 |
02/24/11, 3:55 AM
|
#166
|
|
Piston Honda
Human Warlock
Draenor (EU)
|
Well, you also have to consider the following:
The Initial damage of Shadowflame is Shadow damage (not boosted) but the DoT is Fire damage (boosted).
Shadowburn is shadow damage.
A reasonable proportion of damage also comes directly from the Imp's Firebolt. The Imp scales with our crit, but I suspect not with our fire boosting effects. I suspect that the Infernal's melee and immolation aura and Ebon Imp's melee will scale with our crit (if they scale at all) but are also unlikely to do so with our Fire damage boosting effects.
And to clarify:
Chaos Bolt does not "count as" fire damage: it is Fire damage.
Fel Flame is Shadowflame damage so is boosted by fire damage boosting effects.
The scale factors are a useful tool but can only be directly applied to the situation from which they were generated. Especially when they're as close together as Mastery and Crit are currently simmed (Crit is <10% ahead in the 372 profile) it's something you could easily change in the act of gearing for it.
|
|
|
|
|
02/24/11, 4:05 AM
|
#167
|
|
The Chairmaker
|
Yep, the big thing you're missing the imp's firebolt damage, which accounts for about 17% of your total DPS and is not affected by mastery.
|
|
|
|
|
03/07/11, 7:20 PM
|
#168
|
|
Glass Joe
Gnome Warlock
Turalyon (EU)
|
While working on my debuff tracking addon, I wanted to check how did haste and Fel Flame refreshing Immolate worked. I made a little script which compared expiration time on immolate both before and after refresh, and printed the difference in the chat along with the timestamp. I casted fel flame with 2-5 sec left on the Immolate debuff to avoid losing extra seconds due to debuff not being able to be extended beyond certain time (base dot duration including hasted extra ticks and/or glyph).
I was at 0 haste on the image to the left, some haste and Dark Intent on the second and my full pve gear + dark intent on the right
 
The script sometimes doesn't register the time properly and shows abnormal number of ticks gained, which is not correct, but the timestamps surely are.
On the image to the left you can see me keeping Immolate up for 243+ seconds with 30 casts of Fel Flame which translates into average 8.1 sec per cast or 2.7 ticks per cast.
With 906 haste + dark intent on the second image I had 29 casts during 223 seconds which is 7.69 sec per cast or (at 2.801 sec per tick) 2.75 ticks average.
At 2.531 sec time between ticks 29 casts translated into over 219 seconds of immolate uptime, or 7.55 sec per cast (2.98 ticks per cast).
Of course, numbers like 2.03 or 1.96 ticks actually get rounded to 2 ticks, with the debuff expiration matching the very last of them. I omitted the verbose output to save space).
I tried using demonology with felguard demon soul, got the following results:
The first two refreshes are those I could manage to cast while demon soul was still up. They both gave 3 ticks. Third refresh was already after demon soul expired. The extra time (6.29 seconds) resembles replacing 3x2.267s ticks (demon soul) with 2.607 ones and appending 2 more ticks to the end: 5*2,607-3*2,267=6,234 . The rest of refreshes gave 3 ticks.
I'm not sure what's the exact algorithm the server uses to decide how many ticks to append to the end of your dot. Any thoughts on why do I get 3 tick refreshes even with 0 haste (9 extra seconds)? I wonder if 4-tick extension can be earned on higher gear levels or under heroism, was unable to convince a shaman to help me at this time.
EDIT: allright, got a shaman to help me. With wrath of air totem and heroism I've been able to get 4-tick immolate extension, while in demonology spec with demon soul: felguard. screenie here:
first 2 refreshes are during demon soul+heroism, 3 and 4 during remaining heroism and the rest after both expired.
Last edited by nponoBegHuk : 03/07/11 at 8:11 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
03/08/11, 11:11 PM
|
#169
|
|
Glass Joe
|
I'm kind of scratching my head on some of the aspects of our priority.
Usually i start a fight with Soulfire (precast) immolate-conflag-corruption-BoD-Chaos bolt- (demon soul) Incinerate-incinerate-incinerate and then hardcast another soulfire with 4-5 seconds left on the buff (to compensate for travel time).
Im not sure if i'm overestimating the importance of ISF though, as it seems like trying to micromanage it and keep it up 100% of the time isnt optimizing my dps. with my gear (354 ilvl) im doing around15-16k on the dummy (self buffed, food buff) but every now and again i'll eek out a consistant 17k and cant figure out where its comming from.
Is it best to try and keep ISF up all the time, or is it okay to let it drop off for a few seconds in order to make sure you get off conflag as soon as its CD is over, or refresh Immolate before it expires.
|
|
|
|
|
03/09/11, 10:29 AM
|
#170
|
|
Glass Joe
Worgen Warlock
Skullcrusher (EU)
|
Originally Posted by Jmickey
Improved Soul Fire
...
This change doesn't have a big effect on how we will now handle ISF compared to how we did in 4.0.3, the best way to handle this talent is still to line up your Soul Fire to land on the target just as the old ISF ends
|
I've done some testing on a dummy, no buffs, trinkets off. I see, that dots do damage not from the buffs on target/player when they tick, but from what buffs were active when they were casted.
Results were consistent:
Corruption ticks:
1354 dmg when cast without ISF, no change when I got ISF up without recasting corr.
1462 dmg when cast with ISF up, no matter if the buff got off while corruption was on
Immolate ticks:
2844 same as above
3072 same as above
So my question is
The scenario: ISF got ~3 seconds left. Immolate got ~1 second and corruption is either off or have about 1 second letf as well. You just finished casting Incinerate or whatever.
Wouldn't it be better to refresh Immolate and corruption and thereby letting them tick with full dmg (as ISF was up when when they were cast) while hardcasting SoulFire afterwards - even though ISF would be off for about 2 seconds? Instead of hardcasting soulfire and getting 100% uptime on the buff, but missing ~2½ seconds on immolate and corruption ticks?
The uptime on ISF doesn't really matter, as long as any other spell you cast is cast with ISF active?
EDIT: typos
|
|
|
|
|
03/09/11, 1:33 PM
|
#171
|
|
Von Kaiser
|
Moldust's routine is what I do. I just make sure that soul fire is the first cast that finishes after the buff falls off.
It "matters" to some extent, because soul fire's damage benefits from the buff too, but the D/CT on immolate and corruption and conflag is so much higher that it seems like it's better to just cast them first and cast SF without the benefit of the buff.
|
|
|
|
|
03/18/11, 2:55 AM
|
#172
|
|
Glass Joe
Orc Warlock
Blackhand (EU)
|
Just two mistakes in the BiS:
Stormwake and Bell aren't linked to their heroic versions.
|
|
|
|
|
03/18/11, 3:33 AM
|
#173
|
|
<3 Kitty
Blood Elf Warlock
Saurfang
|
Originally Posted by Thorgore
Just two mistakes in the BiS:
Stormwake and Bell aren't linked to their heroic versions.
|
I am using item tags to link, and have not found a way to control which version it will pick (normal/heroic). I'll have to link them directly, but haven't had the chance to yet.
|
|
|
|
03/21/11, 12:52 PM
|
#174
|
|
Von Kaiser
Goblin Warlock
Mal'Ganis (EU)
|

Originally Posted by Moldut
I've done some testing on a dummy, no buffs, trinkets off. I see, that dots do damage not from the buffs on target/player when they tick, but from what buffs were active when they were casted.
Results were consistent:
Corruption ticks:
1354 dmg when cast without ISF, no change when I got ISF up without recasting corr.
1462 dmg when cast with ISF up, no matter if the buff got off while corruption was on
Immolate ticks:
2844 same as above
3072 same as above
So my question is
The scenario: ISF got ~3 seconds left. Immolate got ~1 second and corruption is either off or have about 1 second letf as well. You just finished casting Incinerate or whatever.
Wouldn't it be better to refresh Immolate and corruption and thereby letting them tick with full dmg (as ISF was up when when they were cast) while hardcasting SoulFire afterwards - even though ISF would be off for about 2 seconds? Instead of hardcasting soulfire and getting 100% uptime on the buff, but missing ~2½ seconds on immolate and corruption ticks?
The uptime on ISF doesn't really matter, as long as any other spell you cast is cast with ISF active?
EDIT: typos
|
I guess your spell priority is messed up alot if you are getting in such a situation (at least in a patch work like encounter). Why would one cast incinerate while immolate is <2s AND corruption off?
One Tick of Immolate / Corruption accounts for lot more than 8% dmg on soulfire and still would be more than an 8% soulfire + 8% of a single corruption tick and 8% of a single immolate tick; even 8% of the full duration is a lesser dps loss than 1 tick (out of 7 or 8).
|
|
|
|
|
03/23/11, 4:52 PM
|
#175
|
|
Glass Joe
Worgen Warlock
Skullcrusher (EU)
|
Originally Posted by Estha
I guess your spell priority is messed up alot if you are getting in such a situation (at least in a patch work like encounter). Why would one cast incinerate while immolate is <2s AND corruption off?
One Tick of Immolate / Corruption accounts for lot more than 8% dmg on soulfire and still would be more than an 8% soulfire + 8% of a single corruption tick and 8% of a single immolate tick; even 8% of the full duration is a lesser dps loss than 1 tick (out of 7 or 8).
|
Thats not the point. Let me go through a scenario of spells cast before the questionable point:
Immolate and corruption is on. ISF is active.
Time before:
3,87 - 2,47: Incinerate (with backdraft on and my haste on dummy)
2,55 - 1,40: Chaos Bolt (Corr/immo still up, immo ~2 secs left, corr 1-2 secs left)
1,40 - 0,00: Incinerate (After this cast, immo has got ~1sec left, corruption the same or has fallen off)
As you can see, i don't begin casting filling spells (Incinerate/chaos bolt) while any dots are off, but they fall off during the cast. Would you wait for the buff to fall off and just stand doing nothing, but refreshing the dot the moment the last tick hits? I would pretty much believe this isn't optimal compared to casting something all the time. and thereby have a very small downtime on the dot
|
|
|
|
|
03/23/11, 5:18 PM
|
#176
|
|
Von Kaiser
Goblin Warlock
Mal'Ganis (EU)
|
Originally Posted by Moldut
Thats not the point. Let me go through a scenario of spells cast before the questionable point:
Immolate and corruption is on. ISF is active.
Time before:
3,87 - 2,47: Incinerate (with backdraft on and my haste on dummy)
2,55 - 1,40: Chaos Bolt (Corr/immo still up, immo ~2 secs left, corr 1-2 secs left)
1,40 - 0,00: Incinerate (After this cast, immo has got ~1sec left, corruption the same or has fallen off)
As you can see, i don't begin casting filling spells (Incinerate/chaos bolt) while any dots are off, but they fall off during the cast. Would you wait for the buff to fall off and just stand doing nothing, but refreshing the dot the moment the last tick hits? I would pretty much believe this isn't optimal compared to casting something all the time. and thereby have a very small downtime on the dot
|
You can refresh both dots the moment your Chaos Bolt is out, so you would neither sacrifice dot uptime nor active casting time nor clip any ticks.
|
|
|
|
|
03/24/11, 5:27 PM
|
#177
|
|
Glass Joe
Worgen Warlock
Skullcrusher (EU)
|
(So with 2 secs left on immolate, i can cast it (casttime close to 1 sec) without clipping ticks? doubt it)
That wasn't really constructive.
Originally Posted by Estha
You can refresh both dots the moment your Chaos Bolt is out, so you would neither sacrifice dot uptime nor active casting time nor clip any ticks.
|
So with immolate after CB, it would look like:
3,87 - 2,47: Incinerate (with backdraft on and my haste on dummy)
2,55 - 1,40: Chaos Bolt (Corr/immo still up, immo ~2 secs left, corr 1-2 secs left)
1,40 - 0,06: immolate+Corruption (As immolate had ~2 secs left at the start of the cast, it has about 0,7 secs left when it lands.)
Think this sums it up, if you've got any further comments, please read through the conversation again. I've got my original questions answered, so I'll stop posting useless stuff now
Last edited by Moldut : 03/24/11 at 5:51 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
03/24/11, 6:53 PM
|
#178
|
|
Von Kaiser
Goblin Warlock
Mal'Ganis (EU)
|
Originally Posted by Moldut
(So with 2 secs left on immolate, i can cast it (casttime close to 1 sec) without clipping ticks? doubt it)
That wasn't really constructive.
So with immolate after CB, it would look like:
3,87 - 2,47: Incinerate (with backdraft on and my haste on dummy)
2,55 - 1,40: Chaos Bolt (Corr/immo still up, immo ~2 secs left, corr 1-2 secs left)
1,40 - 0,06: immolate+Corruption (As immolate had ~2 secs left at the start of the cast, it has about 0,7 secs left when it lands.)
Think this sums it up, if you've got any further comments, please read through the conversation again. I've got my original questions answered, so I'll stop posting useless stuff now
|
Immolate: 15s duration; 5 ticks baseline; 3s interval baseline - refreshing it <2s won't clip any dots, you get an immolate with ~17s and get an additional tick within the new duration (the last tick of your old immolate)
Corruption: 18s duration; 6 ticks baseline; 3s interval baseline - nearly the same goes for corruption
|
|
|
|
|
03/30/11, 2:13 PM
|
#179
|
|
Glass Joe
Goblin Warlock
Spinebreaker (EU)
|
One thing that have been growing up in me a lot lately is how to handle dots and procs. Should I instantly recast my immolate, corruption and BoD when they proc, or should I do something else? When I write it down it sounds dumb to do something else, but I always feel like I'm doing something wrong when doing it. It's specially at the start, where I cast my dots (usually soul fire, immolate and then corruption) and then my Power Torrent + Volcano procs, where I recast my immolate and corruption.
Another thing is. Does proc counts when I start casting, or when I actually finish the cast? (thinking immolate here)
EDIT: Also, how much can I exactly clip? Though I know it's standing right above me, I'm a bit unsure about how to read it.
Last edited by Philijongon : 03/30/11 at 5:06 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
03/31/11, 3:51 AM
|
#180
|
|
Piston Honda
Human Warlock
Draenor (EU)
|
Originally Posted by Philijongon
One thing that have been growing up in me a lot lately is how to handle dots and procs. Should I instantly recast my immolate, corruption and BoD when they proc, or should I do something else? When I write it down it sounds dumb to do something else, but I always feel like I'm doing something wrong when doing it. It's specially at the start, where I cast my dots (usually soul fire, immolate and then corruption) and then my Power Torrent + Volcano procs, where I recast my immolate and corruption.
Another thing is. Does proc counts when I start casting, or when I actually finish the cast? (thinking immolate here)
EDIT: Also, how much can I exactly clip? Though I know it's standing right above me, I'm a bit unsure about how to read it.
|
As noted elsewhere, whether it's worth recasting DoTs in the presence of additional buffs is difficult to determine ahead of time to get a piece of "when X procs, you should always recast Y" style advice that is always correct because there are a lot of factors involved and the answer may change rapidly in real-time. It would be possible to make an arbitrarily complex decision process in Simcraft, or perhaps in-game if you were willing to write/find an add-on to take the information into account, but other than that you'll have to use a rule of thumb, such as the one you're already using. It's fairly easy to test such schemes in Simcraft, but I would suggest only testing something you think you could actually perform in the heat of battle. You'll note that the current Simcraft thread priority lists do not attempt to make use of such buffs in this way.
Procs are usually taken into account at the end of a cast. An exception to this rule is that haste effects and casting time effects must be present before you start casting to affect the cast itself (i.e. if you proc haste in the middle of a cast, it will not make that cast quicker.) If a haste proc occurs while casting a DoT (such as Immolate) then the cast itself will not benefit, but the DoT does.
When you clip a DoT it adds the duration after the next tick of the current DoT, which means that the perfect time (from an uptime & efficiency point of view) to refresh a DoT is any time between its second to last and last tick, remembering to account for the effect of Haste on tick interval. For example, Immolate ticks every 3 seconds and is effected by haste, so with 0 haste the perfect time to re-apply it is within 3 seconds of the end of the duration, and with 50% haste it's any time within 2 seconds of the end, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|