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03/02/11, 5:54 PM
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#106
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King Hippo
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Originally Posted by VoidStar
Now, your raid might be better served by someone else going demo, or someone else bringing an elemental shaman or many other options that only you can know or decide about.
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I wanted to highlight this before we go further into "what should my raid do" land, but this is all very subjective and doesn't add a lot to to the discussion. Raids are unique, figure out your own buff situation. And heaven forbid you have to do a little math along the way (Hint: logs are useful, if your raid isn't full of the perfect players that simcraft simulates).
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03/03/11, 4:22 PM
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#107
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by crimzoneyed
Hmm the Succubus is the best single target dps, but the demon soul CD should be used on the felguard, this make me kinda confused, should i start the fight with felguard out+demon soul+isoul burn out the succubus, then next time it is off CD then what?
Would be nice if someone could explain how to use the demon soul on boss fights were you should be using a succubus.
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What you do is, you start the fight with a felguard out. Pop your potion, use soulburn, then start soul harvesting. You pop all your cds, pop demon soul, use felstorm, then before the 15 seconds is up, you get out a succubus. When Demon Soul is coming back up, you soulburn out a felguard and cast Demon soul again. The only problem with this is that switching your succubus for a felguard for 45 seconds, until your next soulburn is up, might not be worth the boost from using Demon Soul (Felguard). It would be nice if someone could do some testing for it. Obviously on fights like Heroic Magmaw, using demon soul felguard would be ideal because of the 100% boost. But other then those kind of gimmick fights, I don't know what is the best to do.
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03/03/11, 4:25 PM
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#108
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Glass Joe
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I still don't understand why it lists Demon Soul (Imp) as well. Does this mean you start of with a Fel gaurd, switch to succubus, and then switch to Imp for the second Demon Soul?
Last edited by Play_Peter_Griffin : 03/03/11 at 5:09 PM.
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03/03/11, 7:35 PM
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#109
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Glass Joe
Worgen Warlock
Outland (EU)
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The whole pet swaping idea seems like a dps increase, but only once at the start of the fight like someone already noted. The biggest annoyance with this concept is when you do it during combat you lose Soul Link and have you recast it. I don't know if it's a bug or not, cause if you do it out of combat you still have it after you swap pets, but it sure is frustrating.
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03/03/11, 11:19 PM
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#110
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<3 Kitty
Blood Elf Warlock
Saurfang
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Originally Posted by Play_Peter_Griffin
I still don't understand why it lists Demon Soul (Imp) as well. Does this mean you start of with a Fel gaurd, switch to succubus, and then switch to Imp for the second Demon Soul?
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Typo. Was meant to be succubus.
If you were to do any pet swapping I believe starting with felguard and switching to Succubus after Demon Soul/Fel Storm would be the way to go about it.
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03/04/11, 11:33 AM
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#111
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Glass Joe
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Given that we are a more cooldown oriented spec than the other warlock specs; are on use professions more valuable to us?
Earlier discussions have touched on this, that there is a multiplicative effect on stacking cooldowns, so much so that 2 minute items/abilities used can have a greater effect on dps than what thier simple stat averages equate to.
For example, I'm an orc warlock and I get a 585 boost in spellpower on that all-important 2 minute cooldown that we've got going. On a 2 minute cooldown that averages to a 73 spellpower boost. I would argue that I'm getting more out of the spellpower boost than its simple average... Specifically, I'd think I'd be getting at least around 30% more damage effect from the ability since I'm using it during cooldown time (demon soul from FG or succubus, and metamorphosis). That would equate to an effective spellpower boost of 760 ((585*.3)+585) and an average benefit more like 95 total spellpower with even more effect added for mastery.
I guess the question boils down to whether getting a guaranteed 480 haste or int boost at that critical cooldown time is more valuable than a straight +80 int provided by a different profession? This has broader implications for engineering; the tinker would coordinate with our cooldowns meaning that your getting more out of that +int boost than the straight +80 average. Thus making engineering clearly our second best profession, and it also boosts the value of herbalism.
Using the math above +480 haste for 20 seconds every 2 minutes would actually provide us with around 104 effective haste instead of 80. The math for the engineering tinker is more complicated because its on a 1 min cooldown, but it averages to ~92 +int instead of +80((1min =+80 plus 1min=+104)/2). Again leaving out mastery effects for simplicity... An average of +92 int clearly makes engineering our second best profession without the added mastery benefit. The herbalism haste probably doesnt make up the difference from a +80 int profession, but its definately more effective than the OP would indicate..
Is my math right? Should the OP reflect eng as clearly our second best profession choice because of this?
P.S. This probably means some "on use" trinkets are more valuable to demon warlocks than we'd give them credit for too... and it also probably means, mastery is more valuable as a stat, the more "on use" abilities you have.
Last edited by darqueseid : 03/04/11 at 2:34 PM.
Reason: updated correct spellpower for orc racial, per comment
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03/04/11, 12:24 PM
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#112
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Von Kaiser
Gnome Warlock
Dalaran (EU)
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Originally Posted by darqueseid
I'm an orc warlock and I get a 173 boost in spellpower on that all-important 2 minute cooldown
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Blood Fury seems to give 585 spell power, not 173.
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03/05/11, 4:32 AM
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#113
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Glass Joe
Undead Warlock
Ткач Смерти (EU)
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Originally Posted by darqueseid
Given that we are a more cooldown oriented spec than the other warlock specs; are on use professions more valuable to us?
Earlier discussions have touched on this, that there is a multiplicative effect on stacking cooldowns, so much so that 2 minute items/abilities used can have a greater effect on dps than what thier simple stat averages equate to.
For example, I'm an orc warlock and I get a 585 boost in spellpower on that all-important 2 minute cooldown that we've got going. On a 2 minute cooldown that averages to a 73 spellpower boost. I would argue that I'm getting more out of the spellpower boost than its simple average... Specifically, I'd think I'd be getting at least around 30% more damage effect from the ability since I'm using it during cooldown time (demon soul from FG or succubus, and metamorphosis). That would equate to an effective spellpower boost of 760 ((585*.3)+585) and an average benefit more like 95 total spellpower with even more effect added for mastery.
I guess the question boils down to whether getting a guaranteed 480 haste or int boost at that critical cooldown time is more valuable than a straight +80 int provided by a different profession? This has broader implications for engineering; the tinker would coordinate with our cooldowns meaning that your getting more out of that +int boost than the straight +80 average. Thus making engineering clearly our second best profession, and it also boosts the value of herbalism.
Using the math above +480 haste for 20 seconds every 2 minutes would actually provide us with around 104 effective haste instead of 80. The math for the engineering tinker is more complicated because its on a 1 min cooldown, but it averages to ~92 +int instead of +80((1min =+80 plus 1min=+104)/2). Again leaving out mastery effects for simplicity... An average of +92 int clearly makes engineering our second best profession without the added mastery benefit. The herbalism haste probably doesnt make up the difference from a +80 int profession, but its definately more effective than the OP would indicate..
Is my math right? Should the OP reflect eng as clearly our second best profession choice because of this?
P.S. This probably means some "on use" trinkets are more valuable to demon warlocks than we'd give them credit for too... and it also probably means, mastery is more valuable as a stat, the more "on use" abilities you have.
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While calculating your "new average SP boost" do you take into account that you do NOT have the perfect uptime on your activated buffs (the one you would have if you just use them on cooldown), because you will have to wait for metamorphosis to come off cooldown (It could be the other way around, and meta will come off cd so much earlier, that you will not have the full duration of meta coincide with your cooldowns). For new uptime you would probably want to edit the priority list in simcraft to only use your bloodfury, jewelry trinket and whatever else only while in metamorphosis.
PS. 104 effective haste is still "less" than 80 int, so even with that herbalism is nowhere near "top profession".
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03/07/11, 1:35 PM
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#114
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by PainfulDeath
While calculating your "new average SP boost" do you take into account that you do NOT have the perfect uptime on your activated buffs (the one you would have if you just use them on cooldown), because you will have to wait for metamorphosis to come off cooldown (It could be the other way around, and meta will come off cd so much earlier, that you will not have the full duration of meta coincide with your cooldowns). For new uptime you would probably want to edit the priority list in simcraft to only use your bloodfury, jewelry trinket and whatever else only while in metamorphosis.
PS. 104 effective haste is still "less" than 80 int, so even with that herbalism is nowhere near "top profession".
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I find that often, Meta is up at the 2 minute mark if your using Shadow Bolt or incenerate as your fillers.
However if its not, your right you are losing some effectiveness of your on use items, but thats difficult to quantify.
What your really talking about here is the cooldown doesn't refresh in time. If meta refreshes at 15 seconds before your cooldowns do, your golden, because you have glyphed meta, and none of the use CDS last longer than 20seconds. Its extremely rare that I see meta refresh at 30 seconds before the 2 minute CDS, but when it does happen, I suspect its still better to wait 15 to use the CDS together.
The discussions on this subject that I have read have said that you should wait and use the CDs when the meta is available if its going to be up in a reasonable amount of time to when your CDS are on. Like around 15 seconds. but if its going to be longer you should just pop your cooldowns when they refresh. We really digress on this though, I think this debate about the optimal Meta use is still ongoing...
More to your point, after the 2 minute mark, your only getting the 10% damage boost from demon soul if your unlucky. Accounting for what your saying, you'd get 30% from the first two minutes, 20% in a 4 minute fight, and 16.66% added benefit in a 6 minute fight (averaged percent increases). That would be minimum values, assuming your completely unlucky with the Meta refresh RNG, but for me its rare that they're only up together at the beginning. Usually they will hit together at least twice in a 6 minute fight. The numbers I posted are Ideal numbers, numbers for a fight where you have meta up every 2 minutes. It doesnt change the statement that we still have more effect from on use items, it just means that the longer the fight, the less additional effect we get.
Don't forget though, my numbers leave out mastery, so our actual percentages are going to be higher.
Just to clarify, I think the OP should be updated to say engineering is the 2nd best profession for warlocks because we get more effect out of its on-use int boost. And herbalism's numbers could be updated, to show its more effective for us, your right its not best, but its not just a straight +80 haste for us either. I never stated that either should be considered our top profession. Tailoring is clearly the best at the moment, by a clear margin.
P.S. The engineering tinker is on a 1 minute CD, meaning if your completely unlucky on meta reductions from sb or incinerate, those two cds would still be together.
Last edited by darqueseid : 03/07/11 at 1:54 PM.
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03/08/11, 3:40 AM
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#115
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Glass Joe
Undead Warlock
Ткач Смерти (EU)
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Originally Posted by darqueseid
Just to clarify, I think the OP should be updated to say engineering is the 2nd best profession for warlocks because we get more effect out of its on-use int boost.
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I don't think that's such a great idea. Between Engineering and Jewelcrafting (it's not up to any debate, that those 2 are the candidates for the second best profession for locks) JC seems like a better profession even more if you apply your own logic.
Engineering bonuses include BiS 359 head and a dps int cooldown (also a nitro-boost/plasma shield, but let's forget about those for now), while JC bonuses include 81int and BiS 372 trinket, which happens to be one of the best "dps cooldowns" for locks there is (here, i am using data from simcraft thread for locks, it could be inaccurate, but i found it to be reasonable within my experience). "Added cooldown benefit" is much better for the "1485sp for 20sec" proc, than it is for the "480int for 10sec" proc, that seems pretty obvious.
One would say "I can use engeneering trinket AND some other trinket that is not so much worse than figurine and get the same good cooldown benefit from that trinket", but no, you can't, because Synapse Springs trigger "on_use_trinket" cooldown. Those 20 seconds make it nearly impossible to align any good trinket effect AND Springs during one meta (your cooldowns would need to align perfectly, or you would need to have drastically less uptime on them). Ofcourse you cannot always mesure the benefit of having a BiS head item vs some other item, that varies with each player's loot-situation.
To conclude: I concur that as a spec, that revolves around metamorphosis, on use effects are a bit stronger for us, than just plain "average over time" number, but it's up to personal preference and your gear setup, whether you would want to use Engineering or JC.
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More to your point, after the 2 minute mark, your only getting the 10% damage boost from demon soul if your unlucky.
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That sounds a bit quirky to me. Succubus' demon soul is nowhere near "10% damage boost", while felguard's could be around that number, but we don't get to use felguard all that often in current content.
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03/08/11, 2:21 PM
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#116
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Glass Joe
Goblin Warlock
Sen'jin (EU)
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I got a question regarding pet swapping in combat.
As the demon soul effect from the Felguard is a bigger benefit than the one from the Succubus we tend to start the fight with Felpup out, popping meta, cd's and demon soul and soulburn out the Succubus.
My question now is:
Is it worth to start the fight with the Felguard's Felstorm and after that switch to the Succi? Because as far as I observed, in-combat pet switching makes you loose your Soullink, which results in recasting it. So you sacrifice one GCD for Felstorm.
The alternative is to pop meta and demon soul and soulburn the Succubus before combat starts. You would loose Felstorm but gain one GCD.
So what's the most ideal way of switching from Felpup to Succubus (assuming you want the Felguards demon soul)? In-combat or pre-combat? Does the use of Felstorm compensate the loss for one GCD?
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03/09/11, 12:07 PM
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#117
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Glass Joe
Human Warlock
Hellfire (EU)
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Originally Posted by PainfulDeath
but let's forget about those for now), while JC bonuses include 81int and BiS 372 trinket, which happens to be one of the best "dps cooldowns" for locks there is .
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Would you mind clarifying what trinket you are describing that is JC only, especially one that is heroic ilevelled. Could you link to the object and perhaps the pattern from which it is obtained? As a demo lock only using the Gems, yet doing heroic content I would be very interested in getting it.
Last edited by necrontyr91 : 03/09/11 at 12:14 PM.
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03/09/11, 12:29 PM
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#118
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Glass Joe
Orc Warlock
Aman'Thul (EU)
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03/09/11, 2:35 PM
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#119
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King Hippo
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Originally Posted by Sm00thie
I got a question regarding pet swapping in combat.
As the demon soul effect from the Felguard is a bigger benefit than the one from the Succubus we tend to start the fight with Felpup out, popping meta, cd's and demon soul and soulburn out the Succubus.
My question now is:
Is it worth to start the fight with the Felguard's Felstorm and after that switch to the Succi? Because as far as I observed, in-combat pet switching makes you loose your Soullink, which results in recasting it. So you sacrifice one GCD for Felstorm.
The alternative is to pop meta and demon soul and soulburn the Succubus before combat starts. You would loose Felstorm but gain one GCD.
So what's the most ideal way of switching from Felpup to Succubus (assuming you want the Felguards demon soul)? In-combat or pre-combat? Does the use of Felstorm compensate the loss for one GCD?
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I think what gets missed a lot in these discussions is the fact that we can carry two specs, should be up to speed on two specs because versatility rocks, and that Demo is, more times than not, not the optimal spec for an encounter. Single target/gearcheck? Probably Destro for max DPS. Two/three target? The same or Affliction, depending on whether you like to juggle dots or just toss BoH. Add fight? Easy, Demo.
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03/09/11, 3:15 PM
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#120
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Glass Joe
Undead Warlock
Ткач Смерти (EU)
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Originally Posted by Meaning
I think what gets missed a lot in these discussions is the fact that we can carry two specs, should be up to speed on two specs because versatility rocks, and that Demo is, more times than not, not the optimal spec for an encounter. Single target/gearcheck? Probably Destro for max DPS. Two/three target? The same or Affliction, depending on whether you like to juggle dots or just toss BoH. Add fight? Easy, Demo.
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While this probably is true, sometimes speccing out of Demo is not an option. (for example I raid 10-man lately and our setup doesn't include an elemental shaman or even a mage) So min-maxing your Demo output in most fights is a valid discussion, even with the dualspec option =)
Originally Posted by necrontyr91
Would you mind clarifying what trinket you are describing that is JC only, especially one that is heroic ilevelled. Could you link to the object and perhaps the pattern from which it is obtained? As a demo lock only using the Gems, yet doing heroic content I would be very interested in getting it.
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It was answered by Nokwar already, just to clarify, by "372 BiS" I mean "Best in Slot with all of the gear available, including 372 iLvl pieces". If you are a Jewelcrafter there is practically no reason why you'd want to skip figurine, except maybe some dire need of hit.
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So what's the most ideal way of switching from Felpup to Succubus (assuming you want the Felguards demon soul)? In-combat or pre-combat? Does the use of Felstorm compensate the loss for one GCD?
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Swapping felguard precombat equals at the very least 3 seconds lost on the demon soul uptime, probably more. It feels much better for me to let him spin, while I get max uptime of the buff I actually bothered to summon him for.
But that's pure feeling. The math is easy though, if "2 gcds (of fillers probably, since both casting succubus and sould link comes at around the time you are done with DoTing, HoGing and SFing anyway) > 3-5 seconds of Demon soul buff + Felstorm - ~7 seconds of succubus' dps" holds, then you should swap them before fight, otherwise just stick to the felguard and his storm.
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