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12/22/10, 11:22 AM
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#16
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Desdemonique
Thanks to Jmickey, as well, for the great guide (finally!)
In answer to your question, Smithereens, it's fairly common knowledge now that Fel Flame is ONLY to be used during movement if your Immolate is about to fall off; otherwise, it's a DPS loss.
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In addition to using Fel Flame on the move, there are times when it is better than recasting Immo. Simcraft cannot account for many scenarios one faces during an encounter.
For example: in the case where you have immo and ISF with close to 2 seconds left on both timers. If you hard cast either, you are likely to have the other fall off. In this situation, you instant cast fel flame using 1 gcd (extending the duration of immo) and still have time to get off a hasted SF. In addition, if you had conflag about to come off CD, you could immediately cast it after refreshing ISF and then cast Immo.
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12/22/10, 1:25 PM
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#17
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Glass Joe
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Thank you so much for the effort put into this thread =).
The int > hit stat priority might pose an interesting situation in the future. Not so much now when it is relatively easy to reforge to hit the hit cap while maintaining the 30% haste threshold.
I'm thinking there might be a situation, as we approach BiS gear, where our gem combination maximizes int (due to the stat priorites) but our reforges might turn out better to reforge to haste instead of hit to reach the 50% haste threshold. This leaves us, maxed out on int, under the hit cap, and at the 50% haste cap.
Previously if hit > int. It would be a matter of reforging to hit cap, and excess to haste. Before gemming haste to the threshold if i am not wrong. This leaves us at a lower amount of int, maxed out on hit and at the 50% haste cap.
I am working of the assumption that the last 300-400 stat points of haste to hit 2639 are a higher priority then int and hit. Am I mistaken somewhere?
Thanks again for your efforts 
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12/22/10, 3:31 PM
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#18
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Piston Honda
Undead Warlock
Twisting Nether
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Remember that the only point of haste in the 50% ball park that is really worth a lot is the one from 2638->2639. You are better off stacking int and possibly hit until you can reforge/regem/re-enchant to push yourself over the magical threshold. Of course once you hit 50% and your immolate jumps, hit will jump massively too, assuming you are under cap.
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12/22/10, 5:07 PM
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#19
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Piston Honda
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mana feed is a personal dps talent in a patchwerk fight in that it buys you extra GCDs to incinerate. In an actual cata raid environment that opportunity cost drops to fel flame (assuming there is even something to hit during phase transitions or high movement)
The reason that is important is because D&G goes a long way to covering that fel flame gap, and Jinx depending on raid setup could in fact produce greater rDPS. Also every additional mob you have to put a CoE on is 1 GCD that you could have life tapped with. For example Halfus 1 CoE v. 4.
I am not saying that mana feed isn't the best fit for t11 content, but it clearly does not beat Jinx on magmaw if your raid has no other source for AoE CoE. So it shouldn't be listed as a required talent.
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12/22/10, 5:21 PM
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#20
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Scathbais
In addition to using Fel Flame on the move, there are times when it is better than recasting Immo. Simcraft cannot account for many scenarios one faces during an encounter.
For example: in the case where you have immo and ISF with close to 2 seconds left on both timers. If you hard cast either, you are likely to have the other fall off. In this situation, you instant cast fel flame using 1 gcd (extending the duration of immo) and still have time to get off a hasted SF. In addition, if you had conflag about to come off CD, you could immediately cast it after refreshing ISF and then cast Immo.
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I don't understand how you justify this. Every Destro spec will have Bane, so Immolate is 1.5 sec before haste. Barring movement, casting Fel Flame or recasting immolate take the same amount of time. In your scenario above, you would be better served by casting Immo and catching the end of ISF with your hard casted Soul Fire. If your goal is to catch the end of immo with conflag, you didn't save any time w/ Fel Flame. If you caught Immo with Fel Flame, you would have caught it with Conflag.
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12/22/10, 6:13 PM
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#21
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The Chairmaker
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Originally Posted by Scathbais
In addition to using Fel Flame on the move, there are times when it is better than recasting Immo. Simcraft cannot account for many scenarios one faces during an encounter.
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This isn't true at all - the simulator can and does account for the situation you describe, and if you want to simulate your solution to it (casting fel flame) all you have to do is come up with the right action priority list.
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12/22/10, 10:24 PM
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#22
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Glass Joe
Orc Warlock
Nathrezim (EU)
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If you have at least 2 Warlocks in your Raid it could be well worth keeping DI in the family.
Assuming my maths are correct, the 50% extra tick Haste value is reduced from 2639 to 2189 having two DIs, which is far easier to obtain at the moment.
Simcraft isnt yet offering an option for an extra DI so i cant check if its worth sacrificing the possible 9% DoT damage Buff uptime for the 3% extra Haste, I'd appreciate if someone could do the maths on this one.
In addition I'd like to know to what extend it would be beneficial to sacrifice hit for haste to get to the 50% "cap".
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12/22/10, 10:38 PM
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#23
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<3 Kitty
Blood Elf Warlock
Saurfang
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Originally Posted by Elmi
If you have at least 2 Warlocks in your Raid it could be well worth keeping DI in the family.
Assuming my maths are correct, the 50% extra tick Haste value is reduced from 2639 to 2189 having two DIs, which is far easier to obtain at the moment.
Simcraft isnt yet offering an option for an extra DI so i cant check if its worth sacrificing the possible 9% DoT damage Buff uptime for the 3% extra Haste, I'd appreciate if someone could do the maths on this one.
In addition I'd like to know to what extend it would be beneficial to sacrifice hit for haste to get to the 50% "cap".
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Swapping Dark Intent between warlocks is effectively a waste. The buff cannot stack past 3, in a any situation. This means that while 2 warlocks are swapping Dark Intent, 2x9% extra period damage is going to waste. The 3% extra haste is nice, but it would never be viable in a raid situation.
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12/23/10, 12:03 AM
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#24
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Glass Joe
Orc Warlock
Nathrezim (EU)
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Originally Posted by Jmickey
Swapping Dark Intent between warlocks is effectively a waste. The buff cannot stack past 3, in a any situation. This means that while 2 warlocks are swapping Dark Intent, 2x9% extra period damage is going to waste. The 3% extra haste is nice, but it would never be viable in a raid situation.
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First of all the whole theory in the mmo-champ DI thread is based on 372BiS gear and ideal conditions which dont apply to current raids on which my post is based.
Destro DI application uptime is in most fights more about 60-80% at my 353 ilvl gear and not like the stated 90% and certainly not with an average of 3 stacks. (Numbers taken out of WoL parses of current 25man Raid encounters of the past two weeks)
Secondly only the pDPS gain of Shadows (1470), Fire Mages (600), Ferals (780) and MM Hunter (840) would exceed the extra tick pDPS gain of a Destro, which is about 400DPS.
And consider here that the pDPS gain of these classes at the moment would be way lower than estimated because of the lower application uptime of the Buff and because of the huge gear-difference.
For example (at least in my raid) are Shadows about 4-6k and Mages and Ferals about 2k below the Warlocks in DPS and not about the same like in the mmo-champs thread.
TL: DR:
Are you really sure that the rDPS gain of a DI on a not-Warlock on current raiding conditions exceeds the gain of a DI share between WLs for two times the 50% extra Tick?
Last edited by Elmi : 12/23/10 at 12:51 AM.
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12/23/10, 10:13 AM
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#25
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Glass Joe
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In regards to haste thresholds:
To reach the 30% point without the 5% caster haste buff - ((1.30/1.15/1.03)-1)*12805 = 1248.6
I'm curious as to how stat weights behave around this threshold, and if it would be beneficial (assuming you plan to raid 10 man without the 5% buff) to shoot for this number and then start stacking crit. In this tier, since it's quite difficult to reach the 50% threshould at 2639 while not in BiS, would 1248 be a better number to shoot for?
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12/23/10, 6:28 PM
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#26
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Glass Joe
Gnome Warlock
Kor'gall (EU)
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Originally Posted by Jmickey
This line:
/petattack [target=target, exists]
Is the line that will cause the imp to start attacking. The rule is to prevent the macro causing you to auto target mobs if you current target dies and have you imp begin attacking it.
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Don't know if it's a bug on my side but I needed to put ..exists]; firebolt (so with semicolon) to make it work otherwise the imp part won't fire up.
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12/23/10, 9:35 PM
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#27
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Angyarr
Don't know if it's a bug on my side but I needed to put ..exists]; firebolt (so with semicolon) to make it work otherwise the imp part won't fire up.
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That makes it effectively a dead conditional. IE. it will cast firebolt regardless, completely negating the point of the conditional in the first place. That said, I tend to prefer a /cast [@pettarget,exists] Firebolt, as that will do the same thing, and won't force my pet to attack my target if for some reason I want it to be attacking a different target instead. It also won't force-start my pet's attack, if I for some reason don't want it to be attacking.
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12/24/10, 8:40 AM
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#28
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Glass Joe
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Here's an easier (albeit, slightly annoying if you hate micro-managing) way of doing the pet macro:
Keep your Imp on Passive.
Bind the following macro to all the spells you use as Destruction, except any channeled spells:
#showtooltip SPELLNAME
/cast [pet:Imp] Firebolt
/cast SPELLNAME
For channeled spells, such as Rain of Fire (I also use this for Shadowflame, Shadowfury and Summon Infernal), you can macro the /petattack command to the spell, like so:
#showtooltip Rain of Fire
/petattack
/cast Rain of Fire
This not only exploits the latency cast for your pet - which effectively increases his DPS, and yours - but it also ensures that you won't have any more "WTF broke my Fear?!" moments courtesy of your Imp.
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12/24/10, 8:42 AM
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#29
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The Chairmaker
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Except that macro will make your imp run up and attack the boss while you're precasting soul fire during the pull countdown, potentially getting him killed and at the very least annoying everyone who's trying to min-max their prepot time.
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12/24/10, 8:48 AM
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#30
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Banned
Undead Warrior
Gorgonnash (EU)
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Nice piece of work. Keep on working!
Just some additions from my side to make it a little bit better for players who really want to improve their play (regarding heroics). I see many warlocks (in random groups) who do not utilized Shadow and Flame, Curses, Banes and Shadow Fury as much as they should do. So, a nice introduction or placing them before the "real spell rotation" in brackets instead of a foot note would be nice.
Note to Curses (more general):
If you don't have a plague DK, moonkin or assassination rogue you should put Curse of the Elements, else you can provide Curse of Tongues on caster mobs providing a bigger window of reaction or Curse of Weakness on melee mobs which means a -10% physical damage and provides nice damage reduction to your tanks (yes they hopefully have already specced into their damage reduction on their own).
About Banes (right use of Bane of Havoc):
I do not know, why Bane of Doom should be so much better than Bane of Havoc. Especially on add heavy fights the Bane of Havoc (should) provide better DPS through to AE abilities (if you have 7 adds you do 7*15% of the damage to the baned as well, this should easily be better than Bane of Doom. And on groups of 3-5 mobs you can bane one with BoH, a second with BoD and the rest with Bane of Agony (since BoH and BoD can only be active on ONE target at any time). Perhaps there could be a side note about it. I just know that on add heavy fights most of the warlocks tend to bane the main target and not splitting their damage onto the others.
It provide a nice 2000DPS on Ogrimmar test dummies (BoH on the boss, BoD on a level 70 and 2x BoA) over 24seconds for 4mins at all (costing 3000mana BoH, 4x 2000mana BoD and 20x 2000mana BoA, 51k mana at all).
About Corruption:
Not used as much as needed. It is better then Chaos Bolt or Incinerate (damage-wise) and should be used more frequently. Many destruction locks do not use it or clip it (see affliction thread for further information).
Imp's Singe:
Magical dispel, makes it easier for the healer, costs 2400 demon mana (which can easily be refund by Mana Feed). Nice to use if the healer runs out of mana/lack of dispelling in heroics (I had to change my UI to implement a debuff tool)
Banish (general):
Usable on demon's (nice on demonic pet too) and elementals. You can use a second banish to cancel the effect. Only one banish at any time. (should perhaps be feature too)
Netherward:
In my humble opinion this one is totally underrated in heroics and raids on magic heavy encounters. It absorbs damage and reduces incoming damage of the same school by 30%. It's so good too use in void zones or similiar effects or before AE shadowbolts but I still see many warlocks who take 15-30k damage. With Netherward it would be around 8k maximum. It should totally be featured in a destruction warlock guide.
Back to some general discussion.
Dark Intent (more general):
A new buff at level 83 providing 3% haste (aka 306haste rating) and provides 3% increased periodic damage/healing. It is not as good as it is for afflicition locks but should be used either on those (if they are not haste capped), healing druids (so many hots) and then onto other classes except melees (perhaps on DK but warrior, rogue and paladin do not gain much periodic damage of it). If no other classes are around you can use it on your Imp, providing some nice synergy with Burning Ember. I would like to see some calculations which class it is best to use on and what the Imp gains from it.
Fear Glyph (major):
It is a non-damage glyph but perhaps the best glyph we got with Cata due to its huge value in heroic instances. It adds a "cover" effect on your fear, making your target stay in place and not running through the instance and pulling other groups thus giving us a stable CC effect (like Sheep or Hex) on a 5 sec CD.
Glyph of Soul Link (major):
Not the best choice but sharing 5% additional with your pet can be very good in AE situations (and you heal your pet via damage thus costing no healer mana).
Glyph of Shadow Bolt (major):
Not a very good choice but should be considered regarding Shadow and Flame debuffing. Would not recommend it.
Glyph of Ritual of Souls (minor):
Very good because 70% percent less mana (of 14k), makes Ritual of Souls usable in combat, too (very very high level...)
Macros:
The Imp macro is very nice. I would add two other macros, too. But first: You should macro your Immolate, Incinerate, Conflagerate and Chaosbolt to a) add the Imp macro b) add the /cast Demon Soul and /cast <trinkets>. It provides better use and you do not have to care about 4 additional CDs (once there was a calculation about using trinkets etc during heroism/blood lust or not, the dps was exactly the same, so bind it to your spells instead of waiting).
#showtooltip Soul Burn (this shows your Soul Burn CD)
/cast Soul Burn (you can use a [mod: <modifier>] if you do not like the idea of two Soul Fire in a row due to Empowered Imp)
/cast Soul Fire
This macro disables your pet so it will not cast Firebolt on any Sheeps, Frogs, Penguins or CC'd targets. You either need to use /petdefensive or a /petattack in your offensive macros. I use it in Bane of Doom/Curse of Elements/Immolate so it will attack the focus target.
#showtooltip Fear
/petpassive
/cast Fear
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