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Havnt · 06/01/11, 11:51 PM

If you're absolutely trying to min/max, it might be worth it to remember that using fel flame to refresh UA will update the UA with new procs. If the UA has been up for shorter than the difference of a max UA minus the FF addition time, it is obviously better to refresh it with a FF.

That said, in practice, it is also best to hold burning your 4pt11 proc if your existing UA is both stronger than it will be when refreshed or will reach its final tick before the FF lands unless you have nothing better to do (eg. moving when there is no need to tap/no nightfall.) I'm not sure how or if its possible to write this into the sim.

Edit: I believe that, with all the current discussion on updating dots when procs line up, that section 7.4 be updated unless this is disproven.

Nfariessence · 06/06/11, 12:08 PM

Warlocks already have a significant ramp up period for their DoTs as Affliction. They have to apply 3 DoTs, (4 sec), apply Haunt (1.5 sec) and apply to Shadow Bolts (5 sec) before our DoTs start ticking for full damage. That's 10.5 seconds just to start doing 50% of their total damage. Then as upkeep, they have to do a Haunt and a UA (3 sec) every 15 seconds, and another BoA every 24 seconds if they're going to be multi dotting. They can use Soul Swap to a 2nd target but it has a 15 second cooldown and requires another 7.5 seconds to stack Shadow Embrace for 15% more damage to the 2nd target. Then if they want to keep it up it takes a pair of GCDs (SS + SB) every 15 seconds. And that disregards the fact that trying to keep Soul Swap rolling on 2 targets is problematic due to the 15 second cooldown, 15 second duration on UA, 18 second duration on Corruption, and 24 second duration on BoA... if you refresh SS at 15 seconds you clip Corruption and the last 5 ticks (the strongest ticks btw) of BoA. If you do it at 24 seconds to keep the biggest BoA ticks you lose uptime on UA and Corruption... and even then you're only doing 38.5% of your total damage because you can't have Haunt on more than one target...

Trying to do that as a full time rotation is... stressful to say the very least and not possible on more than 1 additional target.

Well, there goes that: Glyph of Soul Swap now gives Soul Swap a 30 sec cooldown, up from 15 sec.

This will most likely kill Affliction's ability to effectively keep DOTs up on multiple targets. I wonder if this makes it worth having the glyph, or even keeping up multiple low duration DOTs like UA or Corruption anymore?

turturin · 06/06/11, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by Nfariessence

Well, there goes that: Glyph of Soul Swap now gives Soul Swap a 30 sec cooldown, up from 15 sec.

This will most likely kill Affliction's ability to effectively keep DOTs up on multiple targets. I wonder if this makes it worth having the glyph, or even keeping up multiple low duration DOTs like UA or Corruption anymore?

This doesn't change affliction's ability to multi-dot, it changes the way you will need to do it. Whether the glyph is worth it will be subjective, but my guess is most warlocks will not use it anymore. Based on DPCT, it will always be worth it to run dots on multiple targets when they can run full duration.

Odeen · 06/06/11, 4:30 PM

Originally Posted by turturin

This doesn't change affliction's ability to multi-dot, it changes the way you will need to do it. Whether the glyph is worth it will be subjective, but my guess is most warlocks will not use it anymore. Based on DPCT, it will always be worth it to run dots on multiple targets when they can run full duration.

With the 30 seconds cooldown, the CoA glyph with the soul swap glyph will still likely prove worthwhile on multi-target fights.

• Meaning · 06/07/11, 8:39 PM

The other major glyph options that have a real possibility to increase DPS are? I mean, if you disregard Soul Link and Demonic Circle as necessary for staying alive.

Edit: Post was a subtle jab at the idea that, if you're going for 99.5% of max DPS or whatever, you must've long since built up the situational awareness necessary to not stand in fire.

VoidStar · 06/08/11, 3:51 AM

Originally Posted by Meaning

The other major glyph options that have a real possibility to increase DPS are? I mean, if you disregard Soul Link and Demonic Circle as necessary for staying alive.

Affliction arguably has the broadest range of applicable Major glyphs of any of the Warlock specs, and while they're often not a direct, personal DPS increase, they often offer significant raid benefits. That's really the intended role of major glyphs anwyay: Prime's add DPS, Majors add utility, Minors add flavour.

The standard choices of [Glyph of Life Tap], [Glyph of Shadow Bolt] and [Glyph of Soul Swap] (as long as it's not pure single-target) are the most direct, personal DPS increases, but certainly not the only choices for the best raid dps.

[Glyph of Soul Link] is a brilliant survivability tool to the extent that I dislike going to many heroic encounters without it, [Glyph of Healthstone] and [Glyph of Felhunter] somewhat less so in PvE but may have encounter-specific uses where survival is paramount.

[Glyph of Demonic Circle], as you pointed out, can be a survivability or convenience boost, and thus a round-about DPS increase.

[Glyph of Soulstone] (despite its tooltip) means that whoever you res with it has a much better chance of not immediately getting killed again, which is of significant raid benefit, if not usually much of a personal one. This can arguably be overcome by proper timing (or people not getting killed in the first place!) but it's a serious boost to the ability.

The "control" glyphs [Glyph of Shadowflame], [Glyph of Howl of Terror], [Glyph of Fear] or arguably even [Glyph of Death Coil] (though I admit: this is a bit tenuous!) have a lot less of a role in raiding, but could be swapped in for any encounter where they were useful.

So if we didn't use Soul Swap anymore then there's plenty of other choices, though it is certainly hard to compare an undeniable DPS increase (presuming a second target is available, even with 30 second cooldown) with, say, a 5% damage reduction, or a +40% HP SS res. Really though: any encounter where raid damage or deaths are not a concern probably isn't a progression fight where we really need to be maximising our DPS anyway.

• Meaning · 06/08/11, 1:10 PM

I don't disagree - there are a ton of options available that might be situationally or encounter-specific useful. However, the last time we discussed it, the Soulstone glyph only affects the warlock himself (Warlock Simple Questions Thread: Cataclysm Edition).

Nfariessence · 06/08/11, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Meaning

I don't disagree - there are a ton of options available that might be situationally or encounter-specific useful. However, the last time we discussed it, the Soulstone glyph only affects the warlock himself (Warlock Simple Questions Thread: Cataclysm Edition).

And then it got stealth-hotfixed to work again. I'll check again tonight, but I'm fairly certain they rez with 70% health now.

Geo101 · 06/10/11, 7:13 AM

Originally Posted by Nfariessence

And then it got stealth-hotfixed to work again. I'll check again tonight, but I'm fairly certain they rez with 70% health now.

Yes it does. Just checked now and can confirm it still works. The tooltip still says (when you're glyphed) 70%hp and 30% mana on target aswell.

Belzeearh · 06/11/11, 1:36 PM

From the OP:

[top]Macros

The following macro will only work if you do NOT place Soul Swap on you bars, it will also not change the icon when you inhale DoTs.

/cast [nomod] Soul Swap
/cast [mod:shift, @focus][] Soul Swap

Here is my macro for SoulSwap, maybe some find useful and more convenient

#showtooltip Soul Swap
/cast [target=mouseover,exists,harm] Soul Swap;Soul Swap

Sylvre · 06/15/11, 2:02 AM

How big of a DPS difference in a DL spec vs a SB spec. The sims suggest that there's only a minimal difference and that a DL spec gets better with more movement. How does that play out in practice? If the DPS difference is minimal, wouldn't the health return make DL the superior spec?

netsach · 06/15/11, 10:20 AM

DL gets better with movement because of when you couldn't fully cast a shadowbolt you could still get 1 or 2 DL ticks before canceling the cast (think Atramedes P2 for example), thus upping the dps. Another increase comes from the fact that DL is another debuff, which improves your felhunter dps. Then again with DL spec, you have mana feed, which reduces the need to life tap (increasing dps) and lowering the burden on the healers who have to heal you back.

The only "drawback" i see of using DL spec is that you'd lose a little DPET on refreshing the ShadowAndFlame debuff (cast time not reduced by talents), but that's only if you're not able to refresh it exclusively with Nightfall / Glyph of corruption proc or if noone else (fire mage or another warlock) maintains it. Finally there's the "high latency" issue for timing channel spells when following DL with another cast time spell.

The fact that DL provides higher survivability (less life tap + better self healing), and that's enough justification for me !

Naforce · 06/17/11, 7:55 PM

Of course it still is a dps gain, you can use it to apply dots to a new target or just the first time on the 2nd target and then proceed with manual dotting. It's a dps-gain over not using any glyph!

Ruthenia · 06/19/11, 7:29 AM

Fel Flame is a Shadow-Fire Hybrid spell, so does it fully benefit from Shadow Mastery?

And does the same answer apply to Cataclysm as well?

Keldion · 06/20/11, 9:49 AM

Originally Posted by Ruthenia

Fel Flame is a Shadow-Fire Hybrid spell, so does it fully benefit from Shadow Mastery?

And does the same answer apply to Cataclysm as well?

Fel Flame benefits from from Shadow Mastery, Cataclysm, Fiery Apocalypse, Demonic Knowledge, and Demonic Pact. Note that DK's bonus only applies once to the damage.