch                  0
necrotic_touch_heroic           0

rotation_priority_count         14
rotation_priority1              MW5_LB
rotation_priority2              FS
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rotation_priority6              MT_0
rotation_priority7              SW
rotation_priority8              SR
rotation_priority9              ES
rotation_priority10             SS
rotation_priority11             LL
rotation_priority12             FN
rotation_priority13             MT
rotation_priority14             LS

aoe_rotation_priority_count     12
aoe_rotation_priority1          SW
aoe_rotation_priority2          SR
aoe_rotation_priority3          SS_0
aoe_rotation_priority4          MW5_LB
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fight_name                      standard_single_target
miss                            8.00
dodge                           6.50
glancing                        24.00
armor                           10643
spell_miss                      17.00
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

additional_targets              0
additional_target_percent       0.00
additional_target_level         80

armor_debuff_major              20.0/20.0
armor_debuff_minor              5.0/5.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff   4.0/4.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          687/687
attack_power_buff_multiplier    0/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        5.0/5.0
spell_damage_debuff             13.0/13.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   51/51
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               0
blessing_of_wisdom              1
judgement_of_wisdom             1
mixology                        0

flask_elixir                    flask_of_endless_rage
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          potion_of_speed
food                            fish_feast

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            tauren
mh_speed                        2.6
oh_speed                        2.6
mh_dps                          264.6
oh_dps                          264.6
mh_crit                         53.47
oh_crit                         53.47
mh_hit                          15.13
oh_hit                          15.13
mh_expertise_rating             140
oh_expertise_rating             140
ap                              5410
melee_haste                     35.80
armor_penetration               23.08
str                             145
agi                             1873
int                             743
spi                             165
spellpower                      1910
spell_crit                      34.73
spell_hit                       18.91
spell_haste                     27.54
max_mana                        15261
mp5                             0

mh_imbue                        windfury
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      berserking
oh_enchant                      berserking

mh_weapon                       axe
oh_weapon                       axe

trinket1                        sharpened_twilight_scale_heroic
trinket2                        -

totem                           bizuris_totem_of_shattered_ice

set_bonus1                      t10_battlegear_4
set_bonus2                      -
set_bonus3                      -

metagem                         relentless_earthsiege_diamond

gloves_enchant                  -
cloak_enchant                   -
ring_proc                       ashen_verdict

glyph_major1                    feral_spirit
glyph_major2                    flame_shock
glyph_major3                    stormstrike

glyph_minor1                    -
glyph_minor2                    -
glyph_minor3                    -

ancestral_knowledge             2/5
improved_shields                3/3
mental_dexterity                3/3
shamanistic_focus               0/1
flurry                          5/5
elemental_weapons               3/3
unleashed_rage                  3/3
weapon_mastery                  3/3
dual_wield_specialization       3/3
mental_quickness                3/3
improved_stormstrike            0/2
static_shock                    3/3
maelstrom_weapon                5/5

convection                      0/5
concussion                      5/5
call_of_flame                   3/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
reverberation                   1/5
elemental_focus                 0/1
elemental_fury                  5/5
improved_fire_nova              2/2
call_of_thunder                 0/1
unrelenting_storm               0/3
elemental_precision             0/3
lightning_mastery               0/5
elemental_oath                  0/2
lightning_overload              0/5
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
shamanism                       0/5

EnhSim version 1.9.8.8

................................................................................


MH:
miss                977991         5.86%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            4001872        23.99%
hit                 109423         0.66%
crit                11589353       69.49%
average ap          9472.69
clip                0              0.00%

MH Windfury:
procs/hits          13.58%
procs/swings        12.87%
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 1282721        26.78%
crit                3506325        73.22%
average ap          9473.20

MH Storsmtrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 515317         26.71%
crit                1414040        73.29%
average ap          9439.24

OH:
miss                977859         5.86%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            4004107        24.01%
hit                 110237         0.66%
crit                11586437       69.47%
average ap          9479.77
clip                0              0.00%

OH Flametongue:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 10006913       51.10%
crit                9577080        48.90%
average sp          3729.47

OH Stormstrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 515898         26.74%
crit                1413459        73.26%
average ap          9488.89

Earth Shock:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 568412         51.00%
crit                546174         49.00%
average sp          3719.47

Flame Shock:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 648354         51.08%
crit                620965         48.92%
average sp          3723.64
dots hit            3764232        51.11%
dots crit           3601233        48.89%
average dot sp      3727.45

Lava Lash:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 523095         26.77%
crit                1430760        73.23%
average ap          9439.62

Lightning Bolt:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 1631958        51.12%
crit                1560668        48.88%
average sp          3756.04

Fire Nova:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 777247         51.09%
crit                744013         48.91%
average sp          3717.75

Lightning Shield:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 2848546        100.00%
crit                0              0.00%
average sp          3740.76

Spirit Wolves:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            1913214        24.01%
hit                 5141518        64.51%
crit                915118         11.48%
average ap          9515.90

Magma Totem:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 2983394        51.10%
crit                2854994        48.90%
average sp          3727.25

Fire Elemental Melee:
miss                109850         8.02%
dodge               58548          4.28%
glancing            329348         24.05%
hit                 830466         60.64%
crit                41324          3.02%

Fire Elemental Fire Shield:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 1556987        92.01%
crit                135169         7.99%

Fire Elemental Fire Nova:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 629839         91.98%
crit                54929          8.02%

Fire Elemental Fire Blast:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 649430         91.98%
crit                56613          8.02%

Fire Elemental stats:
average ap          9568.27
average sp          3756.97
MPS                 65.54
MPCooldown          7865.20
Out of mana time    0.00%
MRPCooldown         2819.90
MRPS                23.61

Fire Elemental      MRPS without overregen
mana regen          3.31      14.08%
judgement of wisdom 20.19     85.92%


Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 60.67
efficiency          87.71%

flurry uptime                  97.71%
unleashed rage uptime          100.00%
elemental devastation uptime   91.93%
mh enchant uptime              56.05%
oh enchant uptime              51.31%
stormstrike debuff uptime      84.53%
flame shock uptime             82.81%
lightning shield uptime        96.73%
magma totem uptime             65.85%
fire elemental uptime          28.53%

trinket1 uptime                32.74%
totem uptime                   100.00%
ring proc uptime               16.58%


Set bonus uptimes:
Frost Witch's Battlegear 2 piece        25.26%
Frost Witch's Battlegear 4 piece        24.70%

                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.00      0.00%
mp5                 16.63     4.93%
replenishment       41.64     12.34%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
judgement of wisdom 108.45    32.14%
shamanistic rage    170.73    50.59%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc                0.00      0.00%
stormstrike         0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               4734.01   36.75%    111.19
windfury            1534.56   11.91%    7.98
flametongue         1065.22   8.27%     65.28
stormstrike         604.88    4.7%      6.43      35.43     10.18%
lava lash           421.55    3.27%     6.51      17.94     5.16%
magma totem         496.01    3.85%     2.08      38.75     11.14%
earth shock         340.43    2.64%     3.72      46.06     13.24%
flame shock         720.86    5.6%      4.23      49.54     14.24%
lightning bolt      1435.79   11.15%    10.64     77.97     22.41%
fire nova           329.82    2.56%     5.07      76.83     22.08%
lightning shield    364.11    2.83%     1.20      0.00      0.00%
spirit wolves       358.89    2.79%     0.38      3.18      0.91%
fire elemental      474.49    3.68%     0.14      2.26      0.65%
  melee             265.23    55.9%     4.57
  fire shield       16.36     3.45%     5.64
  fire nova         124.52    26.24%    2.28
  fire blast        68.39     14.41%    2.35

DPS                 12880.63
MPS                 347.96
MP2min              41755.22
MRPS                488.74
Out of mana time    0.00%

elapsed simulation time: 5000.00h
elapsed real time: 22.43s
simulation speed: 802496x

rava · 07/07/10, 9:37 PM

Thanks for putting the time in. I'm waiting to update the OP until the trinket is added though. Weighing a proc as a passive stat won't translate the same way.

Alvarisle · 07/09/10, 9:04 PM

Question, would using hit rating battle elixir +stats guardian elixir and hit rating food be better than AP flask+feast? that way you get hit rating + haste instead of hit+AP, sorry if it's been answered before.

FortheWhorde · 07/16/10, 5:47 PM

Question about the chart on the previous page. Hit rating as you have mentioned, raises the crit cap after hit has been capped. So when does gemming for hit which raises the crit cap/white damage, have less ep than gemming for attack power or haste. From my perception of previous posts and the chart posted, it looks as if haste does less dps than attack power and hit.

• Jessamy · 07/16/10, 7:41 PM

EP values are -- at best -- a quick and dirty way to find potential upgrades using a web site like lootrank, or an addon like pawn. The problem with EP is as soon as you equip a new piece of gear, change a gem, change a glyph, or anything, you have a completely new set of gear, with completely new EP values.

Some stats' EP values stay fairly steady as you improve your gear. ArPen, for example, always makes your physical hits do more damage. However, hit, crit, and haste all behave in more complex ways as they go up -- and they have chaotic effects on each other.

That's why whether you're deciding on an upgrade for your own personal gear, or crafting the best possible set of gear in the game, you can't compare individual items, or individual stats. You have to compare entire sets of gear.

Let me repeat that -- do not use EP to choose upgrades. Use EP to get a rough ballpark estimate of what gear you might want to choose from, and then sim out every possible set of gear you might have access to. This sounds overwhelming, but in reality your choices for any particular gear slot are much more limited than the vast listing available on wowhead.

Anyone in the future who criticizes the BiS list by using EP, or with any other method other than following the rules specific to this thread, will get an infraction. I'm not doing this to you this time, but let this be a public admonishment to you and all others who read this post considering making silly suggestions without real data.

ziff · 08/07/10, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by rava

Thanks for putting the time in. I'm waiting to update the OP until the trinket is added though. Weighing a proc as a passive stat won't translate the same way.

EnhSim 1.9.8.10 has CTS added, so you can use EnhSim to check it out. CTS was still showing up below the War Token with 12606 dps versus 12769, but I didn't play around with any combinations. Now I do have the CTS modeled with a 10% chance to proc and a 45 second ICD, which is the same as DFO. Not sure if anybody has the CTS and can confirm if these numbers are correct.

Just as a note, with the new version of EnhSim I fixed the overvaluation of the Glyph of Flame Shock. When I run the current BIS against 1.9.8.10 I get 12769 dps, but if I switch Glyph of Windfury Weapon for Glyph of Flame Shock I get 12824. So you might need to relook at the optimal glyphs.