Demonology in Cataclysm (4.3 Release) - Page 15

krilz · 07/29/11, 7:16 AM

From the first post:

Spell priority:

Metamorphosis
Demon Soul (Felguard)
Immolate
Hand of Gul'dan
Demon Soul (Felhunter)
Bane of Doom
Immolation Aura
Corruption
Shadowflame
Incinerate (Molten Core)
Soul Fire (Decimation)
Shadow Bolt

What I'm curious about is where does Bane of Agony fit in? There are some times when Bane of Agony is preferred (like adds). Another question is: How many ticks are needed on BoD to outweigh the damage from BoA?

Burberri · 07/29/11, 1:16 PM

Originally Posted by krilz

From the first post:

What I'm curious about is where does Bane of Agony fit in? There are some times when Bane of Agony is preferred (like adds). Another question is: How many ticks are needed on BoD to outweigh the damage from BoA?

This is an action list is only for single target.

You would never use Agony over Doom in single target as demo. This is because half your BoD's are moonwell+meta+DS juiced. So it could only possibly come during the other 1/2 of your BoDs. Then a situation would need to exist where you have something like 80%+ haste. So basically, only during Essence of the Red, or flying for alysrazor.

BoA will beat out BoD if time to die is less than 15 seconds, however, Shadowbolt will do more damage than BoA in that time frame so you would ignore casting a Bane.

Lathdari · 07/29/11, 6:18 PM

There is a question about where BoA fits in on multiple targets though, which I don't think we've covered. Jmickey touched on multi-dotting in the top post, and then Manguadi kindly gave us some numbers, but both only considered Immolate and Corruption.

Originally Posted by Jmickey

In a large AoE situation, where there are no issues of threat or possible group wipage, then channelling Hellfire, Felguard Felstorm, Infernal, Shadowflame and Immolation Aura in Meta will all provide a large amount of AoE damage.

For more controlled multiple target damage, tab targeting non-cc'd mobs with Immolate and Corruption and then proceeding with a single target rotation on each mob until it is dead will be the most optimal way of dealing damage.

Originally Posted by manguadi

21231 / 2466 = 8.6 or 9 targets and hellfire is better than immolate

9422 / 2466 = 3.8 or 4 targets and hellfire is better than corruption

The DPET of BoA is obviously better than Corruption. A crude calculation from my own numbers suggests that multi-dotting BoA will beat Hellfire with fewer than 6 opponents.

Of course, the issue here is time to die. In many situations with multiple opponents, they will die quite quickly, and if BoA doesn't tick for its full 24s duration, much of the benefit will be lost. (E.g. you'll want to use Hellfire against the Fragments of Rhyolith, even though there are only 5 of them.) Nevertheless, there are some situations (e.g. Shannox) where there are multiple opponents who are going to live for well over 24s, in which case BoD on one and BoA on the others would appear to give optimal DPS.

darlokdd · 08/03/11, 3:14 AM

Is it worth waiting for the 10th stack on [Necromantic Focus] before casting Moonwell Chalice/Metamorphosis at the beginning of a boss fight? In a "real" fight the pre-pot may already have expired before the 10th stack since the timing of tank calling out the countdown for the pull and actual start of DPSing might be 3-5s (it doesn't always work perfectly). In addition the Lightweave Embroidery and Power Torrent Procs should be considered. This might get tricky in light of Lathdari's optimizations with an early Doomguard directly after Moonwell/Chalice at the beginning of a fight because (according to my limited knowledge) the Doomguard DPS scales both with (snapshots of) Mastery and Int. I am not sure how to sim this. This is actually mentioned above by Lathdari but without hard numbers.

Naforce · 08/03/11, 8:21 AM

Originally Posted by darlokdd

Is it worth waiting for the 10th stack on [Necromantic Focus] before casting Moonwell Chalice/Metamorphosis at the beginning of a boss fight? In a "real" fight the pre-pot may already have expired before the 10th stack since the timing of tank calling out the countdown for the pull and actual start of DPSing might be 3-5s (it doesn't always work perfectly). In addition the Lightweave Embroidery and Power Torrent Procs should be considered. This might get tricky in light of Lathdari's optimizations with an early Doomguard directly after Moonwell/Chalice at the beginning of a fight because (according to my limited knowledge) the Doomguard DPS scales both with (snapshots of) Mastery and Int. I am not sure how to sim this. This is actually mentioned above by Lathdari but without hard numbers.

I wait for it and I get the 10th stack, use meta and immo aura then doomguard and usually have a few seconds to spare on my shortest proc. I start with boa->corr->immo though, just to get stacks.

Eph · 08/03/11, 12:48 PM

The idea is that you only Soulburn out a Felhunter. All Felguards will be slow summoned, that's the reason for the 5 seconds before using CDs. From my experience, this rotation is viable on all the bosses though it will require some planning and some consideration for how you want to use the Felguard for AOE portions.

randa · 08/04/11, 2:34 AM

|I am using SoulBurn for Felhunter only. But my question is if we have already used all soulshards for example in the long fight, will it be beneficial to summon felhunter during meta and waste 5 seconds (4th felhunter summoning) or should we wait for meta to end and then summon felhunter.

I have corrected this macro

#showtooltip [pet:Felguard] Summon Felhunter; Summon Felguard
/cast [pet:Felguard] Soulburn
/cast [pet:Felguard] Summon Felhunter
/cast [pet:Felhunter] Summon Felguard
/cast [nopet] Summon Felguard
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();

Lathdari · 08/04/11, 6:10 AM

Originally Posted by randa

|I am using SoulBurn for Felhunter only. But my question is if we have already used all soulshards for example in the long fight, will it be beneficial to summon felhunter during meta and waste 5 seconds (4th felhunter summoning) or should we wait for meta to end and then summon felhunter.

Well, that's easy to test. For a 600s fight, the average dps with the rotation I previously gave sims at 34448 (which, as expected, is less than for a 450s fight). Changing the felguard line to actions+=/summon_felhunter,if=(buff.soulburn.up&!pet.felguard.dot.felstorm.ticking)|(pet.felgua rd.active&buff.metamorphosis.down) will sim waiting for meta to end once we run out of shards. That gives a dps of 34347, a small loss. The issue I think is (a) we're only missing out on SB spam by the hard cast, so the loss of dps is less than you might think and (b) we really want the felhunter out while we have the moonwell chalice buff.

Of course, it doesn't come up very often. Alysrazor and Ragnaros are the only bosses likely to go on long enough for you to run out of shards (assuming you pre-shard for the first demon swap), and they both have adds for you to use drain soul. I think the only time it could be an issue is if you're assigned to air duty on Alysrazor.

BoJlJloC · 08/04/11, 6:54 AM

Considering, that the main damage boost on Ragnaros is needed in phases 3-4, when most of time boss has <35% HP, how do you think, [Sorrowsong] worth it ?

Lathdari · 08/04/11, 6:58 AM

Originally Posted by darlokdd

Is it worth waiting for the 10th stack on [Necromantic Focus] before casting Moonwell Chalice/Metamorphosis at the beginning of a boss fight? In a "real" fight the pre-pot may already have expired before the 10th stack since the timing of tank calling out the countdown for the pull and actual start of DPSing might be 3-5s (it doesn't always work perfectly). In addition the Lightweave Embroidery and Power Torrent Procs should be considered. This might get tricky in light of Lathdari's optimizations with an early Doomguard directly after Moonwell/Chalice at the beginning of a fight because (according to my limited knowledge) the Doomguard DPS scales both with (snapshots of) Mastery and Int. I am not sure how to sim this. This is actually mentioned above by Lathdari but without hard numbers.

You're right that the Doomguard snapshots both mastery and int. Optimitising his use is tricky, and it's going to be race and gear dependent (are you an orc? are you a tailor? do you have the necromantic focus?). The Doomguard makes such a huge contribution to our overall dps that it's definitely worth making an effort to get as many mastery and int buffs up as possible at the time of the summon. On the simmed fights that means an early summon, because lightweave and power torrent tend both to proc at some point during the first few seconds, plus you have the advantage of the pre-pot, and you can make sure that you use the Moonwell Chalice and Blood Fury.

Ideally you would wait for 10 stacks of necromantic focus before summoning the DG, but (as Eph noted upthread) this gives a dps loss on the sims, as you tend to lose blood fury and the pre-pot. Of course, if you're not an orc, you don't have to worry about blood fury, only the pre-pot, but that still might not give you time to gain 10 stacks.

If we're using an early DG summon, we're committed to using the Moonwell Chalice early - certainly we will want this buff up for the DG. So your suggestion of waiting for 10 stacks of Necromantic Focus before using meta&chalice doesn't fit with this rotation. I've tried running the sim just inserting buff.necromantic_focus.stack=10 in the relevant places, but that gives a huge loss of dps, because it throws everything else out. It makes a mess of the demon swapping too, because we've started with the felguard out, and pre-sharded ready to summon the felhunter, but if we delay using the CDs then we waste the soul shard and have too much felguard up-time.

Of course, in a real fight (other than Baleroc), you probably won't want to summon the DG at the start of the fight, so this all becomes moot, and we get into all sorts of tricky issues about how to time your CDs in relation to burn phases. It's a pig to sim, because there are a large number of possible synergies which may or may not give a bonus, separately or taken in some combination. Plus, as I said, it depends crucially on what CDs you actually have, which is why I haven't attempted to give any hard numbers.

Edit: This post has been somewhat superseded by the fact that the Necromantic Focus is now simming as less good than the Darkmoon Card: Volcano, so it is unlikely that anyone will be using it.

angaroth · 08/04/11, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by BoJlJloC

Considering, that the main damage boost on Ragnaros is needed in phases 3-4, when most of time boss has <35% HP, how do you think, [Sorrowsong] worth it ?

Given that the kids from Paragon were farming it the answer is a definite 'probably'.

• Zakalwe · 08/04/11, 11:12 AM

Reading their strategy, they're saying the critical DPS burn is a 141-second period in p3, starting at 38% and ending at 10%. Feeding these conditions to simcraft, Sorrowsong is actually not better than DMC:Volcano or Chalice.

angaroth · 08/04/11, 11:25 AM

Is it possible that the movement and add conditions aren't being set accurately in SC? What is a difference between the two?

AmPriS · 08/04/11, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

Reading their strategy, they're saying the critical DPS burn is a 141-second period in p3, starting at 38% and ending at 10%. Feeding these conditions to simcraft, Sorrowsong is actually not better than DMC:Volcano or Chalice.

When Rag gets to 10 percent, in phase 4 he goes back to 50 percent or so health, giving you another large amount of time where sorrowsong is available.

• Zakalwe · 08/04/11, 9:51 PM

Originally Posted by AmPriS

When Rag gets to 10 percent, in phase 4 he goes back to 50 percent or so health, giving you another large amount of time where sorrowsong is available.

Depending on how quickly the health percentages go by in various stages (and I'm assuming they go by quicker in P4 than in any other phase), that actually *reduces* the percentage of time he's below 35%.

But it doesn't matter, the thesis is that the only truly important DPS race is those 141 seconds in P3.