Team Robot Simulator and Gear Comparison Tool - Page 3

Lumb · 02/27/10, 10:06 PM

Haven't really played around with this tool much yet, though it looks amazing visually! I couldn't find a way to insert magma totem into the priority list, do you have plans to add that in? It is the totem of choice for enhancement shamans currently.

zeroavix · 02/28/10, 2:30 AM

Originally Posted by Lumb

Haven't really played around with this tool much yet, though it looks amazing visually! I couldn't find a way to insert magma totem into the priority list, do you have plans to add that in? It is the totem of choice for enhancement shamans currently.

In the spot where they have searing totem, just change the ability to magma totem and change the requirements to only use if they don't have magma totem on the enemy already.

I played around with the rotation a bit to mimic what I use in enhsim currently, and it's putting my dps from 1000 runs of a 7 minute (420 secs) fight at around 10,164.4 dps (+/- 46.5). Enhsim currently puts my dps with the same rotation at 10,462.84.

One of the things that impressed me about it is the modeling for [Black Bruise] and [Tiny Abomination in a Jar] are very close to what I see in game on Saurfang and Festergut. Overall, its very nice simulator, and with a few minor tuning and tweaks of the enhance module I could see this being very close to Enhsim's accuracy.

Yellowsix · 03/01/10, 2:42 PM

I've posted an update with some tweaks and bug fixes. The full list of changes is at: WoW Simulator Change Log.

I usually follow the release of a class with a round of bug fixes and tweaks that pop up in the first couple of days. I ran some comparisons of the Team Robot simulator to EnhSim, and also compared that to some combat logs. I noticed a few things:

- Our default rotation uses Searing Totem, because our tests show it doing equal or slightly more DPS than Magma Totem. (The totem itself does a bit less damage, but it frees up extra time to use other abilities because you have to cast it less often). EnhSim (I was using version 1.9.7.1) doesn't seem to model Searing Totem very well. It always clips out 1 minute of up-time (one cast) that it should not. For instance, in a 5-minute fight using Fire Elemental, you should see nearly 60% up-time for Searing Totem, but EnhSim shows 40%. For a 7-minute fight, it shows around 57% up-time when it should show 71%, and so on. If I just manually correct for this bug (by multiplying the DPS done by searing totem appropriately), EnhSim also shows Searing Totem to do slightly more DPS than Magma Totem.

- I noticed in some of the threads that people rate [Tiny Abomination in a Jar] very highly for enhancement. I must not have some of my information correct, because my simulations are not showing it doing very good DPS at all. For the normal version, my simulations show it charging up and attacking roughly every 8-10 seconds (charges build off of any melee attack [auto, stormstrike, lava lash, etc.] with a 45% proc rate) or about 33 procs in a 5-minute fight. It uses a 50% chance to hit with MH or OH, and I'm using normalized weapon damage. I'm also assuming that it cannot trigger windfury or flametongue, or any other proc for that matter.

With those assumptions... it's not a very good trinket. Are some of those assumptions incorrect?

pintor · 03/01/10, 3:02 PM

Originally Posted by Yellowsix

...EnhSim searing totem uptime...

I have opened a ticket on EnhSim for this issue: EnhSim - View Issue #6110: Searing totem uptime thanks for the report!

As for TaiJ, the normal version of the trinket is generally accepted as underwhelming due to the low hit rating budget, and the proc not being amazing. However, the heroic version is quite nice because of two reasons. One, the proc in the heroic version actually does become quite nice after only needing 7 motes instead of 8. Second, and more important, the hit rating in heroic gear becomes more important because of the melee crit cap, and it opens up a lot more gearing options.

Rouncer · 03/01/10, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by Yellowsix

I've posted an update with some tweaks and bug fixes. The full list of changes is at: WoW Simulator Change Log.

I usually follow the release of a class with a round of bug fixes and tweaks that pop up in the first couple of days. I ran some comparisons of the Team Robot simulator to EnhSim, and also compared that to some combat logs. I noticed a few things:

- Our default rotation uses Searing Totem, because our tests show it doing equal or slightly more DPS than Magma Totem. (The totem itself does a bit less damage, but it frees up extra time to use other abilities because you have to cast it less often). EnhSim (I was using version 1.9.7.1) doesn't seem to model Searing Totem very well. It always clips out 1 minute of up-time (one cast) that it should not. For instance, in a 5-minute fight using Fire Elemental, you should see nearly 60% up-time for Searing Totem, but EnhSim shows 40%. For a 7-minute fight, it shows around 57% up-time when it should show 71%, and so on. If I just manually correct for this bug (by multiplying the DPS done by searing totem appropriately), EnhSim also shows Searing Totem to do slightly more DPS than Magma Totem.

- I noticed in some of the threads that people rate [Tiny Abomination in a Jar] very highly for enhancement. I must not have some of my information correct, because my simulations are not showing it doing very good DPS at all. For the normal version, my simulations show it charging up and attacking roughly every 8-10 seconds (charges build off of any melee attack [auto, stormstrike, lava lash, etc.] with a 45% proc rate) or about 33 procs in a 5-minute fight. It uses a 50% chance to hit with MH or OH, and I'm using normalized weapon damage. I'm also assuming that it cannot trigger windfury or flametongue, or any other proc for that matter.

With those assumptions... it's not a very good trinket. Are some of those assumptions incorrect?

Searing Totem doesn't work well so if you are modeling your simulator off the tooltip then your simulator is wrong.

Searing Totem - Thottbot: World of Warcraft

Then the actual damage comes from Attack - Thottbot: World of Warcraft which shows the 2.2 second cast time. Problem is that when testing it in game it only actually causes damage roughly every 2.5 seconds if my memory serves. We tested it in-game before including it in EnhSim which is why EnhSim models it correctly.

Edit - As for Tiny Abom it can proc Flametongue and Windfury and Maelstrom Weapon and Lightning Shields from Static Shock etc. Regular version is still not great but heroic version is our BiS for a reason.

kasouti · 03/01/10, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Rouncer

Searing Totem doesn't work well so if you are modeling your simulator off the tooltip then your simulator is wrong.

Searing Totem - Thottbot: World of Warcraft

Then the actual damage comes from Attack - Thottbot: World of Warcraft which shows the 2.2 second cast time. Problem is that when testing it in game it only actually causes damage roughly every 2.5 seconds if my memory serves. We tested it in-game before including it in EnhSim which is why EnhSim models it correctly.

The simulator actually seems to have it casting every 2 seconds anyways. So regardless it is simulating the searing totem incorrectly.

Yellowsix · 03/01/10, 3:54 PM

Rouncer:

Clipping 1 minute off of the up-time for searing totem is an inaccurate implementation no matter how you slice it. I highly doubt that the EnhSim people did it on purpose -- the fact that it's always 1 minute no matter the fight length... and the duration of the ability itself is 1 minute... it is highly probable that it is a minor flaw in the priority logic.

If searing totem is actually casting every 2.2 or 2.5 seconds, then it should simply be modeled with that cast time. I will do an in-game test to determine the actual cast time, it should be very simple to do.

A side note Rouncer: in another thread (EnhSim updated thread) you are claiming that EnhSim's ArP calculation is incorrect. (you also posted here EnhSim - View Issue #6108: ArP debuffs).

It appears that the armor pen constant should indeed use the target's level, not the player's level, resulting in a constant of 16635. (I need to double check what constant I'm using in the Team Robot simulator, make sure it's correct). This is supported by: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?!

You also claim that sunder and faerie fire stack additively. I cannot find any support for this. The wowwiki post claims it, but that is the only place that makes such a claim. I have found a couple posts to the contrary. Here is one example: ThinkTank: [Druid] The threat value of arpen.

We will stick with sunder/FF stacking multiplying until a definitive source can be provided that proves otherwise.

Rouncer · 03/01/10, 4:08 PM

Where are you getting this one minute clipping effect? I'm looking at the actual outputs and they are on the money when compared to in-game performance and there is no clipping at all that I can see.

As for Armor Penetration, go read the code and then compare in-game performance to what the sim is outputting, that's I determined there was an issue and when I use my workaround the values for white damage on a fully debuffed constant target situation fall directly in line with what is seen from the sim's output.

As for the stacking multiplicatively or additively, that's a minor issue but I was going off the wiki article and if that is incorrect then that's just a little thing that won't need to be fixed.

pintor · 03/01/10, 4:16 PM

Originally Posted by Rouncer

Where are you getting this one minute clipping effect? I'm looking at the actual outputs and they are on the money when compared to in-game performance and there is no clipping at all that I can see.

In a 5 minute fight where we use the fire elemental, searing totem should be up for ~60% of the time (regardless of how many times it 'ticks'). The simulator is reporting a 40% uptime, which represents about 1 minute of time where it is not up. Unless the simulator is somehow modeling uptime by how much time is spent attacking, versus how much time the totem is down, there is no reason searing totem should be "missing" this other 20%. The same is true for any time frame you input into enhsim, and what I posted the issue on.

Yellowsix · 03/01/10, 4:39 PM

I just did a quick test and can confirm that Searing Totem has a cast time of 2.5 seconds (Against a target dummy, I get exactly 24 attacks per cast of searing totem).

With that change, Magma Totem now does slightly more damage than Searing Totem. I've updated the Team Robot rotations to reflect this.

The point still stands that there is something not quite right with EnhSim's model of Searing Totem though, which is making the gap in DPS between the two totems seem larger than it really is.

Cochice · 03/01/10, 4:50 PM

Your default Enhance rotation has SS, SS_0 (SS w/ no SS debuff) and ES_SS (ES with SS debuffs up). It's been shown that having both SS_0 and ES_SS is redundant in a rotation, since if there are no debuffs up, the logic will hit the SS_0 before it hits the ES_SS. On a related note, there seems to be no ES in the rotation (ie when no debuff up).

This is obviously fixable in the custom rotation, however, the redundancy should be removed from the default.

Rouncer · 03/01/10, 4:56 PM

EnhSim version 1.9.7.1

................................................................................


MH:
miss                278930         8.77%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            762807         23.98%
hit                 224470         7.06%
crit                1914438        60.19%
average ap          8861.20
clip                0              0.00%

MH Windfury:
procs/hits          14.62%
procs/swings        13.47%
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 353369         36.81%
crit                606649         63.19%
average ap          8860.43

MH Storsmtrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 141061         36.87%
crit                241530         63.13%
average ap          8855.59

OH:
miss                279074         8.77%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            764502         24.04%
hit                 225325         7.08%
crit                1911749        60.11%
average ap          8867.47
clip                0              0.00%

OH Flametongue:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 2099688        56.17%
crit                1638625        43.83%
average sp          3470.17

OH Stormstrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 141234         36.92%
crit                241357         63.08%
average ap          8870.56

Earth Shock:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 161109         56.12%
crit                125946         43.88%
average sp          3469.65

Flame Shock:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 105988         56.27%
crit                82374          43.73%
average sp          3459.67
dots hit            1037622        100.00%
dots crit           0              0.00%
average dot sp      3465.69

Lava Lash:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 167123         36.80%
crit                287023         63.20%
average ap          8861.95

Lightning Bolt:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 234587         56.22%
crit                182665         43.78%
average sp          3478.08

Fire Nova:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 191948         56.11%
crit                150148         43.89%
average sp          3472.27

Lightning Shield:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 820815         100.00%
crit                0              0.00%
average sp          3473.68

Spirit Wolves:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            458348         24.02%
hit                 1229932        64.47%
crit                219596         11.51%
average ap          8910.35

Searing Totem:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 535904         56.17%
crit                418163         43.83%
average sp          3470.95

Fire Elemental Melee:
miss                21967          8.01%
dodge               11572          4.22%
glancing            65984          24.06%
hit                 166596         60.73%
crit                8185           2.98%

Fire Elemental Fire Shield:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 311639         91.99%
crit                27150          8.01%

Fire Elemental Fire Nova:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 126140         91.97%
crit                11012          8.03%

Fire Elemental Fire Blast:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 130135         92.03%
crit                11270          7.97%

Fire Elemental stats:
average ap          8859.55
average sp          3405.43
MPS                 65.54
MPCooldown          7864.94
Out of mana time    0.00%
MRPCooldown         2825.22
MRPS                23.65

Fire Elemental      MRPS without overregen
mana regen          3.31      14.07%
judgement of wisdom 20.23     85.93%


Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 57.61
efficiency          60.36%

flurry uptime                  95.02%
unleashed rage uptime          100.00%
elemental devastation uptime   84.00%
mh enchant uptime              53.93%
oh enchant uptime              49.78%
stormstrike debuff uptime      78.81%
flame shock uptime             88.55%
lightning shield uptime        98.78%
searing totem uptime           55.86%
fire elemental uptime          28.57%

trinket2 uptime                27.95%
racial uptime                  14.29%
totem uptime                   100.00%
gloves enchant uptime          20.00%
ring proc uptime               16.57%


Set bonus uptimes:
Frost Witch's Battlegear 2 piece        25.00%

                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.00      0.00%
mp5                 13.01     8.47%
replenishment       32.02     20.83%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
judgement of wisdom 79.71     51.86%
shamanistic rage    28.97     18.84%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc                0.00      0.00%
stormstrike         0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               3575.47   34.92%    106.02
windfury            1250.42   12.21%    8.00
flametongue         934.45    9.13%     62.31
stormstrike         485.35    4.74%     6.38      35.13     22.71%
lava lash           419.51    4.1%      7.57      14.90     9.63%
searing totem       349.71    3.42%     0.71      3.44      2.23%
earth shock         395.75    3.86%     4.78      17.14     11.08%
flame shock         290.46    2.84%     3.14      10.81     6.99%
lightning bolt      846.49    8.27%     6.95      41.57     26.88%
fire nova           345.52    3.37%     5.70      25.87     16.73%
lightning shield    471.41    4.6%      1.76      0.00      0.00%
spirit wolves       433.45    4.23%     0.43      3.54      2.29%
fire elemental      442.08    4.32%     0.14      2.26      1.46%
  melee             243.90    55.17%    4.57
  fire shield       15.81     3.58%     5.65
  fire nova         117.05    26.48%    2.29
  fire blast        65.32     14.77%    2.36

DPS                 10240.06
MPS                 154.67
MP2min              18560.29
MRPS                463.69
Out of mana time    0.00%

elapsed simulation time: 1000.00h
elapsed real time: 12.12s
simulation speed: 296931x

~55% uptime over a 7 minute encounter under normal priorities.

Up the Fire Elemental to top priority and Searing Totem to directly under it.

EnhSim version 1.9.7.1

................................................................................


MH:
miss                279627         8.79%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            761983         23.96%
hit                 225036         7.08%
crit                1913970        60.18%
average ap          8861.11
clip                0              0.00%

MH Windfury:
procs/hits          14.63%
procs/swings        13.48%
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 354094         36.88%
crit                605916         63.12%
average ap          8860.13

MH Storsmtrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 140255         36.97%
crit                239138         63.03%
average ap          8850.25

OH:
miss                279317         8.78%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            764070         24.02%
hit                 224763         7.07%
crit                1912472        60.13%
average ap          8866.12
clip                0              0.00%

OH Flametongue:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 2098019        56.18%
crit                1636449        43.82%
average sp          3470.36

OH Stormstrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 139662         36.81%
crit                239731         63.19%
average ap          8865.43

Earth Shock:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 160623         56.09%
crit                125743         43.91%
average sp          3469.04

Flame Shock:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 105807         56.00%
crit                83134          44.00%
average sp          3460.72
dots hit            1039878        100.00%
dots crit           0              0.00%
average dot sp      3466.43

Lava Lash:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 167361         36.88%
crit                286409         63.12%
average ap          8862.54

Lightning Bolt:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 234604         56.09%
crit                183686         43.91%
average sp          3478.61

Fire Nova:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 190070         56.15%
crit                148422         43.85%
average sp          3473.78

Lightning Shield:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 816068         100.00%
crit                0              0.00%
average sp          3474.73

Spirit Wolves:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            456056         23.97%
hit                 1227994        64.53%
crit                218786         11.50%
average ap          8909.31

Searing Totem:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 554923         56.22%
crit                432115         43.78%
average sp          3470.08

Fire Elemental Melee:
miss                21924          7.99%
dodge               11669          4.25%
glancing            65847          24.01%
hit                 166692         60.77%
crit                8172           2.98%

Fire Elemental Fire Shield:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 312170         91.98%
crit                27204          8.02%

Fire Elemental Fire Nova:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 126248         92.05%
crit                10904          7.95%

Fire Elemental Fire Blast:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 130106         92.04%
crit                11246          7.96%

Fire Elemental stats:
average ap          8798.21
average sp          3437.35
MPS                 65.53
MPCooldown          7863.23
Out of mana time    0.00%
MRPCooldown         2823.79
MRPS                23.64

Fire Elemental      MRPS without overregen
mana regen          3.31      14.09%
judgement of wisdom 20.22     85.91%


Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 57.60
efficiency          60.51%

flurry uptime                  95.02%
unleashed rage uptime          100.00%
elemental devastation uptime   83.92%
mh enchant uptime              54.04%
oh enchant uptime              49.64%
stormstrike debuff uptime      78.34%
flame shock uptime             88.86%
lightning shield uptime        98.45%
searing totem uptime           69.41%
fire elemental uptime          28.57%

trinket2 uptime                28.04%
racial uptime                  14.29%
totem uptime                   99.98%
gloves enchant uptime          20.00%
ring proc uptime               16.57%


Set bonus uptimes:
Frost Witch's Battlegear 2 piece        25.00%

                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.00      0.00%
mp5                 13.03     8.49%
replenishment       32.11     20.91%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
judgement of wisdom 79.92     52.06%
shamanistic rage    28.46     18.54%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc                0.00      0.00%
stormstrike         0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               3571.81   34.86%    106.02
windfury            1248.88   12.19%    8.00
flametongue         933.51    9.11%     62.24
stormstrike         480.29    4.69%     6.32      34.84     22.53%
lava lash           420.32    4.1%      7.56      14.89     9.63%
searing totem       363.22    3.54%     0.84      4.05      2.62%
earth shock         395.16    3.86%     4.77      17.09     11.05%
flame shock         290.97    2.84%     3.15      10.94     7.07%
lightning bolt      854.28    8.34%     6.97      41.64     26.93%
fire nova           344.05    3.36%     5.64      25.41     16.43%
lightning shield    468.83    4.58%     1.75      0.00      0.00%
spirit wolves       432.30    4.22%     0.43      3.54      2.29%
fire elemental      443.73    4.33%     0.14      2.26      1.46%
  melee             244.56    55.12%    4.57
  fire shield       15.89     3.58%     5.66
  fire nova         117.70    26.53%    2.29
  fire blast        65.57     14.78%    2.36

DPS                 10247.35
MPS                 154.66
MP2min              18558.75
MRPS                464.90
Out of mana time    0.00%

elapsed simulation time: 1000.00h
elapsed real time: 12.08s
simulation speed: 298087x

97.98% uptime between the two totems combined. So where was that lost minute of uptime? Could this be because the sim isn't set up to clip Searing totem and waits till it has expired before refreshing it according to it's place in the priority list?

Searing Totem is catching up to Magma but that's just due to the incredible amounts of Attack Power present in current raiding gear. Average of almost 3500 spellpower per refresh and I still have a lot of upgrades left out of ICC. Combine that with the GCD savings and Searing Totem starts to be an acceptable alternative in full BiS gear.

All that said, stop badmouthing EnhSim unless you have proof that it is doing something wrong.

pintor · 03/01/10, 5:04 PM

Yes, that seems to be the issue. Just having searing totem down near where magma is in the priority results in lost uptime because it can be several seconds before it gets refreshed, adding up to quite a bit of lost time.

Yellowsix · 03/01/10, 5:31 PM

I'm not bad-mouthing EnhSim, I'm simply reporting what I see. This is a pretty minor thing anyway -- every program has its bugs, Team Robot included, EnhSim included. My ultimate goal is to simply model Searing Totem correctly, and comparing to another simulator is a great way to confirm my results.

Here's your proof:

I put in the following priority in EnhSim:
FE
ST

That's it: just use fire elemental first, then searing totem. I did a 5-minute fight:

EnhSim version 1.9.7.1

................................................................................

...
[omitted for brevity]
...

searing totem uptime           47.15%
fire elemental uptime          40.00%

...
[omitted for brevity]
...

If only those two abilities are being used, searing totem should be near 60%, with the only reduction coming from the player's reaction time after the fire elemental despawns. Somewhere, 38 seconds of searing totem up-time are disappearing. This indicates either a bug in the up-time report calculation, or a flaw in the priority logic.

Rouncer · 03/01/10, 6:45 PM

Your sim doesn't seem to have racials implemented except for the proc ones, is there any way to manually add them in? My profile is currently showing as uncapped because it's missing the 5 expertise from Weapon Spec.

Also any time-table on the implementation of Reaction Time?
Black Magic is missing as a weapon enchant option.

DPS is also showing as much higher then expected but I think that may have a lot to do with the missing reaction time.