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Old 01/11/11, 6:17 AM   #196
Kaelhan
Glass Joe
 
Undead Warlock
 
Chants Eternels (EU)
Originally Posted by Zakalwe View Post
I've repurposed the first reply to the OP - it now contains simulations pertaining to the current PTR.
I see in the affliction sim
soul_fire,if=buff.soulburn.up
does it mean that you use soul fire for this spec ? With the new patch, these talents shouldn't be reached by affliction tree.

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Old 01/11/11, 6:28 AM   #197
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
Yes, instant soul fire is still the best usage of soul burn for affliction.

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Old 01/11/11, 6:31 AM   #198
Zedobel
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar (EU)
Originally Posted by Kaelhan View Post
I see in the affliction sim
soul_fire,if=buff.soulburn.up
does it mean that you use soul fire for this spec ? With the new patch, these talents shouldn't be reached by affliction tree.
Soul Fire still has greater DPET than Shadow Bolt and should still be used for Soul Fires until the boss reaches 25%. I would save one shard though, if you're specced into Soulburn: Seed of Corruption.

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Old 01/11/11, 8:23 AM   #199
Kyngston
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Icecrown
Originally Posted by Alduin View Post
I do not invent the bug. I understand how the DPS by hit or expertise is valued. The "0" lies within the hitcap, every stat under hit cap is a decrease in DPS. But thereby the scale factor needs to be "0" in the hitcap too and not 1.9 like shown.
If you need simcraft to tell you that your +hit scale factor beyond 17% is zero, then perhaps simcraft is not for you. Reporting zero tells me no information I did not already know. Therefore I prefer its current model of reporting the impact of decreased hit. Even that is marginally useful, because as long as hit > crit, haste, mastery, there's no reason any reasonably geared raider should be below 17%.

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Old 01/11/11, 9:31 AM   #200
7ang
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Warlock
 
Gilneas (EU)
Originally Posted by Alduin View Post
Let's try it with pictures.


The setup T11affli is at the hitcap (yes it is. checked it twice).
If you have less hit than hitcap => less DPS (it works reverted, maximum DPS at cap. That's what the sentence says).

Now what I am talking about is the huge red arrow pointing on the SCALE FACTOR. He says that every point of hit (after the cap) is worth 2.1.
The sentence says the scale factor shows the DPS loss per unit decrease. So not every point of hit after cap worth 2.1, every point loss costs 2.1.

Sorry for my awful english.

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Old 01/11/11, 9:40 AM   #201
thetrueavatar
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Warlock
 
Sargeras (EU)
For me knowing how much dps I will loose if I remove one hit point is important. If hit was 0 as you proposed then some could assume that they should reforge their current hit to get more haste. With this, if I'm hit capped with 17%, I know that trading 40 hit for 40 haste will be a dps lost because 62,444-87,1= -24,656 dps.
You can see the scale factor for hit as "how much does each hit point contribute to my current dps".
So this is an intented feature that is usefull.

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Old 01/11/11, 10:06 AM   #202
Jenova944
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Al'Akir (EU)
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet but at higher int and crit (and so pet crit) levels destruction efficiency hits a point where lifetap is completely removed from your rotation.. I've found this to be already achievable with the darkmoon card: volcano, especially if you save your soulburn+SFs a few seconds at the start of a fight for the trinket to proc and so increase the mana gained from the soulleach proc. what's even better is the CD for both the trinket and the spell line up so perfectly that with the high proc rate of the trinket you can use soulburn near instantly when it comes off CD to get the same damage and mana bonus as before.

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Old 01/11/11, 10:49 AM   #203
Innulock
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warlock
 
Draenor (EU)
Originally Posted by Alduin View Post
Therefore like said it should either be declared negative or zero but not in the middle of the other values. Or at the end. If read like it stays there than at 15.3% Hit I would have my scale factor for loss and not gain (the picture shows the value for having 16.99%).
Scalefactors are a linear approximation of the actual DPS function in the following way: (I'm taking your example of T11 BiS to have some numbers)

DPS(base_gear + extra_stat) = DPS(base_gear) + SCALE_FACTOR_stat x extra_stat

For haste, scalefactor = 1.5611, this gives
DPS(base_gear + haste_difference) = DPS(base_gear) + 1.5611x haste_difference

For hit, scalefactor = 2.1775, this gives
DPS(base_gear + hit_difference) = DPS(base_gear) + 2.1775 x hit_difference

Simcraft calculates these linear approximations by simulating, for each character, a profile with some (I believe the delta is 100 but i might be wrong) statpoints more than the base profile provided by the user. For hit it just calculates a profile with 100 points of hit less thant the base profile.

You claim the scalefactor of hit should be negative, but that would mean getting more hit would lower your dps. In the case of loosing dps by loosing hit, the hit_difference value in the formula would be negative, not the scalefactor. For hit-values higher than the hit cap, this linear approximation is obviously no longer valid, nor do we need it to be.

Last edited by Innulock : 01/11/11 at 11:16 AM.

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Old 01/11/11, 11:15 AM   #204
pRo-Micha
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Warlock
 
Black Dragonflight
As confirmed as PTR gets.

Here is the link to the post: An Analysis of Future Warlock Changes - Forums - World of Warcraft

Furthermore there will be more changes posted later, so let's not cry wolf and wait what they will offset the 15% haste loss with. I doubt they will just simply take it away and call it a day.

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Old 01/11/11, 11:55 AM   #205
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
Originally Posted by Alduin View Post
Sorry, but I have to correct this. I am not claiming about the notation or the meaning of the scale factors or the DPS provided or whatever. What I am claiming is that the contemporary scale factor values are not correct in themselves. I took hit for example because it -in my opinion- is obvious. Every point of hit over the hitcap is no DPS lose (like valuing them with -x) but it doesn't mean that by losing 1point (e.g. the affliction bis raid gear has 2points hit over cap) have to be valued by 2.1 (0.6int) each. That's simply wrong. If you spend this point in haste it is not a -2.1 + 0.6 (whatever), it is simply +0.6.
Let's make another example with haste. Belt of Arcane storms is listed BiS with an 20int/20haste gem and 20haste socket bonus. If we now calculate the value of gem+bonus we recognize that this is less than an 40int gem would offer. BUT if we change them it will result in a DPS loss (hastecap!) without the scale factors afterwards claim so.
The only thing I want, is that someone looks into the code and figures out why the scale factors do not correspond with what they claim to offer -especially around the hit/haste/crit/etc. cap.
The reason for what you're pointing out now (which is clearly very different from what you were claiming earlier) is explained in the very post you're quoting. You should try reading it.

Hint: The method used by the simulator to calculate scale factors does not involve using a stat delta of 1 or 2 - it's much larger.

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Old 01/11/11, 12:01 PM   #206
VoidStar
Piston Honda
 
Human Warlock
 
Draenor (EU)
Originally Posted by Alduin View Post
Let's make another example with haste. Belt of Arcane storms is listed BiS with an 20int/20haste gem and 20haste socket bonus. If we now calculate the value of gem+bonus we recognize that this is less than an 40int gem would offer. BUT if we change them it will result in a DPS loss (hastecap!) without the scale factors afterwards claim so.
I think it's a common misconception, one I've made myself, but it's worth noting that the scale factors do not claim to provide any information about what happens if you lose haste: if you check the screenshots posted earlier you'll notice that it says:

DPS gain per unit stat increase except for Hit/Expertise which represent DPS loss per unit stat decrease
So the scale factors presented do not tell you anything about what would happen to your dps if you lose 40 Haste, in just the same way that they do not tell you anything about the effect of gaining Hit (whether at the cap or not).

Last edited by VoidStar : 01/11/11 at 12:55 PM. Reason: More concisely made point

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Old 01/11/11, 12:13 PM   #207
Kaubel
Sledgehammer Emeritus
 
Kaubel's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
He's banned for the next 24 hours so everyone can stop replying to him now. And no, that's not just a suggestion.

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Old 01/11/11, 12:25 PM   #208
Caltiom
Von Kaiser
 
Human Priest
 
Eredar (EU)
First, the Scale Factors don't really claim anything, even tough it seems more and more a big failure to make them public to people who don't understand what they fully represent.

The Scale Factor Numbers are like Innulock explained a linear approximation. Very important to note that they are themself numeric approximations, and due to the numeric calculation of the dps function they can be quite imprecice.

Actually the Scale Factor's in simcraft represent partial differential quotients of the dps function.

Scale Factor ( Stat ) = ( Simulated_DPS( Reference Gear + Delta( Stat ) ) - Simulated_DPS( Reference Gear ) ) / Delta( Stat )

The default Deltas found in sc_scaling.cpp are 300 for (Int, SP, Haste, Mastery, Crit ) and -300 for Hit Rating.

This is what Scale Factors exactly represent in simcraft, nothing more and nothing less.

Keep in mind that there is always the possibility to run your own simulations to get numbers you desire. There are many options for the scale factor generation.

positive_scale_delta=1: Set's the Delta for Hit/Expertise from -300 to +300, exactly what Alduin wants.
center_scale_delta=1: Scale Factor( Stat ) = ( Simulated_DPS( Reference Gear + Delta( Stat) / 2 ) ) - Simulated_DPS(Reference Gera - Delta( Stat ) / 2 ) / Delta ( Stat )
five_point_stencil=1: similar to center_scale_delta with 4 neighbor points.
scale_delta_multiplier=X (X > 0): easy way to multiply all Deltas together.
scale_lag=1: option to generate scale factor for lag
scale_crit_rating=N: and similar for every other stat you can modify the Delta for a certain stat.

I hope this helps clear things a bit. The most important point that many people never understand (especially in the old simcraft warlock thread) is, that Scale Factors ( or linear approximation in general) are only "exact" in a neighborhood of the reference gear used in the simulation.
Another important point is that the dps function when changing haste rating - for certain specs like destruction - isn't really continuous anymore. This is also always a big big discussion, especially because many people don't understand that the scale factor's are calculated with such big Delta's.
Or the put it in another way: Don't overvalue the Scale Factors, in the end you always have to compare gear by running two different simulations, only this can really show which one is better.

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Old 01/11/11, 12:40 PM   #209
Mystearica
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Magtheridon
Originally Posted by Zakalwe View Post
I've repurposed the first reply to the OP - it now contains simulations pertaining to the current PTR.
In the 359 profile you're using, we're wearing 4pc by coincidence. Will the new 4pc (300% dmg instead of 100% crit) make Fel Flame ever worth casting in a normal rotation, or is it still a big PoS?

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Old 01/11/11, 1:28 PM   #210
 Zakalwe
The Chairmaker
 
Orc Warlock
 
Balnazzar
Originally Posted by Mystearica View Post
In the 359 profile you're using, we're wearing 4pc by coincidence. Will the new 4pc (300% dmg instead of 100% crit) make Fel Flame ever worth casting in a normal rotation, or is it still a big PoS?
It will make fel flame worth casting, but it doesn't look like it's a great set bonus at all - looks like it's worth about 120 dps for affliction, 140 dps for demonology, and 170 dps for destruction.

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