SimulationCraft for Warlocks (Cataclysm Edition) - Page 4

Kallikrates47 · 12/13/10, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

I've just updated the T11 profiles - I got them past the 2639 haste point, which definitely shows in the destro numbers, but they're still all using the same gear. In fact, the current gear profile is probably pretty optimal for destro, so affliction may catch up once we tweak the gear individually per profile. EDIT: Scratch that, I can't seem to squeeze any more DPS out of any of the profiles at this point. Feel free to prove me wrong

Taking this into account is it therefore the case that Haste remains the best secondary stat until 2639 is reached and only then is it worth going for crit/mastery?

It seems to me this is the case, Haste appears to be our least desirable stat when checking the stat weightings but that is only because in the profile 2639 has already been reached...

necro_potence · 12/13/10, 11:24 AM

A popular misconception is that being hit capped magically boosts your dps exponentially. That has never been true. The one and only reason* why in the past all simulations and players wanted to be hit capped was hit's scaling value, that was, on average, 3 to 5 times higher than the second highest scaling value. For example at one point in wotlk hit was worth 5.2, the best stat after that was spellpower at 1.8. This means that hit, per point, was much more valuable than anything else, and was therefore the 'stat to get'. Naturally, with hit having an hard cap, it was also the 'stat to get' only up to the point where it was actually providing something.
Now, do you see in the first post how hit is worth less than say intellect? Hit no longer trumps all other stats by miles, and that is why most aren't hit capped.
Just look at my previous post. For the scales:

Warlock_AffDrain_T11_372 Sta=0.0425 Int=3.0638 SP=2.4029 Hit=1.6689 Crit=1.1232 Haste=1.3069 Mastery=1.4186

(so, intellect and sp worth more than hit, crit haste and mastery worth not that much less than hit)

the bis configuration has 1729 hit rating, against an hit cap of 1742. There is no extra bonus to get the remaining hit rating to actually cap hit, the sacrifice of other stats would end up in a dps loss.

* you might mention that when thread was an issue and soulshatter was on a 5 min cooldown, risking a miss on that particular spell was extremely damaging, but that isn't really the point here.

Demi9OD · 12/13/10, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Kallikrates47

Taking this into account is it therefore the case that Haste remains the best secondary stat until 2639 is reached and only then is it worth going for crit/mastery?

It seems to me this is the case, Haste appears to be our least desirable stat when checking the stat weightings but that is only because in the profile 2639 has already been reached...

I've been running simcraft against my own gear as I've added new pieces over the weekend and reforged. Crit and haste flip flop around as the most desirable secondary stat, the value of one rising as I increase the amount of the other. I don't believe it is safe to make a blanket statement that haste is the best secondary stat until 2639 rating is reached. As it will take almost full epic gear to reach that point, it is best in the mean time to run your own stat weights and try to maintain a good balance of crit and haste.

Tickles Lightly · 12/13/10, 12:03 PM

For the destro numbers you have run...you're using shadowflame in your rotation. How are we supposed to use that exactly? hate to think of my threat if I was standing within 10 yards of a mob, I'm already pulling off of tanks in 85 reg's. And no, I'm not a nub I wait a few sec for the tank to get aggro. Is this one of those things that work out good for simcraft numbers but in practicality never gets used?

Darkdep · 12/13/10, 1:26 PM

In my real life experiences, I use Shadowflame whenever it's reasonably convenient. I'm not going to waste dps time running across long distances to pop it, but if I end up close to the boss/mob I will pop it on cooldown. It's worth casting but I don't believe it's worth excessive movement to use.

Ballsten · 12/13/10, 5:51 PM

Looking at the output for the two Demo profiles, they both seem to really struggle at refreshing Immolate with Hand of Gul'dan. The preraid profile has 21.6 HoG casts and 20.6 immo casts suggesting that it is almost never refreshed. The T11 profile which is just over the 50% haste mark has 21.9 HoG and 18.8 immo suggesting on average 3 refreshes.

I guess that this was due to HoG refresh window opening and closing during longer filler cast, either SB or SF, however I adjusted the action list to include just HoG and Immo.

actions+=/fel_armor
actions+=/dark_intent
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/hand_of_guldan
actions+=/immolate,if=(dot.immolate.remains<cast_time+tick_time|!ticking)&target.time_to_die>=4&miss_react

I also adjusted the T11 gear summary to have 2590 haste which is just over the 30% haste mark (no ISF buff with this action list).

My results were 22.4 HoG and 20.3 immo. Can anyone offer insight, or is this an issue with the simulator?

turturin · 12/13/10, 5:52 PM

Why are all the profiles run as undead? Unless I'm missing something shouldn't this be the lowest race for warlock PVE dps?

I'd like to figure out what the best race is from a pure dps potential standpoint, seems like it will be either Orc or Goblin. Really just wondering if this has been something considered already in the default profiles (meaning I'm missing something) or is just more of a "placeholder" setting at this point.

Maconi · 12/14/10, 3:53 AM

Originally Posted by turturin

Why are all the profiles run as undead? Unless I'm missing something shouldn't this be the lowest race for warlock PVE dps?

I'd like to figure out what the best race is from a pure dps potential standpoint, seems like it will be either Orc or Goblin. Really just wondering if this has been something considered already in the default profiles (meaning I'm missing something) or is just more of a "placeholder" setting at this point.

On that note I've noticed the talent links still haven't been updated (the WoW Armory has a different URL now and if you look here: Game - World of Warcraft you'll see at the bottom it says that the talent calculator isn't functional yet).

Although I haven't noticed a change in the sims at all. Do they even take into account your talent spec? Or is that just another possible "placeholder" as mentioned above?

• Zakalwe · 12/14/10, 5:39 AM

Originally Posted by Ballsten

Looking at the output for the two Demo profiles, they both seem to really struggle at refreshing Immolate with Hand of Gul'dan.

As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the demo profiles do not try to maximize the number of refreshes - instead, they focus on making sure immolate always benefits from the imp SF buff. I've found that to be a DPS gain - but if you think you can construct an action list that beats the default action list while also minimizing immolate recasts, please go ahead.

The reason you're seeing few refreshes with the action list you pasted is the "dot.immolate.remains<cast_time+tick_time" part. Replace the whole immolate line with "actions+=/immolate,if=!ticking" and you'll see a lot of refreshes. (In theory you might think you'd see 1.0 immolate casts, but you won't because it can still fall off during bloodlust.)

Originally Posted by turturin

Why are all the profiles run as undead? Unless I'm missing something shouldn't this be the lowest race for warlock PVE dps?

I picked undead specifically *because* it has no racial DPS benefit - that way we don't have gnomes coming here and complaining that the OP is showing pets doing 5% more damage than theirs do, or orcs coming and complaining that their mana pool is 5% smaller than the sim shows, etc etc.

Originally Posted by Maconi

On that note I've noticed the talent links still haven't been updated (the WoW Armory has a different URL now and if you look here: Game - World of Warcraft you'll see at the bottom it says that the talent calculator isn't functional yet).

Although I haven't noticed a change in the sims at all. Do they even take into account your talent spec? Or is that just another possible "placeholder" as mentioned above?

Of course we take the talent spec into account - we don't stop understanding the links just because Blizzard takes the talent calculator feature out of their armory. And their armory still contains the talents specified in the old format, so that's what our imported profiles include. If you want to actually look at the talent tree, just copy the URL and go to the Wowhead calculator and click Import. (And if you actually read the OP you'll notice I've already done just that and added a nice little "Spec" link next to each profile.)

kaib · 12/14/10, 8:39 AM

Does simcraft model Dark Intent uptime on your target? Went through the buffs but didn't find it (could be an issue of being blind, of course). Just from my dot-timer it seems that with immolate/corr/doom uptime isn't 100% but with BoA it's pretty much 100%. Survival hunter and kitty dps is kinda through the roof if you give them DI and keep it at three stacks, which makes me wonder if it's worth to go with agony instead of doom.

• Zakalwe · 12/14/10, 8:53 AM

Originally Posted by kaib

Does simcraft model Dark Intent uptime on your target? Went through the buffs but didn't find it (could be an issue of being blind, of course). Just from my dot-timer it seems that with immolate/corr/doom uptime isn't 100% but with BoA it's pretty much 100%. Survival hunter and kitty dps is kinda through the roof if you give them DI and keep it at three stacks, which makes me wonder if it's worth to go with agony instead of doom.

Simcraft can model dark intent uptime on all actors, but as there are no non-warlock actors in the sim I run for the OP, it's "faked" by assuming 100% uptime. Which is pretty realistic if your target is something like a resto druid or shadow priest.

Envý · 12/14/10, 9:18 AM

I think he meant the uptime of your DI stacks on your DI target not his stacks on you.

If I understood him right the question is if BoA instead of BoD could be an increase to the RaidDPS (while a loss to personal DPS) when you are able to keep 3 stacks on a target that gains a huge profit through it

kaib · 12/14/10, 11:18 AM

Yes, that's the point. A survival hunter's damage output is about 75% periodic. Keeping up 3 stacks on him is rather nuts. It's similar for cats, they are mostly doing dot damage as well.

• Zakalwe · 12/14/10, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by Envý

I think he meant the uptime of your DI stacks on your DI target not his stacks on you.

If I understood him right the question is if BoA instead of BoD could be an increase to the RaidDPS (while a loss to personal DPS) when you are able to keep 3 stacks on a target that gains a huge profit through it

Like I said, the sim can model DI uptime on all targets. The only problem is that our hunter and feral druid modules are among the least stable/correct ones, so your results for those particular examples may not reflect reality.

If the question is *how* to make the sim do this, the option you're looking for is dark_intent_target. To test the effect on a shadow priest, you might do something like this:

Priest_Shadow_PreRaid.simc name=Priest_WithDI
Priest_Shadow_PreRaid.simc name=Priest_NoDI
Warlock_Affliction_PreRaid.simc dark_intent_target=Priest_WithDI

Xayide · 12/14/10, 1:35 PM

Just out of curiosity, is there any reason HoG's damage is depicted in the charts as dark green while all other sources of Shadow damage are purple or is it a minor bug?